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Is Final Fantasy XII good? If so, when does it get good?
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Jan 23, 2016 23:52
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X-2 suffers from a similar problem that XIII-2 does in that it has the framework of a great combat system but the game is either so poorly designed, so easy, or both, that you never have a reason for interacting with it.Super Ninja Fish posted:Is Final Fantasy XII good? If so, when does it get good? FF12 is a great game and if you aren't sold on it by the time you have to cross the sandseas to Raithwall's tomb (the lowest point of the game) then you should probably pack it up. IZJS is the superior version by far.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:01
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:X-2 suffers from a similar problem that XIII-2 does in that it has the framework of a great combat system but the game is either so poorly designed, so easy, or both, that you never have a reason for interacting with it. X-2 has a lot of really stupidly hard poo poo in it.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:04
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Baal posted:X-2 has a lot of really stupidly hard poo poo in it. Truth. Though it certainly isn't consistently hard, and most of the ridiculous stuff is optional. Still, it wasn't a complete cake walk if you wanted to engage in some more challenging stuff using that dope ATB system.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:16
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Super Ninja Fish posted:Is Final Fantasy XII good? If so, when does it get good? no and it doesnt
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Jan 24, 2016 00:22
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esperterra posted:Truth. Though it certainly isn't consistently hard, and most of the ridiculous stuff is optional. Oh yeah absolutely, but I feel like Baralai is something of a learning curve and other poo poo like Den of Woe can actually be kind of rough. As you said it's optional, but a lot of that game is optional content and even after a certain point regular encounters can be kind of tough. Nothing beats Angra Mainyu and the Via Infinito though, both of those exist to rock your balls.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:34
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:no and it doesnt I agree with this sentiment but of course you'll get varying opinions. But if you don't like it now, there's a very good chance you won't like it later,
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Jan 24, 2016 00:38
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The White Dragon posted:I agree with this sentiment but of course you'll get varying opinions. But if you don't like it now, there's a very good chance you won't like it later, I don't know if I agree with this. I've heard from multiple people that they didn't like the gambit and battle system, until they went back and tried the game later and it "clicked", and suddenly they loved it. I had some of the most fun fights I've had in a FF game with XII and rank it among the top of the series, but it's a pretty divisive game (welcome to the FF thread!).
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Jan 24, 2016 00:48
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Baal posted:X-2 has a lot of really stupidly hard poo poo in it. Yeah but it's all in the Via Infinito (unless International/HD added a whole bunch of poo poo I haven't played those versions yet) and generally falls under the "poorly designed" part of my statement. In a game where the main gimmick is that you can switch jobs mid battle, I... 1) Never had reason to do so. 2) Only ever used 3 jobs, and never at once Three warriors from the word go. Eventually shifting to two Dark Knights and an Alchemist when the game got hard enough that I actually had to heal, at all. And two Dark Knights murdered drat near everything in one round so there was never a reason to even flipflop the Alchemist to/from Dark Knight either.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:50
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I love FFXII, but it's just me. I'm the only one.
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Jan 24, 2016 00:50
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:Yeah but it's all in the Via Infinito (unless International/HD added a whole bunch of poo poo I haven't played those versions yet) and generally falls under the "poorly designed" part of my statement. You should've tried out the other jobs, they're fun + you might've enjoyed the game more
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Jan 24, 2016 00:53
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Schwartzcough posted:I don't know if I agree with this. I've heard from multiple people that they didn't like the gambit and battle system, until they went back and tried the game later and it "clicked", and suddenly they loved it. Owing to the way I played it back when I played it, there wasn't a whole lot to click in my case. My strategy was "put the most powerful weapon you have on Basch, and then keep Berserk+Haste+Brave up on him permanently and instantly glass everything that isn't some kind of superboss or an annoying gently caress-you mob." It worked for everything, except when bosses did that dumb paling move. Paling, the skill that single-handedly made me hate the game. e: nah that's unfair to paling. it had a lot of help from the story and the soundtrack and the setting and the environments and... well, it was the opposite of the kind of game i enjoy i guess Fur20 fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 00:55
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:Is this the Adroa/Verdelet mission (#4)? Let's see these guys are resistant or immune to all elements, have really low stagger points, and very little HP. Lots of little weak enemies is one of the two reasons to use Cerberus (COM/COM/COM). Not only that but with the resistances to elements. Yes that's the one. However my party is Vanille/Hope/Snow. I unlocked COM for Hope but it was underwhelming when I tried it so I forgot abut it and have been investing his points elsewhere. It's still a poorly designed system though, or one that demands you use all of your party for every little situation. I was looking up a character tier thread on another site that says that, in spite of Snow's crap Mag stat, he's one of the best Ravagers because he has a very simple animation. Meanwhile, Sazh sucks because all of his poo poo is ridiculously stylish. Even when I played as him and Vanille I knew his posin' was simply not compatible with this battle system. You want speed and DPS here and wasting time being cool might earn you style points in another game but it loses you stars in this one. It's simply inevitable that some characters are better than others in most games. However being bette or worse because of animations and a useless ranking system is pretty dumb. Super Ninja Fish posted:Is Final Fantasy XII good? If so, when does it get good? Yes it is a good game but it takes a while. The first few dungeons/areas are pretty boring. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 00:59
