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Waffles Inc. posted:...and then with TFA we even see scrub pilots get blown away with little fanfaire and never thing that Poe is in danger or that the Resistance is going to fail, there's never that same sense of urgency or dire threat. It falls completely flat. There was also for me a sense of "reverse plot armor" or maybe I should call it "legacy armor". The whole idea that R2D2, C3P0, Leia, Ackbarr et al. being wiped out in seconds was obviously inconceivable. The final climatic beat easily could have been an emergency evacuation of the rebel base where every character is in danger of not making it out in one piece, which would also keep the plot focused around the hunt for the map. They could have cut out Maz, the castle and the death star 3, and have the second-half of the film being an extended bombardment of the rebel base with all the same interactions going on. In the process they could reveal that the First Order is far more dangerous than they thought, by having Leia desperately calling for the New Republic fleet to find the connections severed or the planet destroyed / in the process of being blindsided by an internal surprise attack which in a few seconds could have been scarier/ more emotional than the starkiller sequence.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:54
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quote:He and Dooku are evenly matched in the spiritual realm. That's the whole point of starting off by showing them using their Force powers against each other, and then having Dooku say, out loud, "It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber." They're at a psychic stalemate, and so they have to resort to physical force. It's exactly the same rationale Lucas used to allow Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi duel in Episode IV. Like I said, I didn't remember how that went, so ignore that part then it is wrong! quote:The idea that Yoda isn't supposed to fight with a lightsaber is a complete fan invention that explicitly contradicts what is actually established in the original films. The fact that so many Star Wars fans got so pissed off when Episode II showed Yoda, a Jedi, fighting with a lightsaber, the weapon of a Jedi, is one of the few things that tempts me to full-throatedly agree with SMG's assertions that Star Wars fans don't actually like Star Wars. I don't really have a problem with Yoda fighting. It's how he does it that's ridiculous, much like tentacle man fighting with a thing more likely to harm himself than anyone else if his head moves ever. At the same time though I can't think of a way for him to do it that isn't also retarded. Maybe have him be really big and swole in the prequels, then Size Matters Not since Dooku holds his own equally with the Force.  And I already admitted that I am not really a fan, so your mind tricks won't work on me. quote:And this is how Yoda is depicted in the prequels. Except this part: "Kasdan: You mean he wouldn’t be any good in a fight? Lucas: Not with Darth Vader he wouldn’t." That fight suggests the opposite, he can take on opponents of a similar caliber. And the part about not being a real Jedi I guess.
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Jan 26, 2016 18:54
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crowoutofcontext posted:There was also for me a sense of "reverse plot armor" or maybe I should call it "legacy armor". The whole idea that R2D2, C3P0, Leia, Ackbarr et al. being wiped out in seconds was obviously inconceivable. Totally agreed that this would've been good. That, or if they hadn't killed Han yet then there might've been a bit more tension--but as it stood we knew that there was no way JJ would be allowed to kill Han and Leia and Threepio etc etc On a separate note, I don't know how many posters in this thread would even be able to answer this, but I wonder if people who saw ANH in theaters in '77 assumed that the Empire was defeated along with the Death Star. I would n't think so, right? Because there's that whole sequence in the boardroom where Tarkin goes on about regional governors and such. We certainly got the impression there was more to the Empire and that the DS was just a base. With TFA it really seemed like the First Order had all of their eggs in the Starkiller basket. The movie was on such a small scale that this conflict seemed like two militias fighting as opposed to a militia (resistance) vs. a fully formed military machine. I wonder why JJ forewent giving us a bigger display of what the First Order is really made up of
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Jan 26, 2016 19:02
