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ImpAtom posted:I really have no idea what Kudelia's presence is supposed to be. A random dude recognizes her from the news but Gjallerhorn and a literal news crew are like "who is that person we have no idea?!" She's obviously being broadcast prior to that if she's recognizable from the news and her death is supposed to be a significant thing except when people don't recognize her which appears to happen basically based off whatever the plot feels. It's the one thing that really drew me out of this episode. Gjallarhorn control the media. In general, people in the Earth sphere do not know who she is; they've heard the name, but there's no recordings of her speeches or interviews or anything for them to have seen. The trade union guys are the exception, because they're activists with connections, and have probably watched "illegal" recordings of her stuff.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:43
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Kanos posted:Generally it seems like everyone has at least heard of a person named Kudelia who is supposedly the patron saint of the downtrodden revolutionary, but very few of them have actually seen pictures or video of her. Even the union revolutionaries didn't know who she was until that one guy recognized her. Yeah, except for the union revolutionary who recognized her from the news this episode is what throws me off. I'd previously assumed that the people suggesting that Gjallerhorn had censored her broadcasts were right but apparently they didn't because she has been on the news, just... the people who look to her as a maiden of revolution haven't actually watched any of those broadcasts except for this one dude? It feels kind of forced to me. Lemon Curdistan posted:Gjallarhorn control the media. In general, people in the Earth sphere do not know who she is; they've heard the name, but there's no recordings of her speeches or interviews or anything for them to have seen. The trade union guys are the exception, because they're activists with connections, and have probably watched "illegal" recordings of her stuff. Only that one union guy recognized her. The others had no idea what she looked like. They mistake Merribit for her for example.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:45
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ImpAtom posted:Only that one union guy recognized her. The others had no idea what she looked like. They mistake Merribit for her for example. The others didn't really look in her general direction, especially the union reps. It might be a case that we're used to Kudelia's vastly striking features, but she's just another blonde until one guy took a closer look at her face. She didn't get noticed until she started yelling all over.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:47
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ImpAtom posted:They mistake Merribit for her for example. Yeah, because the handful of people who've seen her maybe once or twice in an illegal broadcast only vaguely know what she looks like (i.e. "blonde woman").
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Jan 24, 2016 17:50
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Tae posted:The others didn't really look in her general direction, especially the union reps. It might be a case that we're used to Kudelia's vastly striking features, but she's just another blonde until one guy took a closer look at her face. It might be but Gjallerhorn soldiers and an actual news crew didn't recognize her either in the same scene. Basically the only person since they've gotten to Dort 3 who has recognized Kudelia (aside from spies set up specifically to look for her) has been this one random Union dude who happens to be exactly what the plot needs to push Kudelia into the middle of the crowd. Even the 'illegal broadcast' thing is basically headcanon because all he says is that he saw her on the news. The entire "Gjallerhorn has been censoring her and that is why nobody knows what she looks like" thing is in fact never actually stated onscreen, it was just assumed because that was what made sense! It's not a show-breaking thing or anything but it did feel a little weird and forced to me. As I said it's the one thing this episode that felt like the plot was bending to get characters into place instead of characters being naturally in place.
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Jan 24, 2016 17:59
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I am just chalking it up to Iron Blooded Orphans being a universe with extremely limited bandwith in communications. Text dominates, followed by audio while video from non-local sources (especially when you get to the "frontier") is almost unheard of. Maybe that one guy recognized not her face, but her voice. Yeah it's head cannon, but maybe it fits.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:22
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I dunno what your problem is with it. A man with direct ties to and actively participating in this revolution recognizes her, random TV producer who doesn't seem to tied to either side particularly didn't.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:26
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 I really hope IBO gets 52 episodes.
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Jan 24, 2016 18:30
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Okada you're killing me.
