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PT6A posted:Those people are wrong. He was a whacknut who was brandishing a prohibited weapon and failing to follow police instructions. You can't do that and then be surprised when you get shot; at best, you should be extremely thankful if you don't get shot. Thanks for that hot take. We appreciate your dedication to defending the police. The TPS has a bit of a problem with shooting when it's not absolutely necessary. This man had a pocket knife, but they've also shot people with scissors, a hammer, and occasionally completely unarmed. In each case the main factor was the person was "emotionally disturbed". In this specific case Yatim had taken some research stimulants and was having a bad time of it. When he was shot, he was alone, in an enclosed controlled environment (a streetcar). Arguably he was a threat to no one but himself.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:17
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quote:http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...ive-counselling A well managed police force indeed.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:17
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PT6A posted:Those people are wrong. He was a whacknut who was brandishing a prohibited weapon and failing to follow police instructions. You can't do that and then be surprised when you get shot; at best, you should be extremely thankful if you don't get shot. I never wish mental illness on anyone but you are making it real hard for me to continue to do so and also not hope that you have a run in with the law. "Oh man I stopped taking my meds and went out into the street naked swinging a spork wildly around and the police shot me 11 times. I survived, but I probably deserved death."
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Jan 25, 2016 19:18
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PT6A posted:The first round of shots was justified, the second was not. If the first killed him, the second did not and therefore the only crime was that Forcillo intended to kill someone, unjustifiably, but did not actually do so. Seems like the correct verdict. The verdict still doesn't fit the facts. Since the second volley would have also contributed to Yatim's death (or at least the speed of it), it can be said to be one of the things that actually killed him, so it's not attempted murder. If Yatim was already dead by the time the second volley was fired, it's also not attempted murder, because you can't kill someone who's already dead.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:18
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infernal machines posted:Guilty of attempting to murder a man who subsequently died, but not guilty of killing him. Actually, as PT6A mentioned, guilty of trying to murder a man who was already dead. Hence, not guilty of murder - since the charge requires you to actually have killed someone unjustifiably. I'm not going to pretend I'm terribly happy with the result - in my opinion, the police should have backed off ten meters or so and kept Yatim contained until he either surrendered or charged out of the streetcar, knife in hand, in which case the shooting would have been completely justified. E: what I am saying is that this verdict makes sense if you believe that Forcillo believed that Yatim was about to attack him with deadly force, and was reasonably justified in so believing. If you do not believe that, of course, Forcillo should have been found guilty of murder. David Corbett fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 19:20
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↑ edit: I think Forcillo might have believed that, but I don't think such a belief was reasonable.PT6A posted:Those people are wrong. He was a whacknut who was brandishing a prohibited weapon and failing to follow police instructions. You can't do that and then be surprised when you get shot; at best, you should be extremely thankful if you don't get shot. Merely failing to follow police instructions, in the absence of actually posing a threat to someone, does not justify the use of lethal force. Remember that Yatim was not actually within striking distance of anyone when he was shot. tagesschau fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 19:29
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Members of the public tried to gain entry to a so-called "public hearing" on Kinder Morgan's pipeline expansion project yesterday and were arrested. No members of the public are allowed to attend the public hearing.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:30
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tagesschau posted:The verdict still doesn't fit the facts. Since the second volley would have also contributed to Yatim's death (or at least the speed of it), it can be said to be one of the things that actually killed him, so it's not attempted murder. If Yatim was already dead by the time the second volley was fired, it's also not attempted murder, because you can't kill someone who's already dead. I think the court/jury questioned the idea that the second volley caused/contributed to Yatim's death given the areas where they hit him, but I'm not a doctor so I have no idea on the correct take there. My read is that the jury couldn't agree that the first volley was unjustified, but did agree that the second was, and since they didn't believe that the second volley contributed to his death (since he was already dead and since the second volley didn't hit him anywhere vital) you get this verdict. (alternatively it is a compromise verdict based on no coherent legal theory at all but rather on the preferred outcome for the dueling biases at play in the jury room, but since we'll never know which we'll all come to the conclusion that suits us - mine being that jury trials are The Worst and I wish there was any realistic prospect of them going away forever.)
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Jan 25, 2016 19:33
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It's correct that our system requires a very high standard of proof, especially for serious charges like murder. If there is doubt, you cannot and should not convict, even if the person on trial is a police officer.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:38
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Agreed. Although manslaughter was an option in place of finding him guilty of second-degree murder. Instead we've decided that as long as the police believe they're justified in using lethal force, they are in fact justified in using lethal force. Their judgement cannot be questioned.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:40
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Dallan Invictus posted:(alternatively it is a compromise verdict based on no coherent legal theory at all but rather on the preferred outcome for the dueling biases at play in the jury room, but since we'll never know which we'll all come to the conclusion that suits us - mine being that jury trials are The Worst and I wish there was any realistic prospect of them going away forever.) You could go with what Japan does and have it in front of a panel of judges. Of course they have an over 99% conviction rate but hey, none of those pesky juries!