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:Yeah but it's all in the Via Infinito (unless International/HD added a whole bunch of poo poo I haven't played those versions yet) and generally falls under the "poorly designed" part of my statement.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:04
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Schwartzcough posted:I don't know if I agree with this. I've heard from multiple people that they didn't like the gambit and battle system, until they went back and tried the game later and it "clicked", and suddenly they loved it. I had some of the most fun fights I've had in a FF game with XII and rank it among the top of the series, but it's a pretty divisive game (welcome to the FF thread!). Set up gambits Try not to fall asleep as the game mostly plays itself
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Jan 24, 2016 01:07
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Set up gambits When I see people post comments like this I can be pretty sure that they didn't try any of the tough hunts or optional bosses as soon as they became available. The game can be hard as balls for the challenging content if you don't do crazy grinding, and it's pretty well designed so you can't just rely on gambits. Many bosses and hunts will specifically change their attack patterns so stuff you had to do at the beginning of the fight will not work at the end of the fight. Yeah, you can gambit your way through most of the trash, but I kept myself busy stealing.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:18
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I did all the hunts and optional bosses. Yes it was more involved, but the combat was still terrible.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:20
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The White Dragon posted:Paling, the skill that single-handedly made me hate the game. XII was the most indifferent I've ever been playing a FF. The combat never clicked for me, and while the soundtrack works for the setting, I only remember the Esper theme and Empire's theme. Oh, and the Crystal Maze because I got lost in there for ages. I remember being more interested in seeing the game from the Judges perspective than the protagonists - I was more engaged watching them do their thing, than whatever Vaan and co were up to.  And yeah, Palings are the most lazy bullshit enemy skill.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:22
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Schwartzcough posted:When I see people post comments like this I can be pretty sure that they didn't try any of the tough hunts or optional bosses as soon as they became available. I finished all the optional bosses, most of them as soon as I discovered them. It was stlll my experience. At best I had to take over briefly and what I had to do wasn't hugely interesting. ' I've said ti before but FFXII would be a much better game with actual complex MMO-style mechanics in play. The Gambit system isn't a bad idea on its own but it is when the games mechanics are as limited as FFXII. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 01:23
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I played a better gambit system rpg and it was called Dragon age Origins, because it let me do cool stuff despite the combat mostly being AI.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:24
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Pesky Splinter posted:XII was the most indifferent I've ever been playing a FF. The combat never clicked for me, and while the soundtrack works for the setting, I only remember the Esper theme and Empire's theme. Oh, and the Crystal Maze because I got lost in there for ages. 100% this. I gave 0 fucks about Ashe and her revenge quest. Seemed like all the interesting stuff happened offscreen or to other people. Also I can't recall a single music track from 12. What a completely bland and unmemorable game.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:24
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:Yeah but it's all in the Via Infinito (unless International/HD added a whole bunch of poo poo I haven't played those versions yet) and generally falls under the "poorly designed" part of my statement. This sounds like the most boring way to play a game possible and I'm sorry you feel like the game has to force you to do it to experiment at all, except it did according to your post so this is a weird point to make.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:26
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I saved and reset, and was able to get to the next part of the game. FFXII is all right, gently caress the undead though. Holy Christ on a cracker I do not like fighting those monsters.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:27
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Super Ninja Fish posted:Is Final Fantasy XII good? If so, when does it get good? Try the IZJS version and see for yourself. As you've probably noticed from this thread, it's very much a "love it or hate it" game and it'll probably be best to see for yourself which side you're on.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:27
