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Unimpressed posted:On another note, does anyone have a short outline of how they get a TeCj off the ground? Focus on Conjurations heavily as your spellbook is only built around that. Skill into Spellcasting once you're feeling MP starved. Searing Ray will be your most MP efficient spell until Magic Dart + Battlesphere. But everything in your spellbook will come in handy in one situation or another; what you take or leave is a matter of preference. Remember that once Te levelled up enough they can evoke flight. You will move at 0.9 aut which is enough to get away from normal speed enemies. Otherwise they play like Deep Elves except less capable at Charms/Hexes/Translocations/Transmutations and a greater preference for Fire and Air. Sage Grimm fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 03:45
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Unimpressed posted:On the (eternal) subject of unavoidable deaths. Just turned a corner, ran into bloody Sigmund two squares away. Take a step away from him, get confused, try to step away from him, die... I have said a few things on TeCj In this thread. Would quote them but on my phone. Check through my posts though.
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Jan 23, 2016 03:53
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I'm really wanting to play a game with Kiku, and I kinda like the idea of branching into necromancy from another school or background. What's a cool combo for that? I sadly killed off a Tengu who managed to get the Sceptre of Torment on D3 before I could get anywhere.
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Jan 23, 2016 09:29
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You could always start gladiator for light armor and poke over zombies with a polearm. Or skald since it contains regeneration already, and use spectral weapon to poke over zombies with two polearms.
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Jan 23, 2016 09:51
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I have a new personal best for "most bullshit D1 encounter". Fire elementalist start, I encounter a goblin with a dagger of venom and loving Fire Dragon Armour. Trying to flee from that invincible murder machine lead to my demise.Dee Ehm posted:I'm really wanting to play a game with Kiku, and I kinda like the idea of branching into necromancy from another school or background. What's a cool combo for that? DE enchanter is good on its own and Kiku gives you a bunch of useful tools for things that won't hex that you can easily use with your DE apts, then you acquire a quick blade asap and the pain brand turns you into a murder machine. After that you can abandon Kiku for someone else if you want. e: If you're a coward who can't handle DE health, vampires are nearly as good in all the relevant apts and have some other upsides, but in my experience you'll really regret the weaker mana pool & spellcasting apt. Darox fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 14:25
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Darox posted:DE enchanter is good on its own and Kiku gives you a bunch of useful tools for things that won't hex that you can easily use with your DE apts, then you acquire a quick blade asap and the pain brand turns you into a murder machine. After that you can abandon Kiku for someone else if you want. Is abandoning Kiku actually wise? Badwiki says he *punishes you for using Necromancy spells* but isn't specific what that means. Is it mostly innocuous or am I basically banned from necromancy until the wrath passes? That is one bullshit D1 spawn by the way.
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Jan 23, 2016 16:06
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Dee Ehm posted:Is abandoning Kiku actually wise? Badwiki says he *punishes you for using Necromancy spells* but isn't specific what that means. Is it mostly innocuous or am I basically banned from necromancy until the wrath passes? One in twenty chance of a necromancy miscast effect whenever you cast a necromancy spell, for the duration of penance; this does not affect your odds of casting the spell successfully. Also, some occasional torment, hostile zombies/skeletons falling on your head, miasma, and a whole pile of more necromancy miscast effects. Doesn't sound all that bad, as wraths go, though I haven't played through it myself. Dee Ehm posted:That is one bullshit D1 spawn by the way. But think of how happy Darox would have been if they'd been able to win the fight!
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Jan 23, 2016 17:12
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Gadget god is a mighty god.code:More or less infinite recharges on your Wand of Heal Wounds is bonkers for a Deep Dwarf. I was never in danger except when some sort of tormentor showed up. Speaking of which, how the hell do Deep Dwarves handle torment? I considered going to extended, but scrapped the plan after every Curse Toe/Skull gave me a hard time. Even when I won handily, I had to burn way more charges on my wand than I earned back.
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Jan 23, 2016 18:43
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Dee Ehm posted:Is abandoning Kiku actually wise? Badwiki says he *punishes you for using Necromancy spells* but isn't specific what that means. Is it mostly innocuous or am I basically banned from necromancy until the wrath passes? What PF said, it's not that bad. Kiku -> Cheibriados is pretty fun, you get a great weapon and enough str that you don't mind using it against everything, and Control Undead spellpower to fight the wrath, and you aren't getting killed by chei in the early game. Just beware that at any time you can get torment/miasma/undead.