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Jan 25, 2016 19:40
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Furnaceface posted:I never wish mental illness on anyone but you are making it real hard for me to continue to do so and also not hope that you have a run in with the law. So, if I show my gentleman's sausage to a bunch of strangers on the train, threaten them with a knife, and then continue to threaten the police with a knife when they come to deal with me, I shouldn't expect to get shot? It's unfortunate that he did this because of a bad trip or mental illness, but the presence of those factors do not excuse his actions or render him less of a threat.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:41
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:You could go with what Japan does and have it in front of a panel of judges. Japan's conviction rate would exist even if they had juries.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:43
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PT6A posted:So, if I show my gentleman's sausage to a bunch of strangers on the train, threaten them with a knife, and then continue to threaten the police with a knife when they come to deal with me, I shouldn't expect to get shot? It's unfortunate that he did this because of a bad trip or mental illness, but the presence of those factors do not excuse his actions or render him less of a threat. What rendered him less of a threat was the part where he was completely contained, alone, on the streetcar. There was no immediate need to do anything, let alone shoot him. There was no one physically present for him to harm, and no time factor that necessitated an immediate resolution.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:43
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THC posted:Members of the public tried to gain entry to a so-called "public hearing" on Kinder Morgan's pipeline expansion project yesterday and were arrested. No members of the public are allowed to attend the public hearing. I think it was because you have to register and jump through ridiculous hoops to get into the hearings.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:44
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infernal machines posted:Agreed. Although manslaughter was an option in place of finding him guilty of second-degree murder. To be fair, if I'm reading it right manslaughter and attempted murder have the same penalty (min four years), so the effect is the same 
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Jan 25, 2016 19:51
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I think we can all agree that we should ban all handguns, especially from cops.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:51
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Cultural Imperial posted:I think we can all agree that we should ban all handguns, especially from cops. I agree with Cultural Imperial
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Jan 25, 2016 19:52
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PT6A posted:So, if I show my gentleman's sausage to a bunch of strangers on the train, threaten them with a knife, and then continue to threaten the police with a knife when they come to deal with me, I shouldn't expect to get shot? It's unfortunate that he did this because of a bad trip or mental illness, but the presence of those factors do not excuse his actions or render him less of a threat. He was contained and clearly in distress. The police had all the time in the world to wait it out but instead they continue to show a lack of restraint in wanting a quick resolution. This is something that needs to be addressed at the academy level because its a failure in basic training.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:52
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Save up your anger for when the cop's lawyers inevitably get the conviction overturned on appeal.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:54
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Furnaceface posted:He was contained and clearly in distress. The police had all the time in the world to wait it out but instead they continue to show a lack of restraint in wanting a quick resolution. Yep! This here is the problem.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:55
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infernal machines posted:Instead we've decided that as long as the police believe they're justified in using lethal force, they are in fact justified in using lethal force. Literally true; yes. quote:Their judgement cannot be questioned. No. From R v Harris: quote:Note that section reads “reasonable grounds” and not “reasonable and probable grounds”. The person whose use of force is considered under this section is entitled to be wrong in their belief that deadly force was necessary as long as that belief was reasonable. You absolutely can question the reasonableness of the cop's belief that he needed to use lethal force. I haven't been following this one too closely because I figured it was a fait accompli, given how Forcillo's gun spends more time in his hand than it does in the vault, so now I'm going to have to go back and read the stupid coverage and the stupid decision to find the stupid reason why this obvious question wasn't asked and that makes me unhappy. e: The underlying theme behind legal survivability in UOF cases is your ability to articulate what you did. "If you can explain it, you can do it" was the motto drilled into us again and again, partly because it encouraged people to think about what they were doing and partly because it encouraged people to keep their minds open to possibilities beyond firearms and batons. If you can explain WHY you thought that ten year old was going to pick up a piano and bash your brains in with it, and the judge believes that you actually believed that, you're probably going home tonight. If you can't explain why you believed something, they're going to tell you "You didn't actually believe that" and you're going to go to jail and you're going to deserve it for doing something without a good, provable reason. Today I learned there's a good, provable reason why a child with a knife inside a bus should be shot by people who are standing outside the bus saying words to him. Furnaceface posted:He was contained and clearly in distress. The police had all the time in the world to wait it out but instead they continue to show a lack of restraint in wanting a quick resolution. I was trained to do just that. "Why are you engaging right now? What's wrong with the situation that you think needs changing right now?"
