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Raxivace posted:When in the movie is this established? It's in the book I got for Christmas. The visual dictionary.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:25
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If someone makes a statue, then somebody adds joints and molds it in plastic for sale, does it cease to be art? Does the existence of mass produced replica of famous works cause the originals to become merchandise? When a patron commisioned Da Vinci, was he creating merchandise for The Bible?
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Jan 27, 2016 19:26
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RBA Starblade posted:By all means, define it then. Define "fan"? It's been defined in the past. In short: it refers to the phenomenon of generating excitement through anticipation, and then being ambivalent or hating the actual film/property that comes out. You see it a lot in video games, i.e. "Assassin's Creed X was terrible, I regret preordering it! But Assassin's Creed X-2 looks amazing, definitely preordering it and I hope they fix the flaws of AC X". With regards to film franchises (and others), there's also a component of merchandising. You buy all the toys in anticipation of the movie, regardless of how good or bad the film is. You might have criticisms with TFA (for example) but you'll still buy all the toys for the upcoming movie anyway. That's what being a fan means.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:27
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euphronius posted:Max Von Sydows village. At what point is it described as "force-worshipping"? Other than Tekka, we don't get any lines from anybody, and he doesn't seem to be worshipping anything...
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Jan 27, 2016 19:27
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:Nah, it's actually an interesting discussion about the intersection of ideology and personal identity. This is extra cool because ideology and how it functions socially is one of the most important themes of Star Wars. It just seems petty as all hell to me. "I'm a much bigger fan than you! I've seen Return of the King 45 times!" "Oh yeah? I've seen it 46....the extended version, I mean."
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Jan 27, 2016 19:28
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computer parts posted:Define "fan"? It's been defined in the past. A fan is a fanatical person who overly admires something. They can admire one aspect or all of it. But they're still fanatical about it.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:29
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Re: this entire conversation: Who the gently caress gives a loving poo poo
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Jan 27, 2016 19:30
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euphronius posted:It's in the book I got for Christmas. The visual dictionary. If it's not actually mentioned in the movie in some fashion then the visual dictionary's explanation is basically (Licensed) fanfiction.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:30
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homullus posted:I can tell you whatever I want. If you claim you like pie, but actually dislike all pie that is not "apple pie made by your own mom," you could say you like pie, and I could say you don't. And we'd both be right...from a certain point of view. yeah, it all comes down to identity politics, basically for instance, I would call myself a baseball fan but I find the DH to be a loving pox on the entire sport and, dare i say, the world. some would say that i dislike a fundamental aspect of the game itself and therefore don't like baseball, i just like the national league...and i would say the exact same thing about the american league it's likely that the OT-only lovers see many prequel likers as the cancer on "true" star wars whereas I find it silly that people who only like the original call themselves fans. but i know why they do so, which is because the star wars they cherish from their childhoods has been put in a bubble and "star wars" as a concept or a fandom couldn't possibly include the prequels because the prequels are bad in their eyes it's honestly a pretty fascinating thing to see Neowyrm posted:Re: this entire conversation: i, too, agree that discussions are bad what star war subject would you like to talk about newowyrn? CelticPredator posted:It just seems petty as all hell to me. "I'm a much bigger fan than you! I've seen Return of the King 45 times!" "Oh yeah? I've seen it 46....the extended version, I mean." there's no dick-waving or quality judgement in "star wars fans don't like star wars", no one is assessing that prequel fans are somehow "greater" fans, it's simply pointing out that people who say they like star wars actually don't in fact like a large portion of star wars Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jan 27, 2016 |
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Jan 27, 2016 19:30
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computer parts posted:Define "fan"? It's been defined in the past. So what do you call someone who liked Assassin's Creed U, V, and W, and enjoyed Y?