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MonsieurChoc posted:I do wish more had been made of Dooku's relationship with the other characters. There's a clear lineage here, from Yoda to Dooku to Qui-Gon to Ob-Wan to Anakin, and I feel like more could have been done with it. I think there's enough of that in there. Dooku is just a sort of 'bad' Quigon. Quigon was a fundamentalist so dedicated to the Jedi faith that he came into conflict with the church, and Dooku is pretty much the same deal. Dooku is so much of a Jedi fundamentalist that he rejects the Republic and leaves the Order altogether. Democracy has failed, so his goal is to bring back feudalism like in the good ol' days. This, naturally, leads him to an alliance with the libertarians of the Trade Federation. "Of course, under feudalism proper in Europe, personal loyalty between liege and vassal was seen as a moral duty arising out of contract. Loyalty was an important political motivation, and a complicated system of loyalty-norms cemented personal allegiances. Loyalty motives and norms are of course absent from libertarianism; it relies on self-interest and the obligation to keep one's contracts as sufficient incentives to keep one's political obligations (to provide protection services, for example). But in all other respects mentioned, libertarianism resembles feudalism. This resemblance stems from both doctrines' conception of political power as a system of personal political dependence grounded in a network of private contractual relations. Like the provision of any other individual service, contracting for protection and arbitration services is simply the way people defend themselves and secure their interests from others' aggression." -Samuel Freeman, "Illiberal Libertarians: Why Libertarianism Is Not a Liberal View" As i noted earlier, Leia's Resistance in Force Awakens has the exact same goals as Dooku. He's a genuine 'good guy', by the standards of Star Wars fans. The Resistance are the Seperatists. At the start of Episode 3, after all, Dooku is attempting to recruit Anakin into a plot to kill Sheev (just as he tried recruiting Obiwan in Episode 2). This fails miserably because Anakin is so rabidly anti-separatist, but that was the plan. So anyways, the battle of Yoda against Dooku is effectively Yoda fighting the evil ghost of Quigon Jinn. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 19:02
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Waffles Inc. posted:Totally agreed that this would've been good. That, or if they hadn't killed Han yet then there might've been a bit more tension--but as it stood we knew that there was no way JJ would be allowed to kill Han and Leia and Threepio etc etc I remember seeing the original Mad Magazine parody of Star Wars from 1977 in some anthology somewhere and they chose to depict the Death Star battle as Luke going down a trench full of sings that said "THIS WAY TO DEFEAT EVIL EMPIRE ---->" or whatever, so that's at least one Mad magazine writer who was left with that impression.
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Jan 26, 2016 19:10
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Cnut, I don't have a problem with the IDEA of Yoda swordfighting, it's just that it looked kind of dumb. But as I've said in the old threads, there is another scene from ROTS that I thought was great, right after Order 66 is given and Yoda senses two troopers behind them about to shoot him in the back. Here he jumps up over them, landing behind them and decapitating them on the way down. That worked really well, for me. And the fight against Palpatine in the Senate Chamber didn't look as ridiculous to me as the Dooku one. I just brought it up again because SMG mentioned what I said in the old thread about being horrified at how cartoonish (and maybe intentionally funny) the Dooku fight was. I don't see why they would have intentionally made this funny, others do.
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Jan 26, 2016 19:14
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MrMojok posted:Cnut, I don't have a problem with the IDEA of Yoda swordfighting, it's just that it looked kind of dumb. But as I've said in the old threads, there is another scene from ROTS that I thought was great, right after Order 66 is given and Yoda senses two troopers behind them about to shoot him in the back. Does it help to think of lightsaber duels as being different from mass combats? Like, something based on martial arts forms and techniques. Aside from the emotional ends of Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi, the lightsaber fights have had a formal quality to them. Does capoeira look ridiculous to you, with all the flipping around and stuff?
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Jan 26, 2016 19:20
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Yoda storming the Jedi Temple/Senate or whatever and fighting some clone troopers was also pretty well realized. I think Yoda vs Dooku (and really any Dooku fight honestly) was at the mercy of Lee being so drat old. For some reason I don't think any of the NT are going to cast ppl incapable of stage fighting in their movies.
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Jan 26, 2016 19:20
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MrMojok posted:And the fight against Palpatine in the Senate Chamber didn't look as ridiculous to me as the Dooku one. That's because the fight scene in Episode 3 (though it features Sheev hamming it up) isn't a comedy scene. It's a scene of a little puppy getting kicked around by a cackling, Joker-like character. You need to look at the context. The entire ending of Episode 2 is about getting high on power and violence. Anakin and Padme are getting all hot & bothered slaughtering brown aliens. Anakin says "they're retreating! Shoot them in the back!", and Obiwan's like "great job, Anakin!" Everyone just gets caught up in this wave of evil, and that all of that builds up to Yoda pulling out his sword. I've said this before, but Yoda is effectively the protagonist of Episode 2, as the entire film is about his corruption. He's the one dude who should have known better. The film literally ends with Yoda saying "I see everything clearly now: we need to start a war against Count Dooku!" It's comedy.
