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Defendyourbase.net is still down, I have to assume that the feds are begining to try to control the message. That's a good thing as I see it. Of course that oval office Santilli is still getting poo poo out over 4G I assume. I'm a little confused why the FBI aren't using Stingray and all of that military grade communications denial crap that they have to shut down all communications from the insurrectionists.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:25
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The ecological destruction is what keeps me tuning in to this disaster. If this loving joke occupation isn't quashed I feel like we're on a slippery slope to being like the Amazon or Indonesia where a bunch of no-nothings just poo poo all over the land because they have no idea how to or why we preserve land. They gently caress it up, extract the resources, then move to the next tract of land all so they can feed their precious band of signing children in matching outfits while bending a knee to a dead God while they wave the flag like they really care about America. gently caress these people.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:34
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SedanChair posted:
I agree with everything you said here. But think for a moment what a propaganda coup an assault on that refuge will be. There will be a livestream of the room the women and children are huddling in while sounds of gunfire echo off the walls. Many of these insurgents have been filmed, and little memorial montages of their happy moments will line Infowars, Drudge, and Breitbart. Any effective blockade to prevent resupply will involve hundreds of law enforcement officers and armored vehicles- images of which will make the domestic pacification force the right wing has spent decades prophecizing about will seem like it is really here. While it might be the technically just thing to do, it would almost certainly lead to an increase in violence. I want these fuckers to face consequences too, and I feel there is a point at which the government should charge in. As brutally unfair as it is to the people of Burns, the best option for law enforcement is probably still to stay away. The only other options they have carry a very high risk of worsening the situation. Again, I'm as outraged as anyone else here. But I also have an appreciation for what a group like this is capable of, and I have an appreciation for just how few of them it yakes to really cause some massive damage. It's not easy for me to be the girl urging patience with a group of violent right wing zealots, it really isn't. But I want to see as few innocent people as possible get hurt, and to me that is more important than my own angry desires.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:37
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Discendo Vox posted:https://twitter.com/KieranSuckling/status/691055606422056960 Is... Is this real life?  
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Jan 24, 2016 03:38
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Prester John posted:There would be thousands of civilian casualties in the resulting backlash from the extreme right wing. The number of right wing crazies sufficiently radicalized to turn violent is still small. If we took your approach those numbers would shoot through the roof. We would eventually kill them all of course, but parts of the country would look like Somalia by the time it was done. This is fantasy based on nothing but crazy online posts. Waco inspired two maybe three people to commit terrorism, which in turned inspired no other similar attacks because, most people aren't psychopath murderers with death wishes. The Bundy Ranch inspired two people to commit murder, while it was on going and even though the government didn't even move to do anything other than show up. The only reason this Oregon thing is happening now was because the government took a hands off approach with the Bundy's in the first place. Right wing militias are currently in no position to literally become ISIS, unless the government continues to allow them to fester and grow, in which case, then yes, they will eventually become a significant threat and will be able to do serious harm. Remember that less than a year ago right winger conspiracy nuts literally thought Obama was going to use the army to seize Texas. And they did nothing but post about it online. These people literally believe in FEMA death camps, and allegedly have locations and have seen convoys, and have done nothing but post about them online. They literally think they are implanted with chips and being poisoned and mind controlled by the government, and they have done nothing but post about it online. The only thing that would get them off their asses and start killing people was if they thought it was something they could get away with fairly easily. The government playing softball with them is an easy way of convincing them that perhaps they CAN stand up to the government. Them being allowed to take over government property and then run media circus and preach their message out there is a nice way to embolden the vast majority of them who are cowering behind their computers. The government is currently in the process of making these guys feel more confident about their own beliefs and is encouraging them to do more than just post conspiracies online by showing them that they are allowed to gather to break the law and make "shows of force" without much threat of repercussion. ToastyPotato fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 03:47
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Seriously though,Morrow posted:I'm from Oklahoma City and I say kill 'em all. these folks will do whatever they want to justify what they do, to the great harm of the rule of law and to the increased risk of public safety as the more emboldened they get. They will make themselves martyrs because they have already decided they need to be martyrs. They are setting up their own parallel courts and enforcement mechanisms to enforce their will. The time to deal with this was when it could have been stopped with a blockade, but now it is too late.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:52