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Jan 24, 2016 19:19
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That news crew has nerves of steel, considering they weren't that far outside the firing arc and were in spitting range of the corpses afterwards.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:05
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Well, that was telegraphed so hard it could be seen from Martian orbit. ImpAtom posted:The next episode preview was setting that up so hard I feel like it almost has to loop back around to him surviving. Although it would be hilarious if the enemy Gjallerhorn Gundam got Mika'd on its first launch.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:21
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Kudelia in literal shock while Mika pulled her out was bone-chilling. That deadpan "no, what are you doing, she's there" was just McMurdo is a slimy gently caress, but he was pretty frank about his intentions to Kudelia when they met. Unlike Nobliss though, he's banking on her surviving and becoming a leader favorably disposed to Teiwaz (if not outright in his pocket) instead of scoring a cheap symbol of revolution that can be easily manipulated since the dead don't talk. I hope Gaelio doesn't bite it next episode, though. He was visibly appalled at Gjallarhorn's handling of the protest.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:29
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Traveller posted:Kudelia in literal shock while Mika pulled her out was bone-chilling. That deadpan "no, what are you doing, she's there" was just "That's no longer Fumitan" is the most Mika thing.
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Jan 24, 2016 20:44
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I think the whole thing about Kudelia being some symbol of the revolution would work a lot better if we could see that big speech she gave. The show hasn't done anything to show me why people care about her it just constantly tells me that she is important. Even if it is just the idea of her that people have latched on to I want to see where that idea came from.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:03
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Ethiser posted:I think the whole thing about Kudelia being some symbol of the revolution would work a lot better if we could see that big speech she gave. The show hasn't done anything to show me why people care about her it just constantly tells me that she is important. Even if it is just the idea of her that people have latched on to I want to see where that idea came from. There's no reason to show it because it will never live up to what people expect such a speech to be and thus will do nothing but make viewers go "People are latching onto that?!?!"
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Jan 24, 2016 21:37
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Plus the last few episodes have shown that the idea of Kudelia's revolution is at this point a far bigger deal than the actual person herself. The only thing that matters so far is that Blond Chick Wants Change And Potentially Can Do It.
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Jan 24, 2016 21:44
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Tae posted:Plus the last few episodes have shown that the idea of Kudelia's revolution is at this point a far bigger deal than the actual person herself. The only thing that matters so far is that Blond Chick Wants Change And Potentially Can Do It. I'm looking forward to a time when she's not just a pawn anymore. What'd be interesting would be for her to actually become a pilot. It'd be pretty far outside the norm of the role she's currently playing in this series. Give up your ideals and realize violent struggle Kudelia! Dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed.  Also my only gripe this episode is that in a show where often I've had no clue if someone was likely to die, this death was forecast really really loving obviously and hard. They could've had it happen much less obviously and more spontaneously, giving her turnabout more meaning. Instead she gets Kudelia hosed over and herself killed for no real reason except that the plot demanded it. Mo_Steel fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jan 24, 2016 |
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Jan 24, 2016 23:08
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Oh Snapple! posted:There's no reason to show it because it will never live up to what people expect such a speech to be and thus will do nothing but make viewers go "People are latching onto that?!?!" Just watch the Char speech at Dakar from Zeta and pretend that's what happened here.
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Jan 24, 2016 23:24
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You always looked so tired Fumitan, you can rest now. Kudelia is doing really well for a Gundam Princess with no actual power or fighting ability, to bring change for better or worse. She is going to remain the soul of the group, Atra the heart and Merribit the brains. PS, more Merribit please.
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Jan 24, 2016 23:34
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Traveller posted:Kudelia in literal shock while Mika pulled her out was bone-chilling. That deadpan "no, what are you doing, she's there" was just I felt nothing when Fumitan died, because her death was telegraphed so hard that I was already after coming to terms with it when it happened. Frankly I'd already come to terms with it a week ago after the last episode, so by the time I watched this I felt nothing. That said, I thought the finale of that scene, with shell-shocked Kudelia refusing to accept Fumitans death was really well done, especially with Mika having to just literally drag her out from under Fumitan's corpse as she tries to deal with something she can't accept. I just wish everything leading up to it had been better done, because it would have been really harrowing emotional pay off if the set up had been better and Fumitan had been given more character before this episode. AradoBalanga posted:Alternately, it's Ein that gets Mika'd (or possibly taken down by Shino or Akihiro) instead of Gaelio. I'm assuming Ein is the cockroach that will survive multiple times while his commanders die and get more and more crazy each time, yet somehow manage to fall up the ladder in to better suits and teams to fail at least once more after this. Presumably with an AV system implanted at some point despite the risks because he's just too invested to not give himself every possible advantage. I hope he at least inherits the Kimaris, because it's a decent design and it'd be a shame to have it destroyed first time out the gate. Lemon Curdistan posted:Also, hell of a way to make us sympathise with McGillis even more. Tae posted:I think that's possibly the fastest a gundam opening has lied about mechs or characters. I feel dense as gently caress right now, because I have no idea what either of these posts is referring to, even after watching the opening and next episode preview (the only place McGillis appears this episode as far as I can tell) twice.
