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Tonight's Raw Story write up is pretty amazing. Apparently the militants are growing cold to the reporters, either because they've realized they're a laughingstock, or because they don't want to give away any strategic information now that a showdown is coming. The end of the piece, where the guy's escort is immediately overruled by a Bundy, makes me wonder what kind of hierarchy, if any, they actually have in place - if the Feds did roll in, would the militants cooperate at all, or would everybody try to Rambo their way to martyrdom? Also: a barrel of flaming dildos.
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Jan 24, 2016 08:20
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| # ? May 26, 2024 02:22 |
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^ gently caress, the very first picture "Yeehaw, look at mah tin star I got of the ebay!" and from the same rear end in a top hat “A group of men who understand that the problem is tyranny. It’s not a bunch of armed fundamentalist radicals running around, yelling, ‘F*ck Bush.’ " Wrong decade and slogan, dipshit. "David, who drove from Ohio, said he defended the Bundys’ interpretation of the Constitution, but his goal was to expose the U.S. government cover-up of radiation poisoning from the Fukushima nuclear meltdown."  "Cooper, after denouncing the online news site, focused on his notoriety, “You know who I am. You know I’m Blaine Cooper,” he said multiple times."  "The crowd melted away as did respect for freedom of the press. Rino fumbled with the now-crumpled note I handed him earlier, thrusting it toward my face, “I have your name. I know your number.” He declared, “I am your full-time escort. You are not to ask anyone any questions. You are being recorded.”"   ToastyPotato posted:To put it another way, you are saying that after OKC, the feds cracked down on militias, preventing them from carrying out any further attacks, and this crackdown, did not inspire any other attacks in of itself. In other words, the feds going after militias was incredibly successful and actually deescalated a severe, growing problem, without sparking a new civil war or wave of terrorism. I would say because when the US cracked down before it wasn't when they were in the media focus actively trying to stir poo poo up ala some standoff. SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 08:38
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quote:Nearly a dozen militants were out back chatting, gathered around a small wood fire. A few feet away others dug through a box of mail, throwing items, mainly sex toys, into an oil drum fire. One held up a large white cardboard cutout of a cock and balls, saying of the flag and eagle drawing on it, “At least it's patriotic,” before feeding it to the flames. Another militiaman walked by with a black butt plug adorned with googly eyes, saying, “I didn't even know what this was before someone told me,” as he sacrificed it. We were handed a fake plastic turd as a memento.
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Jan 24, 2016 09:08
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The folks at Ship A Dick must be so thrilled by this whole situation.
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Jan 24, 2016 09:34
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Jet Jaguar posted:The folks at Ship A Dick must be so thrilled by this whole situation. They do offer this after all http://shipadick.com/products/yee-haadist-special/ with multiple mass shippings quote:To clarify, we are getting a huge box of dicks, glitter and all of the notecards from you and mailing them to: SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 09:47 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 09:45
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Maybe the FBI is just busy laughing their asses off at the hate mail.
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Jan 24, 2016 09:45
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ToastyPotato posted:To put it another way, you are saying that after OKC, the feds cracked down on militias, preventing them from carrying out any further attacks, and this crackdown, did not inspire any other attacks in of itself. In other words, the feds going after militias was incredibly successful and actually deescalated a severe, growing problem, without sparking a new civil war or wave of terrorism. The situation in the 90's was quite a bit different from present. To start with, the total pool of potentially radicalized right wingers was far smaller in the 90's. It is larger today because of a combination of social media (the internet did not meaningfully exist when OKC occurred), progress of social causes that are gibbering madness to members of this movement (LGBT rights in particular), the open engagement of religious fanatics by politicians ala Kim Davis, megachurch's incorporating conspiracy theories into their sermons about the "end times" we are living through, and the taking of the Confederate flag from public monuments, just for starters. The President is also black, and that is a big contributing factor as well here. The breakdown of the right wing has some pretty far reaching effects. On the extremist end of the spectrum we have this open act of sedition. On the "calm" end of the scale we have Trump supporters. Both phenomena are a result of a half century of the right wing manipulating racists/Christian zealots (among others) into being a loyal voting bloc. In the 90's as a whole things were just generally far less progressed in the radicalization of the right. Seven years of top of their lungs fear mongering about the Muslim/Communist Kenyan usurper plotting to take their guns has driven a great deal of people a long way towards a dangerous cliff. While I agree a new federal crackdown is needed and would be effective, that crackdown can't start while we have