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GunnerJ posted:This "Is Promontorium a sock puppet?" controversy is going to tear the thread apart. Well with Jrod not posting we have to find other things to be furious about until he resurfaces.
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Jan 26, 2016 02:11
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So I'm just gonna endorse the sock puppet theory seeing the reg date and all
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Jan 26, 2016 02:13
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GunnerJ posted:This "Is Promontorium a sock puppet?" controversy is going to tear the thread apart. We'll hash this out in the next podcast.
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Jan 26, 2016 02:15
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I wonder how many libertarians have federal tax liability.
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Jan 26, 2016 02:24
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Nah, it can't be jrod. He's posted in threads that weren't specifically about him/libertarians. One of the posts was even a joke.
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Jan 26, 2016 02:50
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I prefer jrod, he at least debates and discusses stuff and it's kind of entertaining even if I have to get my entertainment from the lengths he'll go to defend business-friendly slaver dictatorships or the fuckin Confederacy in the name of freedom. This guy just bitched about how everyone's too scared to debate libertarianism and how we just cover that up with insults, and then when asked to debate libertarianism "no that sounds hard, I just want to bitch about what poopyheads you all are"
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Jan 26, 2016 02:57
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I wonder if Jrod reads a board where he's hanging out and discussing about poo poo and someone from over there touched the poop here.
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Jan 26, 2016 03:06
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VitalSigns posted:I prefer jrod, he at least debates and discusses stuff and it's kind of entertaining even if I have to get my entertainment from the lengths he'll go to defend business-friendly slaver dictatorships or the fuckin Confederacy in the name of freedom. Pretty much. When I asked him to tell us what he believes and why and basically said "Nah, I'm good" is when I lost any and all good will for him.
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Jan 26, 2016 03:06
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Grognan posted:I wonder if Jrod reads a board where he's hanging out and discussing about poo poo and someone from over there touched the poop here. To me this is more likely than sock puppets.
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Jan 26, 2016 03:07
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I can't fathom Jrode hanging out talking to people
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Jan 26, 2016 03:14
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RuanGacho posted:Humorous in the same way that I find it likely Jrod doesn't have a federal tax liability and yet is so deeply concerned about it. I don't remember exactly where or when, but one of your posts pointed out how often times government is such a large bureaucracy because people demand accountability and checks and balances to the point where they are limited to one supplier with exacting specifications and everything has to be filled out in quintuplicate, or whatever, to attain that accountability and then people bitch that it's slow and wasteful even though they now have all of that accountability that they asked for. That was a new take on it to me. Also that Taoist thing is a pretty cool take on it, but also kind of there already in a lot of ways. I think it's stuff like that which gives rise to questions like "In a stateless society, who builds and maintains the roads?" I mean it sounds like an awesome goal, I'm just not sure how you'd accomplish it without people then becoming unaware of what the government in general is doing for them and then going "Down with the state because it's just sucking up my money and not giving me anything."
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Jan 26, 2016 04:11
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GunnerJ posted:This "Is Promontorium a sock puppet?" controversy is going to tear the thread apart. If only there was a private organization to resolve this dispute! *eyes battleaxe meaningfully*
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Jan 26, 2016 04:15
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Buried alive posted:Also that Taoist thing is a pretty cool take on it, but also kind of there already in a lot of ways. I think it's stuff like that which gives rise to questions like "In a stateless society, who builds and maintains the roads?" I mean it sounds like an awesome goal, I'm just not sure how you'd accomplish it without people then becoming unaware of what the government in general is doing for them and then going "Down with the state because it's just sucking up my money and not giving me anything."    