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Jan 27, 2016 19:31
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I'm just curious about where a sculpture ceases to become art in the designing -> sculpting -> joint cutting -> painting -> mold making > package designing -> package artwork designing -> sale process.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:31
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jivjov posted:At what point is it described as "force-worshipping"? Other than Tekka, we don't get any lines from anybody, and he doesn't seem to be worshipping anything... As i said its in the visual dictionary as well as the novelisation. It's the Church of the Force.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:31
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Neurolimal posted:because nobody wants to read Traviss schlock.) I'm glad we can all agree on this one thing, at least.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:32
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The word "fan" comes from "fanatic". The point SMG is trying to make (I guess, not being SMG) is that fans have put their vision of Star Wars above the movies (and side-material) in their heart. Instead of discussing themes and visuals and other interesting things, they discuss merely the plot, and in the most superficial terms. When things do not fit within their narrow framework, instead of just not caring for it, they react with righteous anger. The reaction to the prequels, for instance, isn't just "Didn't like these movies as much as the previous ones", it's "LUCAS RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!" despite the fact that the movies did not such thing. And so the prequels find themselves constantly attacked on the internet, any qualities they might have dismissed, and not due them meriting any of this anger, but simply because they don't fit. It is ideology instead of simple appreciation of art.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:33
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Waffles Inc. posted:i, too, agree that discussions are bad Can we talk about ANYTHING AT ALL other than "How much of Star Wars [must you like]/[you are allowed to dislike] before you [do]/[don't] actually like Star Wars.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:34
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CelticPredator posted:It just seems petty as all hell to me. "I'm a much bigger fan than you! I've seen Return of the King 45 times!" "Oh yeah? I've seen it 46....the extended version, I mean." That isn't even close to accurately characterizing the discussion about Star Wars fandom that's been going on for more than a year in this thread. Hell, that doesn't even sum up what's going on in the last 2 pages! Neowyrm posted:Re: this entire conversation: Me 
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Jan 27, 2016 19:35
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euphronius posted:As i said its in the visual dictionary as well as the novelisation. Hm. Well..that didn't really get communicated in the film at all. Deleted scenes? Or pre-production stuff that didn't ever get filmed?
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Jan 27, 2016 19:35
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MonsieurChoc posted:. The reaction to the prequels, for instance, isn't just "Didn't like these movies as much as the previous ones", it's "LUCAS RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!" At this point I'm pretty sure the ratio of sincere repetition to derisive repetition of this statement is 1:25.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:36
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jivjov posted:Hm. Well..that didn't really get communicated in the film at all. Deleted scenes? Or pre-production stuff that didn't ever get filmed? It's kind of in the film through inference. Why does Max have the map to the last temple. Why is he helping the resistance. Why is he in a low tech village of multicultural monkish people. He's obviously religious in some way and he isn't a sith. So... I mean that's one reason Sydow was faster imho so that people would instantly think "priest".
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Jan 27, 2016 19:37
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Not everyone is trained in being analytical. Like, okay, talking about plot holes is boring. But that's not to say talking about the story, as it is, has no merit. Maybe you don't like it. Just like I think this conversation about fan poo poo to be completely stupid....but other people, quite enjoy it. So who am I to judge, yanno?
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Jan 27, 2016 19:38
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jivjov posted:Hm. Well..that didn't really get communicated in the film at all. Deleted scenes? Or pre-production stuff that didn't ever get filmed? I think the fact that he cares about "bringing balance to the Force" is supposed to hint at it, because literally no one but the Jedi care about that in the other movies.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:38
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MonsieurChoc posted:The word "fan" comes from "fanatic". The point SMG is trying to make (I guess, not being SMG) is that fans have put their vision of Star Wars above the movies (and side-material) in their heart. Instead of discussing themes and visuals and other interesting things, they discuss merely the plot, and in the most superficial terms. When things do not fit within their narrow framework, instead of just not caring for it, they react with righteous anger. The reaction to the prequels, for instance, isn't just "Didn't like these movies as much as the previous ones", it's "LUCAS RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!" despite the fact that the movies did not such thing. And so the prequels find themselves constantly attacked on the internet, any qualities they might have dismissed, and not due them meriting any of this anger, but simply because they don't fit. Yeah, this is a better way to sum it up. It's just that in several cases, the way that vision is expressed is by buying the merchandising. They have to prove they're the best Star Wars fan, even if they don't actually like the movie all that much.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:40
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Filthy Casual posted:If Vader is gonna be in Rogue One, I hope they give Ashoka (possibly last known Jedi with Obi/Yoda in hiding?) a central role in the movie. It would be awesome to hear JEJ saying "...Snips?" They are going to meet in Rebels. As Ashoka is fairly important character there. At the same time she is not really a Jedi by her own admission, saying that Kanan from the same scene qualifies more then her for being a Jedi and he was just a padawan during the clone wars who never finished his training. Vader is also at his most evil during the time around a new hope. Vader detected her during an attack and the only thing he had to say was "So the apprentice lives." then attempting to blow up her ship. (it a cool piece of info Rebels Vader is voiced by James Earl Jones.)