an active incident of sedition ongoing. On the other hand, it might be best to just take our medecine and get this over with as soon as possible. There is an event looming on the horizon that could send a fair number of people over the edge. The faction that Cruz and Trump represent believes it is the true majority and they are certain their movement will have a landslide election that sweeps them into power in the 2016 elections. When they figure out that isn't going to happen, they are not going to know what to do with themselves. Their will be calls for armed resistance from some in that movement, and how much reach those calls have will be signifigantly impacted by however this situation pans out. I don't like the fact that the FBI is sitting on their hands, but I understand it. Sometimes the best thing to do when you have no good moves is to bide your time and wait. The FBI has no good moves here, at all. The unstable nature of the people leading this sedition means that it is still possible for it to collapse under its own insanity, but that is a chance that I think is shrinking every day this goes on. So while I concede that it might be better to take an aggressive approach at this point, I still think that biding time while the militia discredit themselves in the public mind is very probably the best course for now. Any attempt to forcefully remove these seditionists will get a shitload of people killed at this point. (Some of the children are likely to be among the casualtues, can you imagine the propaganda coup that would be for the GOP primary circus?) I don't think we are at the point where that risk can yet be justified. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 10:49
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John, the groups involved don't need to be discredited to the public; They're laughingstock s in the eyes of most people and anyone who took them seriously are using this as a way to reinforce and legitimize their ideas.
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Jan 24, 2016 11:50
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Blister posted:John, the groups involved don't need to be discredited to the public; They're laughingstock s in the eyes of most people and anyone who took them seriously are using this as a way to reinforce and legitimize their ideas. And as they are so fond of reminding us in ever increasing volume and fervor, they are fine with shooting at us reprobates.
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Jan 24, 2016 11:57
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Prester John posted:The situation in the 90's...... I'm just a lurker in this thread but I feel like I want to buy you breakfast and listen to more of this. I live in Nebraska for God's sake and most of my co-workers are fairly right-wing and I never hear anything like this.
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Jan 24, 2016 13:09
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:I want to buy you breakfast and listen to more of this.
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Jan 24, 2016 13:42
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Prester John posted:You are missing the point. Bush channeled their rage and aimed it against Muslims/brown people. Bush was a good leader doing a tough job to these people, they were the 30% that approved of him no matter what. Hi Prester John, glad to see you're here.  I do have to disagree with you on two counts, though. First, Bush intentionally tried to deflect anger away from Muslims after 9/11, as hard as it may be to believe in retrospect. Second, I don't think the Burns militants are of the Christian millenarian background you are familiar with. Although the Venn diagram between constitution fetishists and Christian millenarian/survivalist types often overlap, in this case it's strictly the former; otherwise you'd have literal Bible study groups and the like happening at the wildlife refuge versus the constitution ones we've been seeing.
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Jan 24, 2016 13:53
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I would like to hire two planes to fly over the refuge. The first would have a banner saying "Fight for the 1st Amendment and the Constitution" The second would say "Bundy supporters choke on horse cock" And have them fly over again and again every day with the second plane having a new phrase each day. Just to see if they actually are that incredibly stupid as to fire on a civilian plane.
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Jan 24, 2016 14:02
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:Hi Prester John, glad to see you're here. During George W Bush's Presidency the radicalization was not as progressed, so he still had to use dogwhistles. To these extremists, every terrorist was a muslim. He did not mispeak when he used the word "crusade" to describe America'South conflict with terrorists. He did so deliberately and only backed down because of the way the international community balked. Aso regards Ammon Bundy's religious motivations check out this article. (Phoneposting so no quotes sadly.) http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/ammon-bundy-mission-from-god_us_568c6b8fe4b0cad15e62836f Ammon has been claiming divine inspiration since the start of this. Also, blowing the Shohar is a powerful symbol to millenarian Christians who think the end times will commence with a "blast of horns". He and his followers are explicitly inciting millenarian christians to join them. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 14:31
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SocketWrench posted:"David, who drove from Ohio, said he defended the Bundys’ interpretation of the Constitution, but his goal was to expose the U.S. government cover-up of radiation poisoning from the Fukushima nuclear meltdown." That's the Defend Your Base guy, btw.