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Turnquiet posted:Seriously though, Too late? Could you clarify? You seem to be implying that this is the start of a far right uprising. Which still seems very, very unlikely to me given that the rest of the nation, and the world isn't even paying attention to this much anymore. The Oregonian has daily updates but that's because the failing paper is excited to have a local story to report on for once. This reminds me of when the same thing happened when a tanker, the New Carissa, ran aground once and it took them a really long time to figure out what to do with it.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:27
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The stream's been posted For your convenience I have linked the best moment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZgy2ZyWaHc&t=2329s
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Jan 24, 2016 04:40
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ToastyPotato posted:This is fantasy based on nothing but crazy online posts. Waco inspired two maybe three people to commit terrorism, which in turned inspired no other similar attacks because, most people aren't psychopath murderers with death wishes. The Bundy Ranch inspired two people to commit murder, while it was on going and even though the government didn't even move to do anything other than show up. Waco inspired a terrorist act that killed over 150 people and wounded more than 650 others. There does not need to be huge numbers of insurgents to inflict large numbers of casualties. As far as the 2 deaths inspired by the Bundy Ranch showdown, I would remind you that showdown ended in complete victory for the militia, and it still inspired a shooting rampage. Extremists like these are processing reality in a fundamentally different way than the average person is. I base my analysis not off of "crazy online posts" but rather from being raised to be a violent extremist in this movement. I was raised in a cult that used the Acelebrated Christian Education system for its schooling. All the elders had basements full of guns. I didn't have a social security number until I was 14 because SSN's were just a way to train the public to accept the mark of the beast. Me and my peers were raised believing that in our adult years Armaggeddon would occur. We talked not of what we wanted to be when we grew up, but if we grew up. I was one of these crazies until a few years ago. Put yourself in the shoes of the extremists for a moment. In the past year they have watched Gay Marriage become law, they have watched a Transwoman be accepted by society. They have watched their precious racist flag torn down from places of honor. They feel like the whole world is going mad. To them, reality is as frightening and incomprehensible as their worldview is to you. They feel threatened, cornered, and desperate. They are lashing out. The worst thing that can be done is to give any legitimacy to the paranoid fears that are running rampant right now. I do believe that the right wing will eventually exhaust it's outrage and things will calm down on their own, mostly. There will be some level of violence, but that level can be kept low. However. If the Federal government resembles too clodely the villain of prophecy that the right wing has been warning about for decades, a great deal of people that otherwise might not make that jump from keyboard warrior to seditionist may very well make that jump. I feel that this is a reason why the FBI is handling things they way they currently are, and I must regretfully also state that I think they are probably making the right call.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:43
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As a Millennial I posted:The stream's been posted This is a pro-click. Those poor kids are just dumbfounded. Like "Mom what the gently caress did you get us into this time?". I can't wait for one of them to come out as gay and write a tell all book.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:47
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"Don't do what they want you to do" doesn't work when their narrative can accept any action as proof that the government is ruthless and tyrannical and/or weak and ineffectual.
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Jan 24, 2016 04:56
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Subterfrugal posted:"Don't do what they want you to do" doesn't work when their narrative can accept any action as proof that the government is ruthless and tyrannical and/or weak and ineffectual. Literally every action, from doing absolutely nothing to crushing them mercilessly and anything in between will feed their narrative because they are not rational, thats why they are terrorists in the first place.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:11
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Prester John posted:
I think this would hold more weight if they reacted the same way when Republican administrations are in power. The Bush years saw a shitload of sketchy government overreach, but towards people they hate.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:14
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Turtle Sandbox posted:Literally every action, from doing absolutely nothing to crushing them mercilessly and anything in between will feed their narrative because they are not rational, thats why they are terrorists in the first place. Some actions promote or increase the number of followers much more than others. The greatest of these is government violence, justified or not. Bundy needs press coverage of government responses to keep the occupation going- that's why he has been seeking it out and becoming frustrated when the condition of negotiation was effectively turning himself in, without cameras present.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:15
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Who What Now posted:People keep saying this, but how do we do that? When I was still at the Academy I remember sitting in on a FBI anti-terrorism briefing during a USCG internship. It was kind of impressive how much they knew about : Shiites and Sunni extremists, ALF and ELF, various right wing militia groups. Motives, narratives, organizational structure, ideology, important individuals all of that was stuff they studied and briefed other agencies on. Well somewhere along the line what I understand is that there was a legislative thing by some rear end hat republican (want to say on Bush's way out) that I can't remember the name of that prevented homeland security and federal law enforcement agencies from studying the right wing militias in the way that they study other terrorist groups. So some of it might be that the people who should know how to do that, haven't been able to keep up on it. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 05:17