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Jan 23, 2016 19:32
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Big Mad Drongo posted:
Same way everyone else handles it, lich form, TSO, statue form with full rN, or just general full rN with using extreme good play. At least that's how I assume everyone handles it, but I've only ever full 15 runed characters who can cast lich form, and everyone other than that and full rN statue form types seem insane to me. I may not have much experience with Deep Dwarves, but I imagine they benefit most from lichform out of any species because torment is a bigger problem for them than it is for anyone else. Akett fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 20:55
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Big Mad Drongo posted:Speaking of which, how the hell do Deep Dwarves handle torment? I considered going to extended, but scrapped the plan after every Curse Toe/Skull gave me a hard time. Even when I won handily, I had to burn way more charges on my wand than I earned back. You can do extended as a Deep Dwarf solely off the back of TSO or Makhleb without much issue, honestly. Sure, Torment sucks, but you're likely to regen all the health back off of all the other things that can't even scratch you. That is, until you get to Tomb, but by then you probably should have been able to find a way to actually ignore Torment.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:32
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PleasingFungus posted:One in twenty chance of a necromancy miscast effect whenever you cast a necromancy spell, for the duration of penance; this does not affect your odds of casting the spell successfully. If you have blink it's pretty safe, as far as wrath goes. The most dangerous outcome is you get miasma dropped on you and your path blocked by zombies. If you can blink out of that and you don't spam necromancy too much (a reaper spawn can be nasty) you should be fine. The zombie spawns depend on your area, so you can burn off most of your penance in areas where they are weak. Kiku is one of the few gods that you can actually survive penance with a low-mid level character. A perfect Kiku game for me involves getting bolt of draining, acquiring a weapon to brand and the pain gift by the end of lair, then doing Orc while under penance and getting your new God up to speed. It's certainly better than someone like Okawaru, where you can expect a quick death at the hands of archers & javelineers.
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Jan 23, 2016 23:38
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Akett posted:Same way everyone else handles it, lich form, TSO, statue form with full rN, or just general full rN with using extreme good play. It's not as bad because damage shaving (which they have! the formula being 1d(1+1d(1+XL/3)) ) will kick in for Torment. And hellfire. And sounds like smite too.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:02
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PleasingFungus posted:One in twenty chance of a necromancy miscast effect whenever you cast a necromancy spell, for the duration of penance; this does not affect your odds of casting the spell successfully. See, I had assumed that I'd melt into a pile of Miasma if I so much as looked at a Necromancy spell, without clarification. That's much less harsh.
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Jan 24, 2016 01:32
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FR: New revenant tile
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Jan 24, 2016 01:35
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What I learned today: When you feel smart about using the Cloak of the Thief's +Fog to break LOS with a shapeshifter that's turned into a shining eye, make certain you don't re-establish LOS again before you get away completely. I got lucky and the malmutate was rough black scales rather than something bad, but even so. Gozag is awesome if you have enough food to avoid starving. Calling in shops is unreliable as all hell but can sometimes get you stellar equipment (like how one of them had a randart +2 helmet with rF+, rC+, and MR+) Bribe Branch is capable of bribing Orbs of Fire to fight for you, as I learned when 3 of them came into LOS and immediately turned into allies. And ancient liches, although those make more sense to be suspectible to bribes than inanimate spheres of burning death. It turns out Zot:5 is not very difficult when about half the enemies have decided to help you slaughter the other half and another quarter can't be bothered to put up a fight. Literally all I needed to do was sit back and tell the orbs of fire what to incinerate while laughing manically. Granted, I threw 9000 gold away on that but it was WORTH that moment of sheer power and being able to turn , and the bribe somehow convinced a pandemonium lord to not try and fight me on the way back up (although considering I still had one of those bribed orbs of fire following me, it wouldn't have been hard to begin with) Money is power.