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Jan 24, 2016 15:37
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Boner Zone posted:There's also been a narrative, one you'll see repeatedly in this thread even, that OWS was so unharrassed by authorities that it naturally petered out for lack of purpose after a few months. This narrative totally ignores that the FBI and DHS coordinated with local law enforcement and loving banks all over the country to help crack down on ows. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy Investigating a national-scale anarchist organization for the possibility that terrorists might arise from it (which, in fact, did happen)? Those fascists! Why, I bet national law enforcement hasn't engaged in information coordination with local law enforcement agencies and likely targets of potential terrorism since the days of the Gestapo!!! This stupid persecution complex is the most obnoxious thing about the modern political left, bar none. Evil Fluffy posted:There could be exactly 15 guys and no women or children present and Jarmak's description would still be hand-waving bullshit because he's conveniently ignoring that these people are harassing locals (including the one guy whose tired got slashed) they don't like while the militia's defenders (including here) give bullshit defenses of said harassment because well gosh we can't ID the perps so what can we do. Jesus loving Christ. The ability to identify who committed a crime? Totally loving irrelevant, just hose down the protesters with bullets and charge all the survivors with all of the crimes, I'm sure a judge will see no problem with that UV_Catastrophe posted:I cannot believe the FBI is negotiating with Bundy. Because they're not ready to charge him, and won't be until a) he's done committing crimes that they can charge him with, and b) they've gone through every inch of that refuge looking for specific evidence to tie him specifically to specific crimes. Arresting protesters on the spot is a good way to have them back out on the streets within three days, as typically happens with lefty protests. If the FBI actually wants to put him in jail for a long period of time, as opposed to beating him up and then releasing him (and unlike local LEOs, the FBI doesn't do beatings), or charging him with stuff worth a year or two in jail maximum (the max sentence for federal trespassing is, like, six months or something, and he can't be charged for stuff the other militants did unless it can be proved he personally did it too) and hoping the judge doesn't just throw the entire case out again like in the Hutaree prosecution, then they need to let the militants dig themselves really really deep, rather than just arrest everyone immediately and just assume the courts will happily play along. Your Dunkle Sans posted:Popping back in to say "...Huh!?!?" You know what really legitimizes militants? A judge flat-out dismissing all charges against them, throwing out the entire prosecution, and insinuating that the government concocted a bullshit case out of hearsay and leaps of faith in order to oppress a group who were just engaging in protected political speech. And that's exactly what happened the last time the FBI tried for a big militia prosecution! It's far better to let then run free for a while and let them run up their own list of crimes than to crack down and risk the judge being an rear end in a top hat again. Intel&Sebastian posted:I don't know much about the OWS deaths but if what I'm reading here is true than anyone attributing them to the movement needs to also include the gadsen/las vegas shooters as a part of Bundy's "movement". And that's even if you assume the very convenient narrative about them being asked to leave is true What would a crackdown against the Bundy standoff have done to stop them? At most, it would have delayed it a bit, maybe a year or two tops - nothing that happened at the Bundy Ranch would have actually earned a long prison sentence in the real world (as opposed to the fantasy world most of this thread lives in, where judges rubber-stamp the meanest charges you could possibly come up with), and I don't think terrorists who kill themselves after their attack are particularly scared of consequences in the first place! If they had been immediately arrested and charged the day after the standoff, they'd be out of jail by now and free to do what they did. The Bundy standoff didn't "inspire" those two to shoot cops, it attracted those two who were already planning to shoot cops. The only difference it made is that, thanks to Bundy, they went out there and revealed their anti-government beliefs to the whole nation, rather than keeping them under wraps until the day of their attacks. That, by the way, should be an important hint toward another reason that the occupation is not being responded to with particular urgency: because it draws people with anti-government beliefs out of the woodwork! People who might have quietly nursed their desire to kill cops, silently amassing ammo and forming plans, are now coming out and telling national news reporters about their desire to kill cops. As for the people who aren't coming out, I'm not sure how a peaceful not-standoff with no injuries or even a real clash does more to motivate them to violence than an armed standoff and siege. Showing them that they can come out and protest without being shot at won't completely quash violent tendencies, but it will weaken the standoff mentality and the persecution complex.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:03
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Main Paineframe posted:Investigating a national-scale anarchist organization for the possibility that terrorists might arise from it (which, in fact, did happen)? Those fascists! Why, I bet national law enforcement hasn't engaged in information coordination with local law enforcement agencies and likely targets of potential terrorism since the days of the Gestapo!!! i disagree.