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Jan 26, 2016 04:22
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Buried alive posted:I don't remember exactly where or when, but one of your posts pointed out how often times government is such a large bureaucracy because people demand accountability and checks and balances to the point where they are limited to one supplier with exacting specifications and everything has to be filled out in quintuplicate, or whatever, to attain that accountability and then people bitch that it's slow and wasteful even though they now have all of that accountability that they asked for. That was a new take on it to me. To give context and explain a little bit, I'm specifically referring to the 17th verse of the Tao Te Ching: as translated by Stephen Mitchell posted:17 What caused me to think of this specifically is that if one is familiar with The Culture many people look at it and say something to the effect of "holy poo poo it's a libertarian's wet dream! No one asks you to do anything!". This coupled with my aforementioned libertarian friend's statement that "people just want to be left alone" that is to say it's largely true that most people aren't particularly concerned with governing and would rather be left to live their lives of managing their families, jobs and social lives, led me to think intently about how the lack of attendance in most governance isn't an indictment of democracy so much as a blessing of people being generally content with the services they have if they're continuing to join the community. No one in The Culture is particularly concerned about how things are run because they run so well, and this would probably largely true in a real life scenario too. Ideological battles are largely fought on a national stage because that's where people who have a bone to pick with society can affect the most change on a populace largely disengaged. It follows money. This is the most compelling argument to me that money should be more evenly distributed in a progressive way up through government due to the excess larger budgets draw. e: For example, local governments should be most concerned with roads and infrastructure like telecommunications, parks programs, etc. Politics is a sport because it's a game of the affluent in the first place. When I consider how much human potential is wasted because of lack of economic opportunity, which in general terms the math says there is plenty for all I drop into the mindset of the hammer who sees a nail that needs some force applied. Everything is a process problem! There is 1/4th our food wasted, but people starve. There is less population density than many developed nations and people go homeless. People die of curable disease and only for lack of ability to pay. But I preach to the choir. Ultimately, the way we incrementally advance our society is by creating our collective will for the greater good through government, and I would never begrudge people for trying to expand their mind, I learn more by letting my libertarian friend and places like this challenge my ideas, which is why Jrod and his ilk are so repugnant because they're out for quite the opposite. It is good for people to talk, and reason and think, but there is a reason why after years of working in the private sector I got into the government: quote:The master doesn't talk, he acts. I will find our Utopia. RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 08:00
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Just a small add to the misbegotten concept of Libertopia. If a person truly wanted to find a society where personal and individual effort and power determines anything and everything, everything is for sale, and the government does not intervene at all in most things, then one would find the closest analogue in Mogadishu or truly any other failed state/region/city. And I think that is a pretty damning indictment of Libertarian politics.
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Jan 26, 2016 19:38
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BaurusJA posted:Just a small add to the misbegotten concept of Libertopia. If a person truly wanted to find a society where personal and individual effort and power determines anything and everything, everything is for sale, and the government does not intervene at all in most things, then one would find the closest analogue in Mogadishu or truly any other failed state/region/city. *insert racist Libertarian argument about how Somalia and Afghanistan don't REALLY count, because reasons*
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Jan 26, 2016 19:47
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...or that they totally count and are actually rad as gently caress!
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Jan 26, 2016 19:52
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GunnerJ posted:...or that they totally count and are actually rad as gently caress! A disturbingly common argument sums up to "I am an ubermensch and would take control of the country."
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Jan 26, 2016 19:55
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GunnerJ posted:...or that they totally count and are actually rad as gently caress! Don't be absurd. Not even mises.org woul-- Stateless in Somalia and Loving It posted:Somalia is in the news again. Rival gangs are shooting each other, and why? The reason is always the same: the prospect that the weak-to-invisible transitional government in Mogadishu will become a real government with actual power. Anarchy in Somalia posted:Earlier in the year, the BBC featured a series of articles commemorating the 20th anniversary of the fall of the state in Somalia. Although the articles expressed the typical revulsion at "anarchy," the series was surprisingly balanced for such a mainstream outlet. Somalia is undeniably experiencing progress according to several criteria, despite (or, some would say, because of) its lack of a strong central government.
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Jan 26, 2016 20:00
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Haha, so Somalia is great, just don't make me live there!!! 
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Jan 26, 2016 20:40
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Nolanar posted:Don't be absurd. Not even mises.org woul-- It's the perfect unprovable assertion. Point to stateless poo poo-holes and the explanation is "well that place will always be lovely, but they're better off than they would have been with a state." Point to successful state programs and the explanation becomes "and think of how much better off those people would be without the state!" As we've seen over and over, libertarianism is a fantasy-driven ideology. Who needs reason when you have navel-gazing?
