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tsa posted:And did you know the only reason nothing has happened to the militia is because they are white? Makes me so mad,smdh. This one is actually true, though.
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Jan 25, 2016 04:34
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Keep in mind, Harney county is slightly larger than New Jersey, and has a population under 8000. I'm sure a large part of why they are being left alone is that they are pretty much in the middle of nowhere. Compare it to OWS, which had plenty of non-whites, trespassed on public land, and did it in the middle of urban centers to get as much attention as possible, and was also allowed to run on for months. Speaking as an Oregonian, these clowns could occupy the refuge headquarters for years and that act by itself will effect no one except the employees who work there. If I wanted to go see the birds, I could do it without seeing the militants, for the same reason that they cannot be blockaded out. The refuge is some 200 square miles. The 30 people occupying it can't patrol that much space, and really can't do much to seriously gently caress up the refuge. And this hasn't even reached half the craziness levels of the Rajneeshes, who actually did bring in hundreds of people, had an armed militia, took over the nearby town, and tried to use biological weapons to take over the entire county.
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Jan 25, 2016 04:53
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Beowulfs_Ghost posted:Keep in mind, Harney county is slightly larger than New Jersey, and has a population under 8000. That is only true if there's a blockade and movement is restricted. With full range of movement they've been able to greatly affect nearby families and their movement has very much had a harsh effect on their neighbors.
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Jan 25, 2016 04:58
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Beowulfs_Ghost posted:Speaking as an Oregonian, these clowns could occupy the refuge headquarters for years and that act by itself will effect no one except the employees who work there. If I wanted to go see the birds, I could do it without seeing the militants, for the same reason that they cannot be blockaded out. The refuge is some 200 square miles. The 30 people occupying it can't patrol that much space, and really can't do much to seriously gently caress up the refuge. You'd be surprised. Ranchers and farmers have hosed up large swaths of land in the past with much less than an army at their backs.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:03
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Lotka Volterra posted:You'd be surprised. Ranchers and farmers have hosed up large swaths of land in the past with much less than an army at their backs. Well, if they start lighting fires, they can share a cell with the Hammonds.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:08
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red19fire posted:What happened with the elder Bundy? Is the government going to collect on that million dollars he owes? He's basically undefended right now (unless he still has that entourage), it would be a great time for a surgical strike arresting the head of the beast, which could maybe rile up the Oregon buffoons into doing something dumb. Or I guess they could add the bill from this standoff to his tab. He still has the entourage. mugrim posted:That is only true if there's a blockade and movement is restricted. With full range of movement they've been able to greatly affect nearby families and their movement has very much had a harsh effect on their neighbors. A blockade isn't viable on that location. Hangers-on were in the town and immediate area before the occupation even began. The people occupying the compound are a different set of people than the people harassing the local population.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:13
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Discendo Vox posted:He still has the entourage. quote:NPR's Kirk Siegler tells Morning Edition that the last time he visited Bundy's ranch, he noticed that the BLM had "completely pulled off." Sounds like their guard is down.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:16
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I think it's clear that they have won.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:19
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At this point we're all writing FBI fanfiction. https://twitter.com/Oregonian/status/691447878628315136 A reminder that this guy is an honored member of the local SovCit committee.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:20
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Feds really dropped the ball on this fiasco
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Jan 25, 2016 05:26
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SedanChair posted:
Hey guys, you remember how there was nothing more important than making sure these guys couldn't declare victory about this? Fuckin' funny how that works out, isn't it?
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Jan 25, 2016 05:27
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Discendo Vox posted:He still has the entourage. Hangers on are still interacting with the reserve though correct? I was under the impression that while the main group was still there, people are going back and forth and leaving for extended periods of time?