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Jan 26, 2016 19:38
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homullus posted:Does capoeira look ridiculous to you, with all the flipping around and stuff? I didn't know what this was, so I watched some YouTube videos and no, it doesn't look ridiculous to me. It's amazing
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Jan 26, 2016 19:50
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Some interesting rumors regarding what a certain villain will be up to in Rogue One. e: And even more details about troopers, practical effects, and characters. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 20:12
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Changin tracks here again, the more I think about it and the more I'm pissed at R2's lovely treatment in TFA. He was a major character through all previous 6 movies and his previous characterization really isn't that of a droid that would shut himself down for decades. When Anakin went dark, he didn't stop, he became a part of the Rebellion from the start. It's a super lazy way to replace him with the new toy to sell to kids. Hell, BB8 is just a lamer R2. In ANH, when Luke says that he's never seen such loyalty to his Master in a droid, it's ironic because R2 isn't being loyal to his Master, he's dedicated to his mission instead. BB instead is shown to really be insecure and just wanting to follow a Master. It's kind of disgusting.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:12
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MonsieurChoc posted:Changin tracks here again, the more I think about it and the more I'm pissed at R2's lovely treatment in TFA. He was a major character through all previous 6 movies and his previous characterization really isn't that of a droid that would shut himself down for decades. When Anakin went dark, he didn't stop, he became a part of the Rebellion from the start. It's a super lazy way to replace him with the new toy to sell to kids. But, he's sooooo cute!
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Jan 26, 2016 20:29
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R2 is kind of a prick though. So I'm cool with a nicer, but twitcher robot taking his place.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:33
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For me the most powerful scenes of TFA that nobody discusses : 3) A distraught but " has-put-his-poo poo-togethor" Chewie descends from the cold, blizzardy heavens to save Finn and Rey 2)Rey has no game plan for her escape so she hangs down a pit covered with glistening buttons and unopened passageways, presses a few buttons, and crams herself into some bridge port or something. 1) in the final deathstar 3 climax C-3P0 is freaking out and annoyingly narrating the gravity of events. But the audience and everyone else seems to know that the sun-destroyer is no threat but a tired repetition; C-3PO is being hyperbolic and forgetful again and putting on a show for the audience.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:35
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Cnut the Great posted:
This is actually one of many things from Dune that inspired Star Wars, the fate of a million worlds and the destiny of mankind coming down to a knife fight.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:37
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crowoutofcontext posted:For me the most powerful scenes of TFA that nobody discusses : I can't wait for a Blu-Ray release to be able to see stills of these scenes. Especially #2 because I wonder if that sequence has a mirror in her rummaging around in the SD at the beginning, or if it's just other imagery of Rey being stuck into and digging around Imperial technology
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Jan 26, 2016 20:40
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MonsieurChoc posted:Changin tracks here again, the more I think about it and the more I'm pissed at R2's lovely treatment in TFA. He was a major character through all previous 6 movies and his previous characterization really isn't that of a droid that would shut himself down for decades. When Anakin went dark, he didn't stop, he became a part of the Rebellion from the start. It's a super lazy way to replace him with the new toy to sell to kids. It's a consequence of some of the many obvious compromises. We know that the film originally began with Poe just brutally dying in the Tie Fighter crash. And, of course, Poe is effectively a version of Luke Skywalker - a version of Luke if Luke had remained a pilot, instead of leaving to become a Jedi. In other words, the film was to open with the metaphorical death of Luke Skywalker. The film was originally about learning to live without Skywalker's guidance. Of course the attack on the Deathstar 3 would play out entirely differently in this version. It would be told pretty much entirely from the perspective of the people on the ground - people with no real affiliation to the Resistance - while BB8 flies around up there on his own, of his own initiative. During production, TFA subtly morphed from a movie about learning to think for yourself to a movie about learning to obey the right people.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:41
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crowoutofcontext posted:For me the most powerful scenes of TFA that nobody discusses : Oh man that was heartbreaking. Seeing Chewie piloting the Falcon and trying to save them despite pretty much just being in "gently caress it mode" after blasting a few troopers/Kylo Ren and non-nonchalantly triggering the detonator was really great.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:44
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Waffles Inc. posted:I can't wait for a Blu-Ray release to be able to see stills of these scenes. I'm reasonably sure that the part she pulls out of the wall on Starkiller Base to disable the doors is the same part she took from the Star Destroyer and sold to Unkar back on Jakku.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:46
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MonsieurChoc posted:Changin tracks here again, the more I think about it and the more I'm pissed at R2's lovely treatment in TFA. He was a major character through all previous 6 movies and his previous characterization really isn't that of a droid that would shut himself down for decades. When Anakin went dark, he didn't stop, he became a part of the Rebellion from the start. It's a super lazy way to replace him with the new toy to sell to kids. He was sad when Poe "died" but he continued his mission  How is this not a droid exerting free will? Because he needed help to get off the planet?