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Jan 25, 2016 00:13
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tsob posted:I feel dense as gently caress right now, because I have no idea what either of these posts is referring to, even after watching the opening and next episode preview (the only place McGillis appears this episode as far as I can tell) twice. McGillis thinks Gjallarhorn is corrupt as gently caress, and wants to use Kudelia's existence as an excuse to drive reform inside the organisation. Gjallarhorn false flagging bombings and firing machine guns are a crowd of protesters while going "don't worry, we control the media" is the show literally going LOOK AT HOW CORRUPT THEY ARE.
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Jan 25, 2016 00:18
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tsob posted:I feel dense as gently caress right now, because I have no idea what either of these posts is referring to, even after watching the opening and next episode preview (the only place McGillis appears this episode as far as I can tell) twice. Well uh, 1 character is shown twice in the opening.
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Jan 25, 2016 00:20
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Mo_Steel posted:
At the end, Kudelia will finally negotiate for the freedom of Chryse from Arbrau, which sets up a chain of mostly peaceful secessions from the other Martian city states. Gjallarhorn's power is reduced to a neutral arbiter under McGillis' internal reforms. Everyone is acknowledged as heroes and return to their lives, but Kudelia has one last thing to do and borrows Mika along. She meets Nobliss Gordon, who by now is convinced of her utility as a living leader instead of a dead symbol, they make genial small talk, and then she borrows Mika's pistol and kills him in cold blood. Her eyes are finally clouded.
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Jan 25, 2016 00:22
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Traveller posted:At the end, Kudelia will finally negotiate for the freedom of Chryse from Arbrau, which sets up a chain of mostly peaceful secessions from the other Martian city states. Gjallarhorn's power is reduced to a neutral arbiter under McGillis' internal reforms. Everyone is acknowledged as heroes and return to their lives, but Kudelia has one last thing to do and borrows Mika along. This honestly seems kind of plausible.
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Jan 25, 2016 00:34
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Lemon Curdistan posted:McGillis thinks Gjallarhorn is corrupt as gently caress, and wants to use Kudelia's existence as an excuse to drive reform inside the organisation. Gjallarhorn false flagging bombings and firing machine guns are a crowd of protesters while going "don't worry, we control the media" is the show literally going LOOK AT HOW CORRUPT THEY ARE. Oh right, I was thinking I'd missed an appearance of him within the episode itself somehow. Never mind. I don't really think this is any kind of revelation though, given that Coral was doing similar stuff in the first episodes and even Gaelio, McGillis' right hand man has been trying to abuse his position to chase revenge on some kid who embarrassed him. Tae posted:Well uh, 1 character is shown twice in the opening. It was just the mech part of the quote that threw me off then. Thanks.
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Jan 25, 2016 00:34
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tsob posted:Oh right, I was thinking I'd missed an appearance of him within the episode itself somehow. Never mind. I don't really think this is any kind of revelation though, given that Coral was doing similar stuff in the first episodes and even Gaelio, McGillis' right hand man has been trying to abuse his position to chase revenge on some kid who embarrassed him. I mean, sure, but there's a difference between "Gjallarhorn is a bunch of rich, spoilt assholes who want to preserve their position of privilege and will stoop to some pretty dodgy lows to kill off Kudelia before she can start a violent uprising" and false-flag bombing something as an excuse to literally gun down civilians in the middle of a busy street with tank-mounted machine guns, though. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 00:46
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I mean, sure, but there's a difference between "Gjallarhorn will stoop to some pretty dodgy lows to kill off Kudelia before she can start a violent uprising" and literally gunning down civilians in the middle of a busy street with tank-mounted machine guns, though. Also, Coral was presented to both the audience and Team McGillis as a corrupt local commander who'd been compromised by outside interests and by his distance from the organisation's main body. Having the Arianrhod Fleet, the core of Gjallarhorn, make what is implied to be a routine use of a false-flag to cull dissidents is a whole other story.