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Jan 25, 2016 05:28
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There is only one solution to this:quote:"I think what I’d do, as president, is I would make a phone call to whoever, to the group," Trump said in an interview with the New York Times editorial board published in part on Thursday.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:28
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Oil of Paris posted:Feds really dropped the ball on this fiasco we should cut their funding as punishment
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Jan 25, 2016 05:28
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Salt Fish posted:There is only one solution to this: and there it is... this is one of the worst outcomes republican candidates are now lauding these guys and recognizing their efforts. this pretty much means we will be seeing repeats of this for the next 4-8 years
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Jan 25, 2016 05:31
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Condiv posted:and there it is... this is one of the worst outcomes doesn't mean much when none of those candidates will be in the white house
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Jan 25, 2016 05:34
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enraged_camel posted:we should cut their funding as punishment I'm not so reactionary, just calling it how I see it. Seems like a lot of mistakes and simpleton politicking
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Jan 25, 2016 05:35
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enraged_camel posted:doesn't mean much when none of those candidates will be in the white house That's a very short-sighted opinion and I hope that you realize why I say that
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Jan 25, 2016 05:37
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Salt Fish posted:There is only one solution to this: And Trump doesn't take no for an answer There's depositions stating exactly this
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Jan 25, 2016 05:40
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mugrim posted:Hangers on are still interacting with the reserve though correct? I was under the impression that while the main group was still there, people are going back and forth and leaving for extended periods of time? No. As per Prester's earlier post, you're overestimating the cohesion of this group, and the militia movement overall. Most of the people in town at the beginning were with other militia groups that came for the protest immediately before the occupation began. Most of them were peaceful, many were cranks or on the right fringe, some left, some came back, and a number have been sitting in town, stroking their ARs ever since the occupation began. There are a whole subset of crazy fringers in town, who have been there since the occupation started. They've never been to the compound, and some of them have never interacted with the occupiers in any way. "blockading" the compound means some subset of these people think the final war has begun and open fire on whatever they're fixated on in the immediate area. This has been the situation from day 1. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 05:45
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It is "Always" the final war.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:47
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k35haKwqY14
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Jan 25, 2016 05:48
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Discendo Vox posted:"blockading" the compound means some subset of these people think the final war has begun and open fire on whatever they're fixated on in the immediate area. This has been the situation from day 1. And that subset is never going to stop thinking that way, so there's absolutely no reason to let them hang around. You're never going to catch them alone so waiting for that isn't feasible. There was absolutely no upside to not shutting this down from the start.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:49
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Just build a wall around it and invoice them for the cost.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:51
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Who What Now posted:And that subset is never going to stop thinking that way, so there's absolutely no reason to let them hang around. You're never going to catch them alone so waiting for that isn't feasible. There was absolutely no upside to not shutting this down from the start. You get the media to leave the occupiers alone and the occupiers lose their line of oxygen and credibility. They leave and you arrest them quietly in separate locations. Your proposal involves a lot of folks dying and a lot more members for the militia movement.
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Jan 25, 2016 05:56
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Salt Fish posted:There is only one solution to this: Now, if you want a real case of "they won't be arrested because they're white conservatives", this is the shitbag that would do it
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Jan 25, 2016 05:57
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Anosmoman posted:Just build a wall around it and invoice them for the cost. Is that the Trump doctrine?
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Jan 25, 2016 05:58
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Discendo Vox posted:You get the media to leave the occupiers alone and the occupiers lose their line of oxygen and credibility. They leave and you arrest them quietly in separate locations. Your proposal involves a lot of folks dying and a lot more members for the militia movement. No, they won't leave without attention, they'll just do more and more dangerous stunts until they get the attention they want. I'll ask you for the hundredth time, when has ignoring a problem like this ever worked?
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Jan 25, 2016 06:05
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Discendo Vox posted:No. As per Prester's earlier post, you're overestimating the cohesion of this group, and the militia movement overall. Most of the people in town at the beginning were with other militia groups that came for the protest immediately before the occupation began. Most of them were peaceful, many were cranks or on the right fringe, some left, some came back, and a number have been sitting in town, stroking their ARs ever since the occupation began. There are a whole subset of crazy fringers in town, who have been there since the occupation started. They've never been to the compound, and some of them have never interacted with the occupiers in any way. But I'm not just talking about from the beginning. The guys are still getting packages and media is going to them. How has Bundy been in so many places when he was part of the original protest? There's clearly some permeability there.
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Jan 25, 2016 06:10
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Discendo Vox posted:A blockade isn't viable on that location. This is definitely true, having looked at the site. If you want to see what the area is, go to Google Earth or something at the coordinates 43°15′55″N 118°50′39″W. The wildlife refuge is set right in the middle of a gigantic open plain, with only a fairly small hill along one side that isn't practically flat land for miles around. You'd need enough cops to literally surround the refuge in a 360 degree circle to effectively blockade it.
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Jan 25, 2016 07:30
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Discendo Vox posted:No. As per Prester's earlier post, you're overestimating the cohesion of this group, and the militia movement overall. Most of the people in town at the beginning were with other militia groups that came for the protest immediately before the occupation began. Most of them were peaceful, many were cranks or on the right fringe, some left, some came back, and a number have been sitting in town, stroking their ARs ever since the occupation began. There are a whole subset of crazy fringers in town, who have been there since the occupation started. They've never been to the compound, and some of them have never interacted with the occupiers in any way. Um. Sorry, but from everything I've been reading, and it's been an embarrassing amount, while there are militants in town that have never been a part of the main group, and there are apparently some internal power politics going on, the guys at Malheur can and do leave the refuge daily, occasionally to take cross-country trips (there was one just recently to Utah). A number of them aren't even staying the night there, they're staying in Burns in motels. Santilli is one of these. Plus, it seems like Blaine Cooper, aka 'I kidnapped my kids from CPS/before CPS could get them' is now back at the refuge too, possibly with his girls (I saw an article that hinted at this, but they were being coy about who the parents were, so it's unclear. That or the girls are with their mom who is hopefully NOT at Malheur). Hearsay, of course, but a friend's father was in Burns within the past few days. He said there are heavily armed people just strolling through town now, and not occasionally either. Also pretty sure one of the tweets I posted was of one of the refuge militants talking about stalking government workers. These guys aren't staying at the refuge. Why would they? They can go wherever they want without fear of arrest, apparently.