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Jan 24, 2016 02:49
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Most wrath is pretty manageable I find, though Oka and Makhleb are up there. I usually ditch Oka on fighters around Tomb for Zin and it's created some chancy situations where you can't stairdance any more because there's a pack of summoned titans upstairs and a pack of greater mummies downstairs. But if you're XL20 or above it's generally ok. I don't have experience with all the gods wrath, could some of you guys maybe list what you feel is hardest -> easiest in order? I think I'd switch more if I had more deets on how survivable wraths are.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:31
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Just started playing this game a couple of hours ago, having lots of fun so far. My most successful run was a vampire assassin run where I got I think like 4 floors down and then ( on my first attempt at 'online' - not really certain the online aspect of it yet though ) met a ghost of another player. Feeling relatively strong for my floor especially compared to the NPCs at least - I decided to poke at it. Got demolished in a few hits by the ghost though, and to throw it in my face further, I don't think I got a hit in. :c What's the difference between the regular site and the ones listed as "online"? Is it just the fact that you can fight against previous adventurers failed ghosts? Awesome game though, I'll definitely be spending a ton more time on it. Took me quite a while to get into the groove of things, and I think I should've actually chosen a ranged character to learn instead of spamming a melee ghoul to learn, but I think I've got a better hang of things now.
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Jan 24, 2016 03:50
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If you can get a stab in on player ghost it's a big fat xp balloon, but if you can't then as an assassin you probably would do better to just avoid them. Your big problem solver, curare needles, won't work on them. Of course sometimes you run into that early spriggan monk ghost or whatever that's a pushover for anybody. Also note a ghost can't leave the level they started on so they won't follow you through a stairwell. If you want to play a range weapon user the general advice is that you still need a melee option for clearing through popcorn enemies. Save your ammo for tougher targets, but don't be afraid to use it. Magic blasters are usually pretty narrowly focused. Conjurer is really good. There's download versions you can run offline, but there's also online versions. Tiles and Ascii for either. resistentialism fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 04:07
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So it turns out Xom can banish you all the way to level 5 of the Abyss, which he was more than happy to do on Lair:2!
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Jan 24, 2016 04:20
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Stik3 posted:Just started playing this game a couple of hours ago, having lots of fun so far. Online lets you watch other players and lets other players watch you, which can be a great way to learn about the game. It also saves all your games and statistics on a personal page so you can see your high scores and, once you get there, win rate, streaks, etc. It's really great if you play the game a lot. Fighting other player's ghosts is just a nice "bonus" that means you can run into super nasty enemies that have unexpected abilities. Some general tips: most people find melee easier to handle to start with. Berserker is pretty much universally acknowledged as the strongest start in the game, so Minotaur or Gargoyle berserker is probably the easiest way to learn. If that's not your thing (I found casters easier at first and some other people do too), conjuror and fire elementalist are good starts if you want to blast things; ice elementalist and wizard are good starts if you want to fight in melee and occasionally blast things. Actual ranged weapon starts are more advanced because you won't have a reliable supply of ammunition until a good bit into the game, so you need to know which enemies warrant the use of your ranged weapon and which you can safely fight with your crappy melee abilities. Troll hunter, however, can be a really strong and straightforward start because your ranged attacks, while very limited, are strong even with minimal investment, you'll never find a better weapon than your claws and those don't require a huge investment to be effective against early game enemies either. If you make it to an altar, worship Okawaru and use heroism in every situation that appears even slightly dangerous. Also, run away from player ghosts in the early game. Sometimes you'll be able to kill them, but very often you won't. It's usually just not worth it. dpeg posted:This is the most solid description for Charms I've seen. Spells are much harder to get right than consumables, so I definitely see where Megane is coming from. I think this is a "fun is not a design goal" type decision that favors some esoteric design aesthetic over what players actually enjoy when they play the game. Pretty much every RPG has spells that you can cast to make yourself more powerful because doing so is fun. Having magic you can use to give yourself a passive advantage in battle through bigger numbers or extended resources is satisfying in a different way than consumables because expending tactical resources feels clever and expending strategic resources feels punishing. The effect is psychological, rather than logical, and can't be denied or explained away. If you want to try and say that buffs aren't fun, I would say the burden of proof is on you, and it's you against pretty much everyone else who makes and plays video games. Everyone can agree that buffs are flawed in Crawl, and removing them might makes sense from a certain perspective, but I think it's hard to argue that doing so won't make the game less fun to play for the vast majority of players. Most RPGs struggle with the implementation of buff spells, so it's certainly not an easy problem to solve, but actually attempting to find a solution, even if imperfect, is better than simply excising a significant and rewarding dimension of the gameplay.