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Talmonis posted:I think this would hold more weight if they reacted the same way when Republican administrations are in power. The Bush years saw a shitload of sketchy government overreach, but towards people they hate. You are missing the point. Bush channeled their rage and aimed it against Muslims/brown people. Bush was a good leader doing a tough job to these people, they were the 30% that approved of him no matter what. Clinton/Obama did not direct that rage against a foreign "other", so that rage was instead directed against them. Incidentally, the Bush family has been instrumental in quitely supporting the networks that breed extremists like these.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:21
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Prester John posted:She gave them justification to escalate and drew national attention back on them when it was starting to wane. And now 3 days later the militia has formed a military tribunal with a judge that is going to start insuring crazy pants orders that the militia will eventually try to enforce. They were going to do this anyway. If they hadn't got the attention they wanted they were going to continue to escalate until they did. Sorry, Prestor, but ignoring problems until they go away has literally never worked in all of human history and it wasn't going to work here. Edit: goddamnit, beaten so bad. Teach me not to refresh a tab. Edit2: Stop saying that "aggression would just be playing into their hands" like its something we should give a poo poo about. We can't let ourselves be held hostage because they say they want a firefight. If that's what they want, good, give it to them. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 05:29
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Who What Now posted:They were going to do this anyway. If they hadn't got the attention they wanted they were going to continue to escalate until they did. Sorry, Prestor, but ignoring problems until they go away has literally never worked in all of human history and it wasn't going to work here. The governor's actions refocused media attention on the militants, which sustains the occupation.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:33
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Discendo Vox posted:The governor's actions refocused media attention on the militants, which sustains the occupation. You can keep saying this, but you're still wrong about it. Stop pretending they were literally seconds away from saying something up until that point. If they don't get the attention they want then they'll keep escalating their actions anyway until they do. Ignoring problems doesn't. loving. Work.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:36
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Prester John posted:Waco inspired a terrorist act that killed over 150 people and wounded more than 650 others. There does not need to be huge numbers of insurgents to inflict large numbers of casualties. Waco inspired a singular act, that most right winged militia men distanced themselves from and never duplicated, because the vast majority of these militia men, despite all of their big talk, don't actually want to fight a war at home. If they did, if even 10 of them did, there would have been many attacks going beyond OKC. There haven't. Even when they were sure Obama was sending in the troops to take Texas, they didn't do poo poo. Consider that MRA bullshit, Carly Fiorina, and Confederate white supremacist BS have inspired the taking of more lives in the past 2 years than militia bullshit has in the last 15. The kind of people willing to flip their poo poo and bomb abortion clinics and shoot up black church's or Planned Parenthood's don't need another Waco to be inspired to go on a killing spree. That much has been demonstrated already. Trying to arrest some militia men isn't going to spark Civil War 2, and the only people likely to end up committing crimes as a result of it almost certainly would have done it any way, regardless of what happens in Oregon. Because they are loving sick.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:37
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Who What Now posted:You can keep saying this, but you're still wrong about it. Stop pretending they were literally seconds away from saying something up until that point. If they don't get the attention they want then they'll keep escalating their actions anyway until they do. Ignoring problems doesn't. loving. Work. Hey now, if I never go to the doctor I won't know whats wrong with me, its practically the same thing.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:38
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ToastyPotato posted:Waco inspired a singular act, that most right winged militia men distanced themselves from and never duplicated, because the vast majority of these militia men, despite all of their big talk, don't actually want to fight a war at home. If they did, if even 10 of them did, there would have been many attacks going beyond OKC. There haven't. Even when they were sure Obama was sending in the troops to take Texas, they didn't do poo poo. Consider that MRA bullshit, Carly Fiorina, and Confederate white supremacist BS have inspired the taking of more lives in the past 2 years than militia bullshit has in the last 15. The kind of people willing to flip their poo poo and bomb abortion clinics and shoot up black church's or Planned Parenthood's don't need another Waco to be inspired to go on a killing spree. That much has been demonstrated already. Trying to arrest some militia men isn't going to spark Civil War 2, and the only people likely to end up committing crimes as a result of it almost certainly would have done it any way, regardless of what happens in Oregon. Because they are loving sick. The OKC bombings were never duplicated because of a massive federal crackdown on militias as well as serious infiltration. All of that was scrapped because of right wing complaints. https://www.splcenter.org/news/2011/06/07/splc-urges-dhs-reassess-resources-after-key-analyst-reveals-unit-domestic-terror-was-scaled
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Jan 24, 2016 05:45