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Jan 25, 2016 07:48
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Who What Now posted:And that subset is never going to stop thinking that way, so there's absolutely no reason to let them hang around. You're never going to catch them alone so waiting for that isn't feasible. There was absolutely no upside to not shutting this down from the start. 3 or so of them have been arrested, that we know of, so far
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Jan 25, 2016 07:48
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theflyingorc posted:3 or so of them have been arrested, that we know of, so far Was it 3? I know the guy who drove the stolen truck and the guy with the guns who had the truck with false plates. Was there a third? I know there was a third who got himself a traffic ticket for crashing.
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Jan 25, 2016 08:00
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chitoryu12 posted:This is definitely true, having looked at the site. If you want to see what the area is, go to Google Earth or something at the coordinates 43°15′55″N 118°50′39″W. The wildlife refuge is set right in the middle of a gigantic open plain, with only a fairly small hill along one side that isn't practically flat land for miles around. You'd need enough cops to literally surround the refuge in a 360 degree circle to effectively blockade it. I don't know how big your perimeter or how dense it is, but there is a stream that runs north south then east west that has roads running across them as natural chock points. Then a handful of roads running in and out from the south. Bock them off and you are pretty much sorted as anybody taking the plains are going to have to move slowly unless they want to wreak their vehicle. At 5 people per road block that's 25 guys a shift. If you want to reduce your manpower you can even block off some of the roads with dirt. You can cut it down even more if you use armoured vehicles which would allow an even tighter perimeter. It wouldn't be physically airtight, but you would spot anyone trying to leave or enter so you can respond. You are setting your goals too high so you can say you can't hit them.
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Jan 25, 2016 08:13
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chitoryu12 posted:Was it 3? I know the guy who drove the stolen truck and the guy with the guns who had the truck with false plates. Was there a third? I know there was a third who got himself a traffic ticket for crashing. I could have sworn i read something that said 3, but one may have been that one you listed. Anyway, not many arrests, but they're grabbing people when they're free to do so without consequences
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Jan 25, 2016 08:21
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No, they aren't. They're "grabbing" people when these idiots leave them absolutely no choice otherwise. When this thing is finally over, there are going to be maybe a couple of arrests, with nothing but minor charges. The most laughable take of all on this whole thing is that the FBI is "letting them incriminate themselves more" and similar ridiculousness.
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Jan 25, 2016 08:47
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oohhboy posted:I don't know how big your perimeter or how dense it is, but there is a stream that runs north south then east west that has roads running across them as natural chock points. Then a handful of roads running in and out from the south. Bock them off and you are pretty much sorted as anybody taking the plains are going to have to move slowly unless they want to wreak their vehicle. At 5 people per road block that's 25 guys a shift. If you want to reduce your manpower you can even block off some of the roads with dirt. You can cut it down even more if you use armoured vehicles which would allow an even tighter perimeter. But what difference would it really make if they could get 100 cops to man several road blocks? The county is the size of New Jersey and some 70% of it is Federal land. They could go "occupy" some where else. They could also get a sympathetic rancher to put them up. They are already trying to get some to stop paying grazing fees and offer them "protection", and they could set up repeat of the Cliven Bundy standoff on private land.
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Jan 25, 2016 08:47
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If there were enough people to occupy a second site they would have done so already. Doing it on private land doesn't make the same statement and isn't illegal. The Rancher hosting them would end up financially ruined over not paying grazing fees and probably find their ability to do business restricted. Blocking them off gives you control over supplies, information, movement, therefore gives you the upper hand on any negotiation. You can't eat bullets for food. Because they have taken so long to respond, a blockade now would take a much longer time to resolve than the first couple days where they were completely unprepared.
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Jan 25, 2016 09:04
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oohhboy posted:If there were enough people to occupy a second site they would have done so already. Doing it on private land doesn't make the same statement and isn't illegal. The Rancher hosting them would end up financially ruined over not paying grazing fees and probably find their ability to do business restricted. Actually, how's Cliven Bundy doing post-standoff? I haven't heard of financial ruination visiting him despite his actions, though I suppose it could just be a thing that wasn't focused on. He definitely wasn't ruined over grazing fees because he never had to pay those. Also, topic of not paying fees, despite that big show the militants put on only one rancher actually tore up his contracts apparently. I wonder how that's going to go. (Probably nowhere because no one is punishing these guys.)
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Jan 25, 2016 12:30
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mugrim posted:I've been reading a LOT about cults of late for research for a fictional book and the prevailing theme is that reality doesn't matter so catering to them is pretty much a losing scenario anyways, all you can really do in the immediate is try and control physical relationships (which is why cult leaders desperately create strict rules on who people talk to, when their curfew is, etc). Remember, people here keep talking about Waco provoking the OKC bombings but forget that Waco didn't end with the feds killing everyone but with good ol' Vernon deciding he'd take the ship down with the captain and lighting a fire. But the reality of the situation was warped by the militias because that's what they do. Obviously try to limit lives lost, but starting with the assumption that there is a way where no lives are lost is foolish, especially when you do nothing to limit their access to connecting to the other crazies. This is great. Can you share any of your research material/reading recommends?
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