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Jan 25, 2016 00:50
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Lemon Curdistan posted:I mean, sure, but there's a difference between "Gjallarhorn is a bunch of rich, spoilt assholes who want to preserve their position of privilege and will stoop to some pretty dodgy lows to kill off Kudelia before she can start a violent uprising" and false-flag bombing something as an excuse to literally gun down civilians in the middle of a busy street with tank-mounted machine guns, though. Popping a bunch of smoke before gunning them all down was a nice touch, I thought. And goodbye Fumitan, I'll miss seeing you every week.  Edit: whoever is doing the text editing is still bringing it; the news caption and the signs on the elevator Fumitan was on were all error-free.
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Jan 25, 2016 00:52
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ImpAtom posted:I really have no idea what Kudelia's presence is supposed to be. A random dude recognizes her from the news but Gjallerhorn and a literal news crew are like "who is that person we have no idea?!" She's obviously being broadcast prior to that if she's recognizable from the news and her death is supposed to be a significant thing except when people don't recognize her which appears to happen basically based off whatever the plot feels. It's the one thing that really drew me out of this episode. They all know who she is on Mars, and it's probably more for putting down an entire planet of dissidents than a few stray Unionists. All it would've ended with is a broadcast across the Ariadne network to Mars that can be summarized as "Your so-called Maiden of the Revolution was smuggling illegal weapons and starting riots instead of bringing peace talks like she said she was  . Now shut the gently caress up and get back to toiling under us".
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Jan 25, 2016 02:23
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Darth Walrus posted:Also, Coral was presented to both the audience and Team McGillis as a corrupt local commander who'd been compromised by outside interests and by his distance from the organisation's main body. Having the Arianrhod Fleet, the core of Gjallarhorn, make what is implied to be a routine use of a false-flag to cull dissidents is a whole other story. If I had to pick something I haven't liked about the buildup it's this. Having a massive core pillar of Gjallarhorn be so nakedly comic book villain evil is less interesting than if the organization as a whole was still salvageable but was riddled with bad apples like Coral. Then again I'm not entirely sure why Gjallarhorn is jackbooting economic protesters because I was under the impression that most economic interests like the Dort colonies would be under control of the power blocs and thus subject to the power bloc's brutal fascist police crackdowns.
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Jan 25, 2016 03:58
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Kanos posted:If I had to pick something I haven't liked about the buildup it's this. Having a massive core pillar of Gjallarhorn be so nakedly comic book villain evil is less interesting than if the organization as a whole was still salvageable but was riddled with bad apples like Coral. quote:Then again I'm not entirely sure why Gjallarhorn is jackbooting economic protesters because I was under the impression that most economic interests like the Dort colonies would be under control of the power blocs and thus subject to the power bloc's brutal fascist police crackdowns. Now the question is whether they bother to retake the other colony cylinders by force or they just evacuate all the air and let everyone suffocate.
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Jan 25, 2016 04:34
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Yeah, there's nothing unbelievable and Gjallerhorn's tactics except that they actually thought they needed to hide it.
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Jan 25, 2016 04:37
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, there's nothing unbelievable and Gjallerhorn's tactics except that they actually thought they needed to hide it. Honestly, that, too, is strikebreaking 101. Groups like the Pinkertons actually ran adverts boasting of their success in infiltrating and radicalising unions, and a state prosecutor in America was forced to resign after being caught advocating for it five years ago. In the context of the show, Gjallarhorn do have a reputation to uphold as reputable, neutral arbiters so Earth's nations don't start getting cranky.