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Jan 24, 2016 16:17
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ToastyPotato posted:To put it another way, you are saying that after OKC, the feds cracked down on militias, preventing them from carrying out any further attacks, and this crackdown, did not inspire any other attacks in of itself. In other words, the feds going after militias was incredibly successful and actually deescalated a severe, growing problem, without sparking a new civil war or wave of terrorism. If someone is mean to the fascists, that would be the worst thing ever! as opposed to electing a fascist
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Jan 24, 2016 17:04
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A note that Mormons are Millennial Christians. It's standard doctrine. Thus, yes, kooks, splinter groups, and general fringey types latch on to all of the unpleasantness that can come from that (except, possibly, the whole rapture thing, or at least rapture before all the bad poo poo goes down, but this would hardly be the first time stuff that's not actual doctrine gets adapted by nuts. I've seen fringey Mormons talk about the antichrist when that's not even a thing. Multiple fake christs, yes, one big satanic antichrist, no.) Plus, I'm pretty sure that I've seen articles describing prayer groups along with Constitution study groups. I know I've seen several photos of group prayers being conducted. Obviously not all, maybe not even most (I privately hope not) of the militants are Mormon, but the Bundys and apparently Finicum (aka, tarp man) are. Also, hey, remember that thing about how gosh we can't possibly know if the militants are involved in the harassing/stalking/tire slashing/death threats, maybe it's just some other group who can ever know? Yeah. http://twitter.com/Patztense/status/691298756067729409 There's also this: http://twitter.com/Karimala1/status/691280002394918912
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Jan 24, 2016 18:17
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*militia arrests sheriff and besieges FBI HQ* Well it's not like they're violent or anything, we just gotta wait 'em out.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:27
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kartikeya posted:
Oh good I was worried there would be nothing on TV today 
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Jan 24, 2016 18:32
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The books the Nazis burned were about queer sexuality among other things.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:38
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Abner Cadaver II posted:*militia arrests sheriff and besieges FBI HQ* We wouldn't want to cause another Waco, we have to be careful.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:46
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I wonder how much this wait and watch tactic by the cops is a balance of; (A) Waiting for an good time to deal with irrational people with guns. (B) Using the situation as a honeypot to get the maximum number of supporters on maximum charges.
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Jan 24, 2016 19:15
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Beowulfs_Ghost posted:I wonder how much this wait and watch tactic by the cops is a balance of; Neither. It's entirely: (C) Authorities are more concerned about public perception than public safety.
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Jan 24, 2016 19:31
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How I imagine the FBI right now.
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Jan 24, 2016 19:48
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Prester John posted:Also, blowing the Shohar is a powerful symbol to millenarian Christians who think the end times will commence with a "blast of horns". He and his followers are explicitly inciting millenarian christians to join them. Mystery solved!
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Jan 24, 2016 20:14
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I didn't ask for more desperate rationalization of why you think OWS is an anarchist murderfest and why these guys are just so obviously deserving of different treatment. I just pointed out that if you're gonna hang deaths on OWS in such a fashion then you can't talk about Bundy as an innocent dummy, his movement has previous murders on it in your world, start acting like it if you want anyone to read the next screed.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:15
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And Hammond almost burned some firefighters to death by committing arson during a wildfire. I hope Brian Dennehy is still taking work because only he could do the role justice.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:53
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kartikeya posted:There's also this: So, uh, are they going to try to hang the sheriff then or what?
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Jan 24, 2016 20:56
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Krysmphoenix posted:It's a bit complicated, shutting off the power there would affect residents. And literally cutting a power cable is not as simple as it sounds. This is a non issue. Power goes out all the time in rural areas, especially ones that get snow. Rent generators from the local utility company and put them at all the residences.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:13
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Horking Delight posted:So, uh, are they going to try to hang the sheriff then or what? The sheriff and several municipal buildings are under FBI protection to prevent spillover, i believe
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Jan 24, 2016 21:14
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kartikeya posted:
and so it begins.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:19
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Intel&Sebastian posted:read the next screed. Why would you do that to yourself?