flakeloaf fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 19:56
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Cultural Imperial posted:I think we can all agree that we should ban all handguns, especially from cops. We're giving them Carbine C8s too now. Maybe they'll be more careful with them.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:56
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infernal machines posted:We're giving them Carbine C8s too now. Perimeter rifles belong on the perimeter. Somebody behind the next mentally ill child on a bus is going to loving die.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:58
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flakeloaf posted:You absolutely can question the reasonableness of the cop's belief that he needed to use lethal force. I haven't been following this one too closely because I figured it was a fait accompli, given how Forcillo's gun spends more time in his hand than it does in the vault, so now I'm going to have to go back and read the stupid coverage and the stupid decision to find the stupid reason why this obvious question wasn't asked. I'm being flippant, to suggest that regardless of the letter of the law, practically speaking the soundness of their judgement is not questioned. Don't misunderstand me, it was quite literally questioned during this trial, and several other responding officers were asked to corroborate the story being used to justify his choice. But despite the prosecution pointing out that Forcillo's claims, and those of the other responding officers, do not match up with either the video evidence or each other, it was determined that his judgement was sound. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 20:01
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Remember all the alligator tears for all of Justin bourque's victims?????
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Jan 25, 2016 20:01
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In other criminal justice news that should get everyone riled up, serial child abusing predator Graham James has been given day parole! He only abused three children (that we know of), I'm sure he's learned his lesson... 
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Jan 25, 2016 20:03
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infernal machines posted:I'm being flippant, to suggest that regardless of the letter of the law, practically speaking the soundness of their judgement is not questioned. Don't misunderstand me, it was quite literally questioned during this trial, and several other responding officers were asked to corroborate the story being used to justify his choice. But despite the defense pointing out that Forcillo's claims, and those of the other responding officers, do not match up with either the video evidence or each other, it was determined that his judgement was sound. Whoops, didn't spot that because I wasn't following the case. Knowing that yeah your sarcasm is obvious and it's totally called for because what in the crap? They actually bought that story? Urhghhrhhghh my head is melting
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Jan 25, 2016 20:03
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Cultural Imperial posted:Remember all the alligator tears for all of Justin bourque's victims????? TBF, this is specifically why they're being given the carbines. The RCMP report following that incident gave the recommendation for deploying the rifles to regular police units.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:04
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I sure hope police don't miss with their C8's in the city, they will be significantly more dangerous than errant glock fire.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:06
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Anyone who thinks the police were in immediate danger from Sammy Yatim has clearly never tried to exit a TTC streetcar quickly. Those steps are steep enough that the police would have had plenty of warning if he was actually trying to exit the vehicle instead of just moving around inside it.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:08
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vyelkin posted:Anyone who thinks the police were in immediate danger from Sammy Yatim has clearly never tried to exit a TTC streetcar quickly. Those steps are steep enough that the police would have had plenty of warning if he was actually trying to exit the vehicle instead of just moving around inside it. He would've hit his head on the top portion. The time to reach the officers if he tried was easily well over 5 seconds. ed: I need to read the verdict, but a crime scene recreation with similar actors would've shown this. I'd be surprised if this wasn't shown by the prosecution. Risky Bisquick fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 20:10
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It's ok, any bystanders killed by the police will just add to the charges of who ever the police were shooting at. Don't listen to the police fast enough when they start yelling at you with guns drawn and decide to open fire? Well that family behind you wasn't killed by the police, they were killed as a result of your criminal non-cooperation with the police that forced them to open fire. It's just like when the police kill people in pointless and avoidable car chases, it's the fleeing vehicle's fault.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:11
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I'm sorry PT6A but we live in a society where once a situation has gone from being a danger to others to just dangerous to the person causing it, we aren't allowed to loving murder them because its more convenient and less costly than trying to resolve the situation without killing them. The fact that you don't understand this is highly disturbing.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:11
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I'm very lucky that all the times I've had bad trips I was surrounded by compassionate human beings instead of roided up, easily frightened monkeys with guns and probable rage issues.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:13
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Cultural Imperial posted:Remember all the alligator tears for all of Justin bourque's victims????? Is that the guy who molested Theo fleury?
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Jan 25, 2016 20:17
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flakeloaf posted:
I come from a family that has many (now retired) police. They all say the same thing about the most recent incidents; these police arent trained the same way they were when it comes to peaceful resolution. A lot of the blame comes from the increasing militarization of police forces as deadly force and quick judgement/resolution is much higher priority and is in fact being taught at the very basic level in police forces across this country. While I dont doubt that you got this training, it is clearly not being taught to everyone or at least not getting put in the proper set of priorities.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:18
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The Duggler posted:Is that the guy who molested Theo fleury? Nah hes the RCMP killer from out east. He shot a bunch of cops with a rifle, and the cops only had glocks.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:18
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The Duggler posted:Is that the guy who molested Theo fleury? It's the SovCit nut who decided to go on a cop killing spree in NB.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:18
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The Duggler posted:Is that the guy who molested Theo fleury? Ironically, I think that was this guy: PT6A posted:In other criminal justice news that should get everyone riled up, serial child abusing predator Graham James has been given day parole! He only abused three children (that we know of), I'm sure he's learned his lesson... Whereas THAT guy was the libertarian wingnut who shot a couple of cops in Moncton.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:20
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