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NikkolasKing posted:It's still a poorly designed system though, or one that demands you use all of your party for every little situation. If the game doesn't at least try to force you to use every character then THAT makes it a poorly designed system. FF13 is a game where every character has there own strengths and weaknesses and thus should have there own distinct use, which FF13 mostly succeeds at though undermines itself in a few areas. quote:I was looking up a character tier thread on another site that says that, in spite of Snow's crap Mag stat, he's one of the best Ravagers because he has a very simple animation. Meanwhile, Meanwhile, Sazh sucks because all of his poo poo is ridiculously stylish. Even when I played as him and Vanille I knew his posin' was simply not compatible with this battle system. You want speed and DPS here and wasting time being cool might earn you style points in another game but it loses you stars in this one. It's amazing how  people can be about animation speed in FF13. Though if we must sperg about it it doesn't really surprise that Sazh comes out the loser, because he gets the short end of the stick on almost everything, almost. Once Hope gets Haste there's really no reason to keep using Sazh. Terrible Strength, Terrible Magic, Good HP though Snow outclasses him on that and every other stat. In spite of this he can still clean house if you match the right weapon to right situation, and you take the time to upgrade most of his weapons. And then there's his Blitz. Which, rather than be a simple AOE like everyone else, is a sweep of 8 shots at 50% damage each. Not too great against a lot of things, but it devastates enemies big enough to be hit by all 8 shots, especially if you match it up with a high STR weapon like the Pleiades Hi-Powers. With a combo like this his Strength deficiency compared to Lightning or Fang basically ceases to matter.Don't let the spergs ruin the characters you like, but also accept that the characters you like aren't going to be able to do absolutely everything for you. This is RPGs 101 and FF13 is if nothing else a game that tries its damndest to teach its players how to play RPGs.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:02
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NikkolasKing posted:It's simply inevitable that some characters are better than others in most games. However being bette or worse because of animations and a useless ranking system is pretty dumb. Don't you like FFXII? Because animations determining character usefulness is actually relevant there too. It only really matters if you're trying to absolutely min-max every single thing and it's entirely possibly and relatively easy to 5-star everything using Sazh despite his weaknesses as a character. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 02:05
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Character animations go a long way in games in general, this is not a new thing. It's not like a fighting game or stylish action game though where those are 100% factored into either competitive play or combo ability. Animations do matter towards making characters better, but it doesn't like crack the game open and make it so you only use those characters. If you want to optimize the best play you possibly can, then yes you do that, but if you're just playing the game or want to use certain characters you are not going to die because Sazh's stats are lower than Snow's or Sazh's animations are slower.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:09
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Sazh was the shoe in character for people who like to micromanage attacks because of the blitz thing and his limit break or whatever they were called was as good as Lightning's for stagger gauge. He basically had Lightning's stagger gauge manipulating potential, while blitz made him do damage like Fang. It looks really weird to call him out as a bad and then include Snow in your party.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:19
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ImpAtom posted:Don't you like FFXII? Because animations determining character usefulness is actually relevant there too. BAAAAWWWWWW BALTHIER'S GUN ANIMATION TAKES .5 SECONDS LONGER THAN EVERY OTHER CHARACTER, WORST MECHANIC JOB IN THE GAME, MAKE THAT MOTHERFUCKER A WHITE MAGE BECAUSE HE HAS INNATE STEAL AND NEVER LOOK BACK BAAAAWWWWWWW fake edit: Oh you're talking about FFXIII aren't you? I just saw Sazh there. Nevermind. Super Ninja Fish posted:Is Final Fantasy XII good? If so, when does it get good? The base game, even I'll admit is a bit boring. The International Zodiac Job System: Brave Up Deluxe: You'll Never Fight Alone: Advance is a straight upgrade in 97% every way. The only things I think it lacks is fixed voice acting from the echo chamber of the hyperbolic time machine, and I believe, don't quote me, some of the chest RNG has been modified so, IIRC, you can't get more than one Zodiac Spear.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:27
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FFXII is as bad as Gologle
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Jan 24, 2016 03:30
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The White Dragon posted:I agree with this sentiment but of course you'll get varying opinions. But if you don't like it now, there's a very good chance you won't like it later, Well, is it known for having a extremely slow start? At first, you're just going on a hunt, then going around a desert touching a stone to 4 things, then going into the sewers to sneak into a party. Pretty weak stuff. After that, you meet some guys and it looks like something is finally happening but it just leads to a prison dungeon and more desert wandering. Then you're back in the first town and have to walk to three different places in the town finding people. 7 hours. I didn't like the first few hours when you were by yourself but once you got characters, it became okay. That's where I'm at now. It's okay. It really feels like you should be able to freely attack without waiting for the ATB. But the fight system isn't bad. It's kind of intriguing setting up a RPG to play itself. I've never done that before. Although I'm not sure yet about the license system and needing to do hunts for money. That seems like unnecessary tedium right now.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:32
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Super Ninja Fish posted:It really feels like you should be able to freely attack without waiting for the ATB. But the fight system isn't bad. It's kind of intriguing setting up a RPG to play itself. I've never done that before. Although I'm not sure yet about the license system and needing to do hunts for money. That seems like unnecessary tedium right now. I...don't think ff is for you lol
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Jan 24, 2016 03:38
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Gologle posted:I...don't think ff is for you lol Your name is misspelled. Did you know?