Friendly Factory fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 20:46
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re 2: yeah Rey definitely killed herself when she crawled into a random machine that then closed and crushed her like a cat in a foldout chair base The thing that replaces her later is a fake Rey sent by Snoke to infiltrate the Resistance Alternately the First Order's tech isn't far removed from the Empire's that she's scampered around all her life and she knew exactly what she was doing.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:46
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Friendly Factory posted:He was sad when Poe "died" but he continued his mission It's not that he needed help, it's that he spends the entire movie chasing after other people so they can tell him what to do. He follows Rey like a puppy more than once. R2 would have cut the net to escape and when pointed in the direction of the town would have wheeled straight to it to try and jack a ship for himself. We know this, because he has done similar things in the past. BB-8's actions in the film are: - Serve as a container for the Map - Points out Finn to Rey - Reveals the location of the Resistance Base to Rey and Finn And that's it. Of those, only the second one is significant, since a box could have done the first and the third ends up being useless since they follow Han Solo and the Resistance meets them before they reach the base. Jar-Jar was more important to the plot, had a bigger character arc and was ultimately a better character than BB-8.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:57
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feedmyleg posted:Some interesting rumors regarding what a certain villain will be up to in Rogue One. If they get Hayden Christensen to play that part in Rogue One that movie will finally have my attention.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:58
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Parachute posted:Oh man that was heartbreaking. Seeing Chewie piloting the Falcon and trying to save them despite pretty much just being in "gently caress it mode" after blasting a few troopers/Kylo Ren and non-nonchalantly triggering the detonator was really great. It's pretty great how much characterization for Chewie they manage to cram into a few seconds of each scene. That and completing Han's arc are probably why I don't feel like they exploited the old SW characters for appeal.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:59
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Terry Grunthouse posted:If they get Hayden Christensen to play that part in Rogue One that movie will finally have my attention. There is no reason whatsoever for him to play that part. Would you even be able to tell?