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Prester John posted:There OK bombings were never duplicated because of a massive federal crackdown on militias as well as serious infiltration. All of that was scrapped because of right wing complaints. https://www.splcenter.org/news/2011/06/07/splc-urges-dhs-reassess-resources-after-key-analyst-reveals-unit-domestic-terror-was-scaled So you agree that a federal crackdown on militias would basically completely defang them and keep American's safe then? We could start by immediately announcing arrest warrants for everyone involved with this and the Bundy ranch fiasco.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:48
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Prester John posted:The OKC bombings were never duplicated because of a massive federal crackdown on militias as well as serious infiltration. All of that was scrapped because of right wing complaints. https://www.splcenter.org/news/2011/06/07/splc-urges-dhs-reassess-resources-after-key-analyst-reveals-unit-domestic-terror-was-scaled Which means that we need to crack down on them again. Starting with these fucks. And if that emboldens them, who loving cares? No matter what they're going to spin a winning narrative, so we might as well make them do it from a prison cell or a pine box.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:51
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So what I'm getting is that this is a deeply disturbed subculture full of people who're inherently incompatible with a modern socially liberal society. They're not going anywhere and nothing anyone can do or say can change their minds, seems to me it'd be better to just rip the bandaid off and deal with the problem now instead of just letting it fester and hope it'll go away on it's own.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:51
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Prester John posted:You are missing the point. Bush channeled their rage and aimed it against Muslims/brown people. Bush was a good leader doing a tough job to these people, they were the 30% that approved of him no matter what. Bombing Brown people is an acceptable solution to right wing domestic terrorism? I know it's wrong but it got a good laugh out of me. You are setting too higher goals to even consider a useful solution. Zero blow back isn't a reasonable goal especially doing nothing is already generating blow back. Look there are no clean ways to "Win" against irrational people. No matter what you do they will see it as a win. If they had been blockaded day one like in any other country this would have ended weeks ago when the story was red necks take wildlife refuge. A blockade will still work now, but it's going to take a lot longer as they have more supplies and have spun up a narrative to hold on to no matter how insane it might be.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:53
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Prester John posted:The OKC bombings were never duplicated because of a massive federal crackdown on militias as well as serious infiltration. All of that was scrapped because of right wing complaints. https://www.splcenter.org/news/2011/06/07/splc-urges-dhs-reassess-resources-after-key-analyst-reveals-unit-domestic-terror-was-scaled To put it another way, you are saying that after OKC, the feds cracked down on militias, preventing them from carrying out any further attacks, and this crackdown, did not inspire any other attacks in of itself. In other words, the feds going after militias was incredibly successful and actually deescalated a severe, growing problem, without sparking a new civil war or wave of terrorism. So why is arresting these jerks a bad idea again?
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Jan 24, 2016 05:59
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ToastyPotato posted:To put it another way, you are saying that after OKC, the feds cracked down on militias, preventing them from carrying out any further attacks, and this crackdown, did not inspire any other attacks in of itself. In other words, the feds going after militias was incredibly successful and actually deescalated a severe, growing problem, without sparking a new civil war or wave of terrorism. It's also just "tone" arguments at this point, really. We can't do anything against these guys because it'll set a bad "tone" for future events. Please ignore the fact that this is already almost certainly going to lead to similar events led by similar groups looking for similar results. Can't set a bad tone for them!
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Jan 24, 2016 06:01
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ToastyPotato posted:To put it another way, you are saying that after OKC, the feds cracked down on militias, preventing them from carrying out any further attacks, and this crackdown, did not inspire any other attacks in of itself. In other words, the feds going after militias was incredibly successful and actually deescalated a severe, growing problem, without sparking a new civil war or wave of terrorism. Because this time it might lead to more attacks because this time its different.
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Jan 24, 2016 06:03
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Turtle Sandbox posted:Because this time it might lead to more attacks because this time its different. It's already going to lead to new attacks, and they've already threatened them and have agents in Burns threatening people who speak out against them. It's literally a camp to train radicals out in the woods away from anywhere like people were wringing their hands about in the first few GOP debates We're past the point where bloodshed is inevitable, and I'd be willing to bet that the Feds are waiting for it with bated breath because it's going to take somebody dying for them to do anything. Some local is going to get super lovely with one of these yahoos and they're going to pop off and then it's all over
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Jan 24, 2016 06:07
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Epic High Five posted:It's already going to lead to new attacks, and they've already threatened them and have agents in Burns threatening people who speak out against them. It's literally a camp to train radicals out in the woods away from anywhere like people were wringing their hands about in the first few GOP debates And that is 10x worse imo than just being proactive and ending this within the first 2 days. Waiting for these assholes to kill or hurt someone just so they are in the clear is lovely, and I would hope any victims of any crimes committed by these jackasses sue the poo poo out of the government for standing by and letting it happen.