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Jan 24, 2016 05:15
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Online is an easy way to keep playing the latest version, to share your morgue files and to have people spectate. Also, when the 0.18 tournament comes around, online is the only way to join in, and tournaments are great, even if or maybe especially if you're a new player. One hint to keep in mind is that on the latest version, the enemies are colour coded by estimated difficulty, so you can use that as a rough hint until you understand more about the game to determine their danger level yourself. Also, never rush and use ctrl+x a lot for situational awareness. Finally, playing MiBe is easy mode and a great way to get a first win. Enjoy one of the best games out there!
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Jan 24, 2016 05:22
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I think this is a "fun is not a design goal" type decision that favors some esoteric design aesthetic over what players actually enjoy when they play the game. I hate buff spells. They are not fun. Every RPG has buff spells, and they're usually awful (just like grinding and crafting and all the other poo poo Crawl has moved past). This isn't an esoteric design aesthetic, it's about removing a thing I think is not fun and hopefully replacing it with something that is more fun. I wish people would stop acting like everyone who disagrees with them is a funhating drone who demands razor-sharp HOM-related balance at the expense of good old-fashioned American values; the whole fricking point is that buff spells aren't fun to me. They might be fun to you -- sometimes people enjoy different things -- but I would enjoy Crawl more if they were gone. The reason I find them unfun is that they're bland. I love making a big powerful character too, but charm spells are irritating to use, the benefits they give are mostly uninspiring, and once you have them you might as well use them all the loving time which ruins any sort of impressiveness they might have had for me. I should be clear, I'm fine with buffs, what I dislike is buffs you can use freely with no cost (and MP is not a meaningful cost for something you can cast out of combat). Drinking one of your only two haste potions feels nice and dramatic, but when you can cast Haste any time you feel the slightest bit inclined to, it loses its special-ness. It's a chore you do before every non-trivial fight. Oh look, a monster, might as well Haste up  .In fact, you might not know this, but Haste used to increase your speed by a lot more. But it turns out that it was crazy overpowered, because Haste is so common. So it got nerfed repeatedly. Imagine if, instead of having dozens of shots (or an infinite supply!) of the current +33% Haste in the game, you instead had a far more limited supply of, I dunno, +200% Haste. Suddenly it's not something you slap on automatically before every fight, it's a wicked, I-am-become-Death superbuff that you save for the most dire of situations. Doesn't that sound more fun? megane fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 07:01
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People might buy into your screed more if you actually had good ideas. Moving the effects from charms to consumables isn't a good idea that is in any way more interesting than the current system. That's just more of what we already have. Charms could easily be improve by just making the spells more interesting. As an example, spectral weapon is one of the best charms spells. It drastically increases the damage of a hybrid character in combat and you want too use it all the time because of that. You can't though, because the spell has downsides. The spectral weapon shares its damage with you, so using it in many situations can result in great harm. You have too think carefully about using it against dangerous foes, particularly those with AOEs. The spell requires thought put into it, rather than most buffs you just throw on and forget. Not every charms spell needs or even should work like this, but adding more like it would be a good way to make the school more interesting while remaining useful. The idea that gutting the school and throwing its effects onto consumables would somehow improve the game is baffling. We already have consumables too use for buffs, so what does this bring to the table? I said it before but its this silly line of thought that led to flight being removed. Consumables and evocables serve as the substitute, but the actual mechanics of flight are the same so its still just as boring. Nothing was improved. No problem was solved.