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Jan 24, 2016 21:57
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I didn't ask for more desperate rationalization of why you think OWS is an anarchist murderfest and why these guys are just so obviously deserving of different treatment. I just pointed out that if you're gonna hang deaths on OWS in such a fashion then you can't talk about Bundy as an innocent dummy, his movement has previous murders on it in your world, start acting like it if you want anyone to read the next screed. Different treatment? My point is that they're getting the same treatment - you're the one arguing that they shouldn't just be left alone the way Occupy was. So far, the FBI has treated these occupiers exactly the way they treated Occupy - outwardly appearing to do nothing, while secretly taking a crucial role in information gathering and management, coordinating different agencies in their response, stealthily infiltrating the movement and identifying dangerous elements that they can safely redirect into a later sting operation, and working on response plans to make sure that they can turn the tides and contain the problem immediately if things turn violent. And if you don't want to read my "screeds", no one's forcing you to do so! You make it sound like I'm torturing you by slamming your face against the screen and physically forcing you to read facts that are incompatible with your worldview. Horking Delight posted:So, uh, are they going to try to hang the sheriff then or what? As you can no doubt guess from the fact that it's a tweet of a Facebook post of a YouTube video that happened some time ago, of course not. They're just going to get close enough to point a camera at him, babble nonsense at him for a while, smugly declare that his authority is now void and they won't be listening to him anymore, then walk away and immediately share the video as widely as possible on social media with provocative clickbait headlines.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:58
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Main Paineframe posted:national-scale anarchist organization Is this guy for real
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Jan 24, 2016 22:17
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As a Millennial I posted:Tonight's Raw Story write up is pretty amazing. Apparently the militants are growing cold to the reporters, either because they've realized they're a laughingstock, or because they don't want to give away any strategic information now that a showdown is coming. The end of the piece, where the guy's escort is immediately overruled by a Bundy, makes me wonder what kind of hierarchy, if any, they actually have in place - if the Feds did roll in, would the militants cooperate at all, or would everybody try to Rambo their way to martyrdom? For fucks sake, is this poo poo still going on? I would've thought they'd given up and gone home by now.
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Jan 24, 2016 22:23
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theflyingorc posted:The sheriff and several municipal buildings are under FBI protection to prevent spillover, i believe Careful...Don't want these gentle loners to feel threatened, or like they've done a no-no...  Better just let them have the sheriff, or we could have another Waco, embolden all the hidden radicals under the bed, etc.
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Jan 24, 2016 22:31
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Main Paineframe posted:Investigating a national-scale anarchist organization for the possibility that terrorists might arise from it (which, in fact, did happen)? Those fascists! Why, I bet national law enforcement hasn't engaged in information coordination with local law enforcement agencies and likely targets of potential terrorism since the days of the Gestapo!!!  Main Paineframe posted:That, by the way, should be an important hint toward another reason that the occupation is not being responded to with particular urgency: because it draws people with anti-government beliefs out of the woodwork! People who might have quietly nursed their desire to kill cops, silently amassing ammo and forming plans, are now coming out and telling national news reporters about their desire to kill cops. As for the people who aren't coming out, I'm not sure how a peaceful not-standoff with no injuries or even a real clash does more to motivate them to violence than an armed standoff and siege. Showing them that they can come out and protest without being shot at won't completely quash violent tendencies, but it will weaken the standoff mentality and the persecution complex. Yeah, it's not like they're managing to get major national news organizations and political figures to parrot their talking points and concede rhetorical ground to them, how would the (lack of) response possibly motivate them to do more poo poo like this? 
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Jan 24, 2016 23:14
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Man I hope at least one of of sex toys has explodable batteries in it to burn the whole gently caress out of their hands. Also, casual poll: would the reaction be funnier if I sent them a copy of Instinct (gay sex mag) or a vial of ipecac with a note reading, 'not telling you why you're going to need this, but trust me, you will!' or similar?
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Jan 24, 2016 23:36
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