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Jan 24, 2016 03:52
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Super Ninja Fish posted:Your name is misspelled. Did you know? He's not really one for "learning" or "cognitive reasoning"
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Jan 24, 2016 04:04
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Super Ninja Fish posted:Well, is it known for having a extremely slow start? At first, you're just going on a hunt, then going around a desert touching a stone to 4 things, then going into the sewers to sneak into a party. Pretty weak stuff. After that, you meet some guys and it looks like something is finally happening but it just leads to a prison dungeon and more desert wandering. Then you're back in the first town and have to walk to three different places in the town finding people. 7 hours. It takes a while to start events going, and I've vague memories that it's quite leisurely at taking its time when stuff is actually happening. It depends on what's keeping you engaged; I found myself exploring poo poo - which is nice, but I ended forgetting where I needed to go to progress stuff occasionally. The protagonists' individual stories randomly pop in and out of focus at set points; Vaan's fades into the background until the very end, and it's mostly the Basch and Ashe show for a while, with them driving the plot.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:05
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:Don't let the spergs ruin the characters you like, but also accept that the characters you like aren't going to be able to do absolutely everything for you. This is RPGs 101 and FF13 is if nothing else a game that tries its damndest to teach its players how to play RPGs. I have used one solid, unchanging party in every RPG I've ever played. When you have the choice I mean. It has never failed me. You're right every character has strengths and weaknesses. That doesn't mean I couldn't beat everything in FFIX with a party of Zidane, Eiko, Amarant and Freya. I was never forced to sub in Steiner for something. ImpAtom posted:Don't you like FFXII? Because animations determining character usefulness is actually relevant there too. Not really. It's only a factor with Balthier/Guns and Fran/Bows. I never had a problem with any party I used. Just give them a sword and they all stab just as good. zedprime posted:Sazh was the shoe in character for people who like to micromanage attacks because of the blitz thing and his limit break or whatever they were called was as good as Lightning's for stagger gauge. He basically had Lightning's stagger gauge manipulating potential, while blitz made him do damage like Fang. It looks really weird to call him out as a bad and then include Snow in your party. Snow is much better than Sazh gameplay wise. Although right now I'm hating Hope's AI. In every battle in the history of this game, he always starts by casting Protect. This one battle I need him to do that, he starts by casting Bravery and Faith. I don't need buffs you idiot, I need protection from the Centurion Blade while I let Poison, Deprotect and Snow kill the Tyrant. XIII-2 letting you change party leader mid-battle was possibly its greatest improvement. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 04:30
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Sazh is the best character mechanically because a chocobo lives in his head that becomes a time-traveling human/chocobo hybrid that sells stuff to Lightning's sister and he's too old for all this poo poo.Gologle posted:I...don't think ff is for you lol Tell me the loving essence of Final Fantasy you bastard.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:50
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Reminder: We're talking about optimizing character animations in a series where someone had to invent a NSGNSNCNONENNENBB Challenge.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:00
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Super Ninja Fish posted:It really feels like you should be able to freely attack without waiting for the ATB. FF12 assigned weights to each animation, physical and magical, then put a cap on how many animation can happen at once using those weights. A lot of the time physical combos can happen from different characters at the same time, but it's easily possible to end up waiting for one spell to finish before the next person can cast. Even enemy attacks can be delayed because of this. Presumably this is due to hardware limitations of the time. Having an ATB system is just one way the devs tried to space animations out to keep the hardware from making GBS threads itself. Corvinus fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 05:03
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NikkolasKing posted:Not really. It's only a factor with Balthier/Guns and Fran/Bows. I never had a problem with any party I used. Just give them a sword and they all stab just as good. Nah. It's relevant to everything. If you want to minmax there is a best party for it. You just... don't need to minmax to that degree do everything. Which is also true of FFXIII.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:11
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