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Jan 24, 2016 07:28
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megane posted:I hate buff spells. They are not fun. Every RPG has buff spells, and they're usually awful (just like grinding and crafting and all the other poo poo Crawl has moved past). This isn't an esoteric design aesthetic, it's about removing a thing I think is not fun and hopefully replacing it with something that is more fun. I wish people would stop acting like everyone who disagrees with them is a funhating drone who demands razor-sharp HOM-related balance at the expense of good old-fashioned American values; the whole fricking point is that buff spells aren't fun to me. They might be fun to you -- sometimes people enjoy different things -- but I would enjoy Crawl more if they were gone. I don't like the idea of mega-haste. It'd be utter overkill in the entirety of most games unless you misplay, which would make it basically a band-aid for mistakes. And I don't think I can stomach the idea of the game actually needing a buff potion like that ever. Haste also is a limited resource in most games. It's in (1) spellbook, available through a very rare wand, and a rare potion. I can understand some of the complaints with buff spells, but I think that there's a valid complaint to be made no matter how its handled. And I'm not convinced we've found a cure better than the disease. If buff spells aren't fun, what do you do? Remove them entirely? Turn them all into items / consumables? How do you distribute them? Why should I ever not go Trog anymore?
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Jan 24, 2016 07:37
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megane posted:Every RPG has buff spells, and they're usually awful I respect your right to your opinion, but I'd like to point out that Crawl follows an awful, outdated style of buff design that requires constant refreshing of buffs. Other RPGs handle buffs in ways that make them tactically or strategically interesting, through limiting them only to combat, making them function as sustained abilities with a constant downside, or implementing other systems that work very well in their specific environment (you're a monster with no soul if you don't like Song in Sil, and I say that as someone who doesn't particularly like Sil). Buffs as a subject of game design in general comprises such a wide range of design styles that to hate all of them seems wantonly arbitrary. Obviously, none of the systems I mentioned above would fit in perfectly with Crawl, and most of them exist in games that were designed from the ground up with the buff system in mind. It may not be possible to find an excellent way to handle buffs in Crawl, and it certainly won't be possible to implement one all at once. But I do think limiting the ability to temporarily improve your characters combat power to consumables would change the game in both a fundamental, and quite negative way. Using consumables is fun and enjoyable in a different way than expending tactical resources like MP and the game should have both options available to players. Clearly there are good and well designed buffs like spectral weapon and, to a lesser extent, song of slaying, and there are also boring buffs like Ozo's armor, that gives an extremely powerful and important tool to light armor characters, but operates in a very boring way. It goes without saying that well designed buffs are preferable to badly designed buffs and that the badly designed buffs have been in desperate need of reform for years. But removing buffs as abilities that characters can invest XP into in order to use tactical resources to make themselves stronger would leave a gaping hole in the game's mechanics.
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Jan 24, 2016 08:10
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Regeneration is a tedious low-level spell, improved by config file tweaks and just having enough power that it interupts you less often. The following are brainfarts, something I'm not going to put into. It may also be mildly stupid or pointless.Cigotuvi's Rampant Regeneration Casting Rapid Regeneration grants you +400 regen rate for five to ten turns, based on spellpower. After the regeneration period ends, the spell gives you one or two temporary malmutations (ala wretched stars). Shroud of Golubria useful but entirely unfun to use, and almost pointless to recast in combat. Hate it. I could see it implemented as a weak amulet or cloak. Cloaks could use a little more variety, and shrou Buff spells being tedious is the reason I almost never play Ice Elementalists. Ozocubu's armor and condensation shield are often a hassle and detriment to use unless you're barely using conjurations at all. While the mechanics of them are interesting, having them up is often a 'no-brainer', aside from the effort of a few keystrokes or the magic cost (which will be considerably mitigated by an amulet of mana regeneration). I'd love to see something change here, but I don't know what or in which direction. I haven't missed the flight spell at all. I'm surprised it's an issue. Berserk strikes me as one case of where a charms spell was removed in favor of consumables. I like where Song of Slaying fits in the scheme of things. Looking over the spell list, there are surprisingly few 'pure' charm spells. I kinda see the point of shunting them to other schools and removing charms, though I imagine it'd have an excessive effect on other roles than just skald esp. if done in one sweep. The removal of elemental cross-training penalties means I might be more willing to train up some odd schools for the occasional buff. Who knows, maybe now that I've actually started to think about this, I'll start having actual thoughts on the matter rather than something I type out at 2 AM while thinking of sleep.