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Jan 26, 2016 21:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Very True. That is why in some of the original concepts Rey was "held down" by an aging pilot and her trajectory was an escape away from the Republic and fatherly figures, not a desperate flight toward the Republic and toward Daddy figures. quote:Rey is extremely reluctant to leave Jakku in the movie, but in the earlier versions of the story Kira was eager to leave the junk planet. Concept art shows Kira longingly watching spaceships departing from the planet.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:08
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Steve2911 posted:There is no reason whatsoever for him to play that part. Would you even be able to tell? He could fight somebody with his helmet off.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:We know that the film originally began with Poe just brutally dying in the Tie Fighter crash. And, of course, Poe is effectively a version of Luke Skywalker - a version of Luke if Luke had remained a pilot, instead of leaving to become a Jedi. In other words, the film was to open with the metaphorical death of Luke Skywalker. The film was originally about learning to live without Skywalker's guidance. Is this true? Holy poo poo that sounds like it would've been incredibly good. I would've loved BB8 flying the X-Wing on his own. Also a metaphorical Luke death would have been very interesting crowoutofcontext posted:Very True. That is why in some of the original concepts Rey was "held down" by an aging pilot and her trajectory was an escape away from the Republic and fatherly figures, not a desperate flight toward the Republic and toward Daddy figures. Why on earth did they change that? That makes Rey one billion times more interesting. Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 21:14
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Steve2911 posted:There is no reason whatsoever for him to play that part. Would you even be able to tell? There's no reason whatsoever for him to not play that part. They got all the original people that were still around to reprise their roles in TFA (Ackbar, Nien Nunb, even Obi-wan), so if they don't do this it just would seem like some sort of petty hatred for the prequels thing, to me at least. They will obviously get JEJ to reprise the voice, if there are any speaking parts, so Hayden would make sense for the physical portion, as Prowse is somewhere in his 80s these days. Based on the movie Outcast, he seems more than in good enough shape to play a physically demanding role.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:21
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If he does reprise the role, hopefully they find a way to get around his tiny T-rex arms
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Jan 26, 2016 21:24
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Terry Grunthouse posted:There's no reason whatsoever for him to not play that part. They got all the original people that were still around to reprise their roles in TFA (Ackbar, Nien Nunb, even Obi-wan), so if they don't do this it just would seem like some sort of petty hatred for the prequels thing, to me at least. They will obviously get JEJ to reprise the voice, if there are any speaking parts, so Hayden would make sense for the physical portion, as Prowse is somewhere in his 80s these days. Based on the movie Outcast, he seems more than in good enough shape to play a physically demanding role. Hayden was way too short for the suit and had to wear lifts. He wouldn't be able to do more than a little.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:25
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Terry Grunthouse posted:There's no reason whatsoever for him to not play that part. True. I'm just saying it's not exactly worth getting excited over.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:26
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Waffles Inc. posted:Why on earth did they change that? That makes Rey one billion times more interesting. Wanting to leave a desert planet to be a pilot = one billion times more interesting?
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Jan 26, 2016 21:26
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drat, I like the Doom Star way better than Starkiller Base. Plus Adam Driver already looks like Fragmaster. A doom star???
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Jan 26, 2016 21:28
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There's nothing wrong with an orphan wanting familial attachments; love is not the enemy, SMG I will admit it would be more unique, but now we're delving into "what I wish the movie were" territory. I do wish they had kept the rebel superweapon both to show what a "heroic" superweapon would look like, and emphasize that the Starkiller fails because of its attachment to traditional Star Wars ways, which the new generation is aware of and prepared for.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:30
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Waffles Inc. posted:Why on earth did they change that? That makes Rey one billion times more interesting. I disagree, I think her reluctance is one of the big things that differentiates her from Luke in the OT. Having an older male figure holding her back would be too similar to the dynamic between Luke and Owen.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:30
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Beeez posted:I disagree, I think her reluctance is one of the big things that differentiates her from Luke in the OT. Having an older male figure holding her back would be too similar to the dynamic between Luke and Owen. Owen is only in like 15 minutes of Star Wars.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:32
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turtlecrunch posted:Wanting to leave a desert planet to be a pilot = one billion times more interesting? It would've given her some sort of driving force to do the things she does in the movie. Right now, the only reason she does things is that she's the good guy and thus is involved in the story. If she desires to get off the planet from the get go there's a reason to think she would want to be involved in all of the goings-on. A never-ending desire to return to Jakku that simply ceases at some point for reasons we're never shown is not a very interesting force to propel the protagonist's journey the way it's used in TFA. Anywho yeah I agree with Neuroliminal that it doesn't ultimately matter and "what if" speculation is pretty dumb Beeez posted:I disagree, I think her reluctance is one of the big things that differentiates her from Luke in the OT. Having an older male figure holding her back would be too similar to the dynamic between Luke and Owen. I totally hear you on this, but why would it be bad for her to resemble Luke too much?
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Jan 26, 2016 21:33
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Neurolimal posted:There's nothing wrong with an orphan wanting familial attachments; love is not the enemy, SMG A heroic superweapon is still a weapon designed to kill as many people as possible. Wars not make one great.
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Jan 26, 2016 21:37
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