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Jan 26, 2016 21:05
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Nolanar posted:Don't be absurd. Not even mises.org woul-- "Hrm, yes. Violence there is because the government is just invisible. Yes, that's the ticket.  "
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Jan 26, 2016 21:41
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Your Dunkle Sans posted:*insert racist Libertarian argument about how Somalia and Afghanistan don't REALLY count, because reasons* Somalia hasn't counted for a while because most of it has been under a government's control for quite some time now. Which mysteriously resulted in things being a lot better and people being happier? Must just be a coincidence. 
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Jan 27, 2016 02:05
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I think you'll find the new government has been holding back their development and it would be much further along without it, humans act QED
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Jan 27, 2016 02:19
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The more I learn about libertarianism, the more I struggle to grasp how anyone could believe in it without being an outright sociopath.
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Jan 27, 2016 02:36
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Polybius91 posted:The more I learn about libertarianism, the more I struggle to grasp how anyone could believe in it without being an outright sociopath. Well I was a libertarian due to a combination of being both young and stupid and literally insane.
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Jan 27, 2016 02:37
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Polybius91 posted:The more I learn about libertarianism, the more I struggle to grasp how anyone could believe in it without being an outright sociopath. Well you can be young and inexperienced and horribly misinformed. There's a reason it's not a popular ideology outside of white men: affluent white men like to believe that everything that was handed to them they somehow deserved through hard work and smarts, and poor white men can be convinced that the reason they don't have all the money and success they're told they deserve is because blacks are stealing it from them through affirmative action and taxes. Most people outside those groups already have the life experience to know that just worldism is bullshit of course. And anyone who grows up and gets informed about the world will realize that some government is necessary to avoid humanitarian catastrophe. Eventually the only ones left are the sociopaths who just don't care or delight in human suffering or who want to setup sundown towns or buy child sex slaves; eg Molyneaux, Rothbard, Hoppe, Block
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Jan 27, 2016 03:09
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Polybius91 posted:The more I learn about libertarianism, the more I struggle to grasp how anyone could believe in it without being an outright sociopath. I grew up being spoon fed conservatism from my grandparents and almost fell into the libertarian trap because I thought they were "better conservatives". Like, "hey! They're for smaller/less government, but also for legal weed, gay marriages, and a bunch of other things I think 'true' conservatives should be for!" Sort of the cliche "this isn't your father's conservatism," a bit of youthful rebellion while still believing that socialism/liberalism was "godless commie thought." Two things kept me out, 1- I didn't buy the argument for total elimination of the government, 2- the whole "taxes are theft, men with guns, monopoly on violence" crap my libertarian friends spread in stupid memes like this: 
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Jan 27, 2016 03:52
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fishmech posted:Somalia hasn't counted for a while because most of it has been under a government's control for quite some time now. Which mysteriously resulted in things being a lot better and people being happier? Must just be a coincidence. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34645877 quote:Perhaps the most striking thing about this particular refugee crisis is that many of those fleeing Yemen originally went there to get away from problems in their homeland. Before it descended into violence, Yemen was a host country to 250,000 Somalis. They had originally fled the civil war in Somalia in the 1990s and had crossed the sea in search of safety and work.
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Jan 27, 2016 04:04
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fade5 posted:Somalia has improved so much that's it's now a viable destination for the people fleeing the civil war in Yemen: So it looks like, government, to some degree, solved what guns alone couldn't in somalia. Imagine that.
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Jan 27, 2016 04:11
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Whoa ho ho liberals. You want a well-equipped professional firefighting force to keep poor neighborhoods from going up in flames? How about you put the guns down and show some real compassion, get a bucket and go put out those fires yourself if you're so noble. Oh the city burned down again, well at least nobody had to pay any fire taxes.
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Jan 27, 2016 04:22
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The analytic focus on the joy experienced by charitable donors is hosed up and creepy.