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Jan 24, 2016 08:10
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The problem with buffs isn't that they're too boring (read: straightforward in effect) but that they're castable out of combat, such that you never really have to decide whether to cast one or not. They should be refactored so that each one is either an always-on extra inventory slot (like rmsl/dmsl are now) or something that you have to do in combat, such that you have to choose between it and moving or attacking or casting some other spell (like Cigotuvi's Embrace is now). So, for instance, the Regeneration spell could work like the demonspawn Powered By Death mutation where it draws on, and rapidly decays, nearby corpses. Phase Shift can only be cast if you've just applied your Evasion against an attack (but maybe has a shorter than normal cast time). Haste is coupled with Slow - you can only Haste yourself by stealing another creature's speed, and if that creature resists then you get a lesser effect or are completely out of luck. Ozo's Armor and Stoneskin could be mutually-exclusive always-ons, but maybe also compete for your "aura" slot with R/DMsl. Statue Form and Necromutation could have indefinite durations, but your failure chance to turn them on is also your failure chance to turn them off.
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Jan 24, 2016 08:24
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Internet Kraken posted:People might buy into your screed more if you actually had good ideas. Moving the effects from charms to consumables isn't a good idea that is in any way more interesting than the current system. That's just more of what we already have. Internet Kraken posted:(Spectral Weapon) requires thought put into it, rather than most buffs you just throw on and forget. I specifically said that some Charms are good and should stay. But Spectral Weapon is a partial exception in a sea of terrible, terrible spells. Ozo's Armour and Stoneskin and Phase Shift all do almost the exact same goddamn thing. And Shroud of Golubria and rMsl and dMsl are only like one step removed. You wanna introduce meaningful decision-making to, and remove tedium from, a dozen Charms spells? Be my guest. Why the hell would I be opposed to that? I'm all in favour of making Charms a good school instead of removing it. Feel free to name a single one and give me a legitimately good idea about it, I'm all ears. But I'm not holding my breath, considering your idea of a good spell includes Flight. As I said before, moving them to items is my personal suggestion, but it's by no means the only one and I'm glad to hear others. If they fix Charms some other way that'd be wonderful. But the important bit here is that these spells are kind of crappy, and need something done to them. Period. Heithinn Grasida posted:Buffs as a subject of game design in general comprises such a wide range of design styles that to hate all of them seems wantonly arbitrary. LordSloth posted:I haven't missed the flight spell at all. I'm surprised it's an issue. megane fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 08:25
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megane posted:Consumables are good design. Many buff spells are bad design -- here, look, I'll quote the only person you listen to: Consumables being good design doesn't mean adding more of them is a good idea, especially when they would just being doing the same thing. It would be redundant. Consumables only work as a mechanic when their limited supply is actually an issue. If you just flood the game with tons of them, that falls apart. I doubt you are saying the actual volume of consumables should be increased but I'm struggling to understand what charms spells you think would work differently as consumables than the ones we already have. Like, phase shift and shroud of golubria essentially increase your evasion. Same as a potion of agility. quote:So we should keep these "thoughtless, throw-on-and-forget" spells for... what, just because we can? Because they are an integral part of an entire playstyle and axing that playstyle just because you don't like it isn't kind to the players that do. If you have an idea of how to improve that playstyle, I'd be open too it. Your idea is just killing it off and making more consumables though. That's not a good idea. quote:I specifically said that some Charms are good and should stay. But Spectral Weapon is a partial exception in a sea of terrible, terrible spells. Ozo's Armour and Stoneskin and Shroud of Golubria and Phase Shift all do almost the exact same goddamn thing. You wanna introduce meaningful decision-making to, and remove tedium from, a dozen Charms spells? Be my guest. Why the hell would I be opposed to that? I'm all in favour of making Charms a good school instead of removing it. Feel free to name a single one and give me a legitimately good idea about it, I'm all ears. But I'm not holding my breath, considering your idea of a good spell includes Flight. I'm not the one trying too pitch an idea about how to fix the charms school. You were. Its not up too me to come up with a good redesign for the charms school since I'm not the one demanding it. Too me, the game has a bunch of other things that could be improved on that I do have ideas about, but that's not what is being discussed right now. If I was pitching those ideas and you had problems with them, I wouldn't be demanding you come up with another solution. Also I have never once said flight was a good spell from a design standpoint. It was a "good" spell in the sense that it let me circumvent an annoying part of the game. Removing it didn't actually improve anything since now I just have to deal with that annoying mechanic occasionally. quote:As I said before, moving them to items is one suggestion I'm making. But the important bit here is that buff spells are not a good design, and need something done to them. Period. And I'm saying your suggestion is flawed. Come up with a better one if this is so important. quote:It only seems like it's an issue because IK posts about it every two pages. I bring it up because its a good example of a "fix" that didn't actually accomplish anything. Flight itself is a flawed mechanic. Rather than change the way flight worked, the flight spell was removed. That didn't solve any of the problems with flight. Flight is just now more tedious too use and is largely ignored. Its rarely an issue since flight is never required outside of extended. If you actually play extended a lot, like me, and keep getting those vaults designed around permanent flight the absence of the spell is grating. I wouldn't give a drat about flight being gone if I never needed too use it but sometimes I do, and potions of flight last like 15 turns so I need to drink a ton of them to get through some Cocytus layouts. Its annoying.