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Jan 25, 2016 04:50
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The Sandman posted:Their entire regime is built on them having an absolute monopoly on violence off of Earth's surface. They can't allow the blocs to bring the sort of weaponry they'd need to efficiently massacre dissidents onto the colonies. You don't need heavy weaponry to murder protesters. I would have much preferred a scene where a power bloc's police did the murdering and then when poo poo started to go real they cut a deal with someone from Gjallarhorn instead of projecting the image that Gjallarhorn is effectively the single evil responsible for everything bad and unjust in the setting. It feels like they could have gotten rid of the entire concept of economic blocs and just said "Gjallarhorn rules the entire planet" and little would have changed from the present situation besides Kudelia going to negotiate with some Gjallarhorn dude instead of an economic bloc official.
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Jan 25, 2016 12:07
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Gjallarhorn has never been a sole evil, the prewar blocs have committed plenty of crimes in the past. Considering the existence of Nobliss, the show is exceedingly cynical about his and the bloc's vision of post-Gjallarhorn society. This show is about unequal power relationships, not one single power.
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Jan 25, 2016 12:25
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Kanos posted:You don't need heavy weaponry to murder protesters. I would have much preferred a scene where a power bloc's police did the murdering and then when poo poo started to go real they cut a deal with someone from Gjallarhorn instead of projecting the image that Gjallarhorn is effectively the single evil responsible for everything bad and unjust in the setting. It feels like they could have gotten rid of the entire concept of economic blocs and just said "Gjallarhorn rules the entire planet" and little would have changed from the present situation besides Kudelia going to negotiate with some Gjallarhorn dude instead of an economic bloc official. Did you not see the three Mobile Workers the protesters had? Gjallarhorn actually met the Unionists with an equal measured force. They just had much better-built vehicles. The whole point of them even having Mobile Workers was "LOOK THEY HAVE MOBILE WORKERS! LOOK, THEY OPENED FIRE FIRST! DEFEND! DEFEND!  "
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Jan 25, 2016 12:28
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My interpretation was that both Gjallarhorn and whatever blocs Nobliss represents had a hand in the massacre. Gjallarhorn gets to cull protesters and signal to the blocs that they are the only ones competent to funnel resources from the colonies to the homeworld, Nobliss makes Gjallarhorn bite off more than they can chew, rebellions flare everywhere and the blocs have an opportunity to declare independence from Gjallarhorn, whereupon they acquire Gjallarhorn's cut of the resources and the colonies are thrown some bones.
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Jan 25, 2016 12:37
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The events of the show are being driven by the greed of both Gjallarhorn and the Blocs. Gjallarhorn have been growing fat and decadent off their monopoly on space violence. The blocs are getting greedy and want in on Gjallarhorn's cut, with no care for the stability of the post-Gjallarhorn order.
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Jan 25, 2016 13:00
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Phobophilia posted:Gjallarhorn has never been a sole evil, the prewar blocs have committed plenty of crimes in the past. Considering the existence of Nobliss, the show is exceedingly cynical about his and the bloc's vision of post-Gjallarhorn society. The backstory supports what you've said but literally everything bad we've actually seen happen onscreen has been either directly or indirectly because of Gjallarhorn. Even Nobliss's maneuverings have been entirely based around assuming Gjallarhorn is going to react in the most extreme possible way at every opportunity, which has mostly been correct. I guess it's harshing my buzz a little bit that for all the depth and effort that is going into fleshing out the protagonists we're seeing little to none of that on the antagonist side outside of Chocolate Man who still hasn't actually done anything yet besides blow Fumitan's cover. Seeing cackling Gjallarhorn troopers beating the poo poo out of a teenage girl or grinning in glee as they're about to mow down a bunch of unarmed protesters just makes me roll my eyes.
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Jan 25, 2016 13:12
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Kanos posted:The backstory supports what you've said but literally everything bad we've actually seen happen onscreen has been either directly or indirectly because of Gjallarhorn. That's because Gjallarhorn are the visible face of the oppressive Earth régime and the show's direct antagonists because from a narrative convention point of view it's easier to have one faction with cool toys as the bad guys than it is to go "there are many factors contributing to the oppression of colonial and Martian labourers and really, when you think about it, the proletariat's enemies are systemic in nature." 
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 14:08
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