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Jan 27, 2016 04:25
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VitalSigns posted:Whoa ho ho liberals. You want a well-equipped professional firefighting force to keep poor neighborhoods from going up in flames? Now watch me force all these homeless people off my property, with my guns.
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Jan 27, 2016 04:33
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VitalSigns posted:Whoa ho ho liberals. You want a well-equipped professional firefighting force to keep poor neighborhoods from going up in flames? I think that's the thing that grates on me the most, the whole obsession with calling anything the government does "using guns to do 'x'" or "MEN WITH GUNS STEALING OUR MONEY". I think the worst was the meme where it was "If their candidate wins, MEN WITH GUNS will force you to do what they want. If your candidate wins, MEN WITH GUNS will force them to do what you want." I think part of it is like Ruan Guacho is saying - you will never "experience" a good government, because a good, well functioning government is almost invisible. If you ever "experience" government, it will almost always be in the negative light - a cop pulling you over for speeding, spending two hours at a jam packed DMV, traffic jams caused by road construction, owing taxes and for that matter having to file taxes, snow plows that take a week to get to your street and then just pile the snow in front of your driveway, buses running late, toll booths, and finally schools teaching your kids innocuous subjects you don't like. The problem is libertarians (and conservatives, too) are too drat short sighted to see the bigger picture. Using Flint, MI, as an example: A good government would have continued to siphon water from Detroit until their own water production facilities were up and running, and put funds into replacing the old lead pipes. A liberal government would fund this through higher property or income taxes - something which only the richest of it's residents would only really notice. We've seen what a conservative government would do - try to save every penny for the sake of saving money. A libertarian "government" would just shut everything down and hope that a private business would come in to supply the city's water needs, with no regulations on purity or price controls.
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Jan 27, 2016 04:40
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GunnerJ posted:The analytic focus on the joy experienced by charitable donors is hosed up and creepy. A pile of avoidable suffering and death is worth it to get the satisfaction of generously giving some luxury money. It's not important that millions of Africans' lives are saved with HIV medication, what's important is that rich whites didn't get to feel good about it.
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Jan 27, 2016 04:43
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YF19pilot posted:Two things kept me out, 1- I didn't buy the argument for total elimination of the government, 2- the whole "taxes are theft, men with guns, monopoly on violence" crap my libertarian friends spread in stupid memes like this: It's interesting that such an avowed atheist such as Penn Jillette would care so much about an abstract like "moral credit." There's a strain of social conservative thought that says the government helping poor people is wrong because that should be the role of churches and people's individual moral choices. That the government feeding and sheltering people somehow "cheats" a Christian philanthropist out of the chance to do good works. Here's a quote from Paul Ryan's 2014 CPAC speech. Zombie-eyed granny starver posted:"What the left is offering people is a full stomach and an empty soul...People don't just want a life of comfort. They want a life of dignity..." What's amazing about this quote is not just its arrogance and strange equation of being fed with being spiritually empty, but that it's such a perfect inversion of a much more famous quote that I almost can't believe it wasn't intentional. Rabbi Israel Salanter posted:Most men worry about their own bellies, and other people's souls, when we all ought to be worried about our own souls, and other people's bellies. So I understand the objection to government "charity" offered by Christian conservatives. I think it's a bad reason, but I understand it. But what's Penn Jillette's problem? I agree with him that people need to be fed, sheltered, clothed, etc. So since we're both atheists and big fans of logical positivism, we should both support government benefit programs since those have been shown, definitively, to help the most people. Who gives a gently caress about "moral credit?" We can't have food stamps because some jackass might think they're a good person because they pay taxes? Get outta here!
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Jan 27, 2016 04:49
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Suddenly I am mad
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Jan 27, 2016 16:15
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Most of those have to be fake. They have to be.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:28
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GunnerJ posted:Most of those have to be fake. Unlikely. Never underestimate the ability of Americans to be profoundly and colossally stupid.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:29
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Polybius91 posted:The more I learn about libertarianism, the more I struggle to grasp how anyone could believe in it without being an outright sociopath. Being a smug, contrarian literal child? Lots of folks on reddit fit that mold
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