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Jan 24, 2016 08:42
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Internet Kraken posted:Your idea is just killing it off and making more consumables though. That's not a good idea. Keep the good Charm spells as spells. That'd be... Spectral Weapon, Battlesphere, DDoor, and maybe Ring of Flames, I guess? Brand spells maybe, they're sort of weird and I forget they even exist most of the time. Move the effects that are bad as spells, but good in a general sense, to consumables or equipment. Looking through the only ones that catch my eye are rMsl (I'd make this a normal amulet ego, instead of just one unrand) and maybe Shroud (a cloak or something I guess). The other okay ones -- haste, regen, etc. -- are already consumables or equipment and work much better in that form. They just need to stop being spells. What's left are dull-rear end effects like Phase Shift and Ozo's. I'm fine with just removing those, but rebuilding them to be interesting spells or items would be great, too. The problem is that by this point the Charms school has like three spells in it, so either reallocate those to other schools (simple and easy) or come up with a ton of new, better Charms (difficult and time-consuming). So actually looking over that I'm moving literally zero spells to consumables.  e: Also, you keep asking how this improves the game. It does so by removing bad things. It's not as glorious or popular as adding good things, but it's just as important. If a playstyle exists only because some mechanics are broken, then it kind of has to die when you fix them. And if it prompts people to make new, better buff spells then it's a win all around. megane fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 09:05
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Okay, those proposed changes accomplish basically nothing while severely crippling hybrids. Like you say your fine with just removing ozocubu's armour but that's one of the strongest spells for hybrid characters. You can't just get rid of that with no compensation. Also spreading out those spells across a ton of schools makes it harder for hybrids, a playstyle that is more focused on carefully rationing exp than others, more difficult too cast. Really I'm not sure why you draw issue with a "boring" spell like ozocobu's armour in the first place though. Yeah it just gives you flat AC, but you can only get that AC bonus below a certain armour threshold. The AC bonus is also directly related too your ice magic skill. So while the spell itself doesn't do anything flashy in practice, the mechanics behind it lead you to develop your character in certain ways. Your kind of looking at all this stuff in a vacuum rather than thinking about the actual impact it can have on the decisions you make for a character. And yes they are tedious too constantly reapply but you could solve that easily just by making them function like repel missiles. I'm honestly not sure why this issue still exists. megane posted:e: Also, you keep asking how this improves the game. It does so by removing bad things. It's not as glorious or popular as adding good things, but it's just as important. I'm of the opinion that flawed systems that a lot of players enjoy should be improved rather than removed.
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Jan 24, 2016 09:25
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 Nice acquirement from a D8 scroll with my Gargoyle Berserker 
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Jan 24, 2016 09:43
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Ewar Woowar posted:
Speaking of ridiculous:  Always eat the purple and never not worship Xom
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Jan 24, 2016 09:51
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megane posted:Words I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think "remove it" is always the best solution to bad things, especially things that are controversially, rather than incontrovertibly, bad. Crawl's development does have that sort of culture, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. But this case is much more extreme than singularity (  ) or flight or whatever. I would rather have bad buffs than no buffs because I think they fill an important design space and because I like using them. I'm sure I'm very far from the only person who feels that way. Aside from my own preferences, ozo's armor et al., even if they are unarguably boring in their execution, are very interesting in their function. They greatly diversify the types of characters that can regularly and safely engage in melee combat. Without them, there would be a much sharper divide between casters and melee, and that would be to the game's detriment. One of the great strengths of Crawl, in my opinion, is that nearly any combination of abilities can very successful if you play the game well. That wouldn't be impossible without those defensive buffs, they certainly aren't the cornerstone of the success of hybrid builds, but they do make a very significant difference. Without them it would be a lot harder and riskier to play generalist characters as opposed to specialists. The fact that a character who's casting bolt of cold and freezing cloud has much easier access to ozo's armor and deflect missiles makes the game better, even if the way that ozo's armor and deflect missiles work as spells in themselves isn't ideal.