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Jan 27, 2016 19:40
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jivjov posted:Hm. Well..that didn't really get communicated in the film at all. Deleted scenes? Or pre-production stuff that didn't ever get filmed? I think Max von Sydow actually does a good job in his handful of lines (particularly talking to Kylo Ren) of establishing his own blend of dogmatic attachment to the force, and to the pseudo-feudal trappings of the Old Republic ("to me, she's royalty"). I definitely got "this guy is holy, but he isn't a Jedi." Ymmv
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Jan 27, 2016 19:41
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These are all interesting responses. Honestly all I got out of Sydow's character when I watched the movie was that he was an old good guy.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:42
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Fuligin posted:I think Max von Sydow actually does a good job in his handful of lines (particularly talking to Kylo Ren) of establishing his own blend of dogmatic attachment to the force, and to the pseudo-feudal trappings of the Old Republic ("to me, she's royalty"). I definitely got "this guy is holy, but he isn't a Jedi." Ymmv yeah he seemed priestly no doubt the beginning almost reminded me of the beginning of the first captain america where red skull busts into that temple thing and there's that dude who I don't think is explicitly a priest but who has the tesseract I couldn't place where it's originally from, but "stealing artifact from priestly figure" feels like a trope to me that TFA was playing on
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Jan 27, 2016 19:45
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What if Poe is Rey's dad. Think about it.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:53
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MonsterEnvy posted:Vader is also at his most evil during the time around a new hope. Vader detected her during an attack and the only thing he had to say was "So the apprentice lives." then attempting to blow up her ship. (it a cool piece of info Rebels Vader is voiced by James Earl Jones.) Yeah...that makes a lot more sense with the character. I'd still argue she earns the title of Jedi, went through a lot more poo poo than Luke did.
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Jan 27, 2016 19:55
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rear end Catchcum posted:What if Poe is Rey's dad. Think about it. Then he was a badass 12 year old, I tell you what. CelticPredator fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jan 27, 2016 |
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Jan 27, 2016 19:56
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Chickenfrogman posted:"Star Wars fans don't like Star Wars" is by far the dumbest and most obnoxious thing in this thread including Tezzor's posts. It usually is, because SMG takes the sentiment too far, especially since he holds some pretty heterodox views about the films himself. But I don't know what else to say when people are getting upset about the very idea that a Jedi Master might have been a warrior and used a lightsaber at one point. They're not upset about the execution of the scene where Yoda used a lightsaber, which is a perfectly logical and defensible position to take. They are explicitly mad about the very idea that Yoda may have ever used a lightsaber at all. That is, almost objectively, an incredibly bizarre opinion for a so-called fan of Star Wars to hold, and serves to illustrate the extent to which this fanbase has been driven completely insane by a confluence of unique psychological and cultural forces which would probably take experienced researchers decades upon decades to analyze and document properly. That's actually why I enjoy interacting with the Star Wars fanbase so much, though. All you have to do is simply explain some of the most basic aspects of Star Wars to them, and suddenly you're blowing minds left and right and calling down the wrath of millions upon you for your heresy.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:33
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Cnut the Great posted:
Like the whole "Obi-Wan and Yoda are misguided" thing doesn't come from the PT, it's straight from ROTJ. You'd never think it though, going by fan reactions.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:35
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http://pannan-art.tumblr.com/post/136141413771/its-not-how-your-parents-raised-you
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Jan 27, 2016 21:17
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CelticPredator posted:Not everyone is trained in being analytical. Like, okay, talking about plot holes is boring. But that's not to say talking about the story, as it is, has no merit. Maybe you don't like it. Just like I think this conversation about fan poo poo to be completely stupid....but other people, quite enjoy it. So who am I to judge, yanno? Forget about the word "fan", it's superficial. Look at Tezzor and the way he talks about the PT. He's a complete loving idiot who tries every which way to prove that the PT films are bad. Now we could just look at Tezzor and be all pedantically-personal and specific, but instead of that let's generalize. This is where ideology and personal identity come into play. I've seen you posting around CD enough that you should know very well to not read SMGs poo poo like that at face value. He's making a generalization in relation to Star Wars about the two things I mentioned above, by using an inflammatory rhetorical device. Clearly, the inflammatory part is not the only part that bothers people, the fact that SMG is making an assertion contrary to people's ideologies. This is in fact readable at face value, I guess, but I don't think getting mad at it is the point. Oh look here comes intent again. Am I talking about SMG's intent? Am I reading the intent from an interpreted abstraction of the text? The Jedi believe that:
I don't think that's a perfect list of the Jedi ideology but I tried to cover the main ideas seen in the PT. When we watch the movies, however, we, the audience, the viewer, sees that the actions of the Jedi are sometimes contradictory to their ideology. But they never believe that their ideology has failed them somehow. The reason for the rise of Palpatine as Emperor, from the Jedi point of view, is due to Sith Lords exerting their power upon the galaxy. Or in other words: Evil came not from within, but without. Over the course of the whole saga, Yoda and Obi-wan consider and re-evaluate their ideologies. I just watched all the PT films, and I'm gonna go watch the OT soon. This is because I can't really give a trustworthy grasp of the things that Yoda and Obi-wan believe, i.e. how did their ideology change. Some simple things like: "War not make one great", "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." But there's a lot more to it. Not to mention the things that Luke does. Anyways it's all very interesting. I think the most interesting thing that I learned from talking about SW here is that they really don't ever say "the light side of the force". It's just the dark side.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:21
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We finally saw it this past weekend. It was uncanny how many themes, scenes and even set pieces were taken from the original trilogy. It felt a couple of times like the primary role of the film was to remake the first film with a new story and some new characters. And maybe that was the point because the first films worked. It felt like SW. But overall it was a good Star Wars and absolutely killed the stupid prequels. As I recall Han made 2 different comments about Chewie's bow which took me out both times and made me wonder if there was going to be a point to "I like this thing" or whatever it was but it was just throwaway SW cheese. No biggie but wondering if anyone else thought it a little weird.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:23
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Cnut the Great posted:They are explicitly mad about the very idea that Yoda may have ever used a lightsaber at all. Personally, I was hoping the prequel trilogy would have produced a greater variety of Jedi weapons to fit the diverse cast of aliens. It makes sense a bunch of 6 foot tall humans would use swords, but why would Fisto or that super thin neck guy? Is a longsword the only shape light weapons can take? It struck me as an opportunity lost to create some unique and interesting light weapons. I get why, thematically, it would make sense for humans to be using swords in their damned fool idealistic crusades...should that apply to everyone else in the Jedi order? I'd be down for some claws, staves, axes...probably not nunchucks. Hell, even if Yoda had to use a sword, would he even need to wield it directly? Homeboy coulda fought with it almost exclusively using telekinesis, which sounds thoroughly ballin'
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Jan 27, 2016 21:28
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I kinda like how uncreative the Jedi are with their weapons. I imagine the Jedi having their own sanctioned 'Jedi mugs' they drink tea from, and they don't have any other kind in the temple and people with beaks or small mouths are just hosed.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:30
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Yes, it was weird that in ~40 years running around the galaxy with the same dude, Han never once took a shot with the crossbow.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:30
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Filthy Casual posted:Personally, I was hoping the prequel trilogy would have produced a greater variety of Jedi weapons to fit the diverse cast of aliens. It makes sense a bunch of 6 foot tall humans would use swords, but why would Fisto or that super thin neck guy? Is a longsword the only shape light weapons can take? It struck me as an opportunity lost to create some unique and interesting light weapons. I get why, thematically, it would make sense for humans to be using swords in their damned fool idealistic crusades...should that apply to everyone else in the Jedi order? I'd be down for some claws, staves, axes...probably not nunchucks. I'm not sure if you're being ironic or not but, all Jedi can use the lightsaber because of their training in the force. E.g. kit fisto the tentacle head, uses the force to use the saber and thus does not chop off his extremities. I'm sure we can imagine an alien with like, no arms or no hands to speak of, or whatever, but that kind of brainstorming is, to my mind, extraneous to the film itself. [insert qualification here about how this does not imply that I think talking about it is stupid and anyone who does it here should be hated, this is just a statement of my personal view on the subject] edit: it's kind of similar to the droid class oppression. Aliens in SW are also in a lower social class than humans. Like, I mean, they're not seen as subhuman like droids are, but the whole of star wars society is clearly built to accommodate persons who are shaped and sized like a human being. In this way, they are discriminating against aliens in general. The lightsaber represents another kind of anthropocentrism, and thence a symbol of the failure of the Jedi ideology. SHISHKABOB fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 27, 2016 |
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Jan 27, 2016 21:34
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Filthy Casual posted:Personally, I was hoping the prequel trilogy would have produced a greater variety of Jedi weapons to fit the diverse cast of aliens. It makes sense a bunch of 6 foot tall humans would use swords, but why would Fisto or that super thin neck guy? Is a longsword the only shape light weapons can take? It struck me as an opportunity lost to create some unique and interesting light weapons. I get why, thematically, it would make sense for humans to be using swords in their damned fool idealistic crusades...should that apply to everyone else in the Jedi order? I'd be down for some claws, staves, axes...probably not nunchucks. I mean they have a central dogma, a single training location, a single set of clothing, why would it be odd for them to also enforce a single weapon form? I mean, do note that across 7 films the only the Sith have variation in their styles, and the only one who uses a completely bog-standard lightsaber is the one who redeems himself.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:37
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Sten Freak posted:But overall it was a good Star Wars and absolutely killed the stupid prequels. Here's a perfect example: instead of simply enjoying the new movie, it must "kill" the "stupid" prequels.
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Jan 27, 2016 21:37
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