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Jan 24, 2016 06:10
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If this subculture has grown so deeply disturbed and divorced from reality then the hands-off approach won't fly. It'll just give them more time in their little echo chambers to further radicalize themselves. Nothing will erase their irrational fears or convince more impressionable ones to open their minds so long as they are kept in these self-contained communities that keep on cycling paranoid delusions. Recieving no form of consequences from actions this criminal only makes them more bold and convinced that their leaders' jabbering is correct. Worse, it convinces more and more people disaffected by minor changes to reject reason and join their "cause" because now it seems just as safe as internet trolling. As has been said, there really is no clean or quick way to deal with people like this, but something must be done if only to discourage those who haven't completely bought into this. If we let these right wing militias fester, we really will have a homegrown ISIL.
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Jan 24, 2016 06:13
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Let's be totally honest. A democrat winning in 2016 will be just as likely to inspire acts of terrorism from right winged extremists as arresting Bundy and Co. would. I don't think anyone would seriously suggest we hand over the 2016 election to Cruz or Trump to keep them calm.
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Jan 24, 2016 06:26
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I'm less concerned with terrorism and more concerned with congress cutting the FBI budget for going after the right like they did to the IRS
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Jan 24, 2016 06:28
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I'm less concerned with terrorism and more concerned with congress cutting the FBI budget for going after the right like they did to the IRS That is a lot easier to do since hating the IRS is basically a meme. The right loves them some national security legislation and spending, so gutting the FBI would run counter to that, especially if it resulted in an attack that democrats can frame as preventable had the FBI had the budget.
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Jan 24, 2016 06:35
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ToastyPotato posted:That is a lot easier to do since hating the IRS is basically a meme. The right loves them some national security legislation and spending, so gutting the FBI would run counter to that, especially if it resulted in an attack that democrats can frame as preventable had the FBI had the budget. It's a good argument but funding has already been cut to the FBI for responding to right wing christian terrorism, so it's actually more or less a stone cold fact that it would happen. They'll still spend big, just not on the FBI, like what congress did with the CDC and gun violence research
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Jan 24, 2016 06:39
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Epic High Five posted:It's a good argument but funding has already been cut to the FBI for responding to right wing christian terrorism, so it's actually more or less a stone cold fact that it would happen. They'll still spend big, just not on the FBI, like what congress did with the CDC and gun violence research That certainly sucks, but I would need to see how much things were cut relative to any prior increases before hand. I could see what happened to them as a warning, but there is such a thing as them going to far, and if they cut too deep, they are going to gently caress up bad and end up getting a bunch of people hurt or killed, not that this has ever stopped them before. But at a time when GOP optics couldn't be that much worse, attempting something like that could be another nail in the coffin for the party.
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Jan 24, 2016 06:44
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ToastyPotato posted:That certainly sucks, but I would need to see how much things were cut relative to any prior increases before hand. I could see what happened to them as a warning, but there is such a thing as them going to far, and if they cut too deep, they are going to gently caress up bad and end up getting a bunch of people hurt or killed, not that this has ever stopped them before. But at a time when GOP optics couldn't be that much worse, attempting something like that could be another nail in the coffin for the party. They'll just say it was transgender abortionists and their base will eat it up and the media will say, "well all the evidence says that the killer was a right wing militia member and also that member says it and their browser history and all their affiliations and all their friends and also it's on camera, but this expert from Mormon Shill University says that can't possibly be true. I suppose we'll never know!"
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Jan 24, 2016 06:47
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Epic High Five posted:It's a good argument but funding has already been cut to the FBI for responding to right wing christian terrorism, so it's actually more or less a stone cold fact that it would happen. They'll still spend big, just not on the FBI, like what congress did with the CDC and gun violence research Democrats need to start openly tying them to these groups when they do poo poo like this.
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Jan 24, 2016 06:53
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ToastyPotato posted:That is a lot easier to do since hating the IRS is basically a meme. The right loves them some national security legislation and spending, so gutting the FBI would run counter to that, especially if it resulted in an attack that democrats can frame as preventable had the FBI had the budget. Like much-beloved Democratic talking point Benghazi.
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