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Jan 24, 2016 10:04
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For Charms, why not borrow an idea from Path of Exile, where casting a buff leaves it always on at the cost of it reserving a chunk of your MP until you turn it off? At least then it wouldn't be necessary to keep recasting it all the time. It would be possible for players to game this setup by activating and de-activating their charms, but this could be prevented by giving charms a warm-up time. Then they'd have to be left on if they would be of any use.
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Jan 24, 2016 12:14
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Some general tips: most people find melee easier to handle to start with. Berserker is pretty much universally acknowledged as the strongest start in the game, so Minotaur or Gargoyle berserker is probably the easiest way to learn.  Ended up trying Gargoyle like you suggested, but forgot that you said Berserker has a stronger start compared to the fighter. Cursed teleporting ring griefed me a little, throwing me into a bad pack of enemies, which I made the rookie mistake of fighting too long. The priest kept smiting me or whatever, which was what was really chunking my health. Ended up using teleport scroll and a blink to get away narrowly, just to be teleported back in. Hasted away, but I made a horrible mistake of trying to rest behind a wall which I guess was still in proximity for their aggro/chasing AI. In hindsight I realize that I would've been much better to just haste over to the nearest set of upper-going stairs. I definitely did make the wrong assumption that ranged classes would be easier, at least from my trials. E: Oh yeah, 3 of 5 on my God. Feels like one of the weaker ones, but having shroom-shields did help in some cases. Also realized after that sunlight does indeed have a use. Maybe I should stray from that one for now if given the option.
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Jan 24, 2016 12:40
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Trog and Okawaru are the most straightforward gods for melee characters. Trog won't let you cast magic, but lets you go berserk, which is extremely strong early on, gives you lots of weapons, meaning you'll almost certainly find the best weapon of your chosen type eventually, and gives you a powerful regeneration and magic resistance buff as well as a strong summon. Okawaru lets you boost all your combat skills at a very low piety cost, which is good for everyone, but is excellent for certain weapons or attack styles that require high skill investment to be effective since you can save loads of experience by not training all the way to the point of diminishing returns, but rather just using heroism when you need more damage. It also gives you the ability to attack super fast at a high piety cost, which is great, especially since it doesn't have the downside of berserk. It will also give you weapons and armor, but most of its gifts will be ridiculous and useless crap. You still can probably count on a top-tier weapon, just not as quickly or reliably as with Trog, and the weapons you get will be slightly weaker. Also, very importantly, Okawaru doesn't block magic use, so late game characters can pick up some powerful, low level buffs and utility spells. Trog is typically considered the strongest god overall because it's strongest early. The only reason berserker is so good is because it starts with Trog and enough piety to berserk. Okawaru is probably better in the late game once you have your ideal weapon, you have XP to spare for learning magic and berserk isn't so useful, but the late game is much, much easier than the early game. But that doesn't mean you have to use those two! Experimentation is also a good way to learn the game, and you might end up feeling more comfortable with Makhleb or Yredelmnul or even Fedhas on your melee guy. Or with a caster of Vehumet or Kiku.
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Jan 24, 2016 13:19
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Do a melee guy of Qazlal. You'll die, but it'll be one hell of an exciting ride.
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Jan 24, 2016 14:16
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 19:19 |
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As AD says, the key to having fun at crawl is playing to do awesome things, and winning when it's convenient, rather than treating games where you die even though you did awesome things as "losses". It's a toy box, not a sperglord competitive racing moba job where someone will fire you if you don't get a top 10 score.
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Jan 24, 2016 14:29
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