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Kajeesus posted:I've always been puzzled by that narrative. What reason do anti-Semites have to oppose Zionism, assuming we're talking about white guys who also hate Muslims? Any time they meet a Zionist that isn't living in Israel, there appears the question of why they haven't made aliyah if they're such a devoted Zionist. The answer they usually arrive at is typically some kind of conspiracy-ish nonsense about traitorous Zionist fifth columns exploiting their own "home" countries to Israel's benefit. It's one thing to be a Jewish American, it's another to be a Jewish American citizen who regards themselves first and foremost as an Israeli rather than American, and that's often seen as a part of Zionism. A common anti-semitic excuse throughout history has been to accuse Jews of having dual loyalties that might result in them working against their birth country for the sake of foreign Jews. The rise of Zionism has only exacerbated that - especially considering that Zionist organizations often intentionally act to cast and encourage such suspicions, in order to stoke antisemitism in hopes that it will encourage Jews to immigrate. Enemies of Israel for any reason (whether due to antisemitism or anything else) also oppose Zionism, because it strengthens Israel. In the years following 1948, many of Israel's neighbors actually banned their Jewish minorities from leaving the country because it was feared that they would immigrate to Israel in large numbers, bolstering the still-young country's population and economy.
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Jan 27, 2016 22:04
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Kajeesus posted:Since it is apparently a central belief to at least half the posters in this thread, can you please please please quote a singe post where someone expresses the view that Jews run the world? From The Insect Court's perspective, condemning Israel's behavior is basically the equivalent to talking about "thugs" and "welfare queens", and he sees posts like this as similar to when racists say "BUT I NEVER SAID I HATE BLACK PEOPLE OR USED RACIAL SLURS." This is really stupid, of course (since 1. there are real, easily provable reasons to condemn Israel and 2. Israel is a country/government and not a race of people), but "show me explicit evidence of racism" isn't really a good counter-argument in and of itself. The flaw in his logic stems from the fact that he thinks "bad/racist people believe X" implies that "X" is inherently factually wrong. As an extreme (but accurate) example, someone using his logic in the 1940's would defend Imperial Japan by pointing at racist anti-Japanese sentiment.
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Jan 27, 2016 22:59
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GONGO fascist stooges Im Tirzu have come out with a new campaign in their struggle to make left-wing opinions literally illegal in Israel, have now published a list of artists and public personas whom they accuse of supporting "mole organizations" by which they mean human rights NGOs such as B'Tselem and Breaking The Silence. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.699911 These are the same guys who were once described in court verdict as "having certain ideological similarities to notable fascist ideologists", they are frequently endorsed by Netanyahu himself.
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Jan 27, 2016 23:19
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Christ I thought Lehava was bad.
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Jan 28, 2016 00:48
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You know what I really hate the most about TIC's posts in this thread is that whenever he makes one everyone has to rush in to call him an idiot and the thread stops being about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and more about how loving wrong his stupid wrong opinion is. Just let the red text speak for itself imo. edit - this post is the smoking gun.
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Jan 28, 2016 00:59
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For the protection of the
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Jan 28, 2016 01:09
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It was explicitly brought up as an example of anti-semitism, idiot I'm hopeful that can remain the thread consensus if someone implies that Zionists covertly control American(or Western) foreign policy, or that Israelis are a bunch bloodthirsty monsters gleefully slaughtering Palestinian innocents. Because, as you point out so courteously, at that point you're already into dees territory. Main Paineframe posted:A common anti-semitic excuse throughout history has been to accuse Jews of having dual loyalties that might result in them working against their birth country for the sake of foreign Jews. It's good to have at least one poster in the thread be willing to admit this. quote:The rise of Zionism has only exacerbated that - especially considering that Zionist organizations often intentionally act to cast and encourage such suspicions, in order to stoke antisemitism in hopes that it will encourage Jews to immigrate. The idea that "Zionist organizations" are often intentionally acting to stir up antisemitism is definitely gonna be a citation needed claim. Which Zionist organizations are acting to encourage anti-semitic stereotypes? AIPAC? Hillel? Help us out here.
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Jan 28, 2016 01:12
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The Insect Court posted:The idea that "Zionist organizations" are often intentionally acting to stir up antisemitism is definitely gonna be a citation needed claim. Which Zionist organizations are acting to encourage anti-semitic stereotypes? AIPAC? Hillel? Help us out here. Nice honeypot but I'm not gonna respond to that one with "the state of Israel" like you want me to.
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Jan 28, 2016 02:15
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The Insect Court posted:Israelis are a bunch bloodthirsty monsters gleefully slaughtering Palestinian innocents Well, not ALL Israelis.
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Jan 28, 2016 02:35
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Nevvy Z posted:Well, not ALL Israelis. most Israelis don't get a chance to slaughter
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Jan 28, 2016 02:40
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:For the protection of the
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Jan 28, 2016 02:51
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MIGF has been silenced by the moderators. Nothing mysterious about it. (NOTE: NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT MODERATION YOU FUCKS DO NOT PROBATE OR BAN ME)
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Jan 28, 2016 02:53
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emanresu tnuocca posted:GONGO fascist stooges Im Tirzu have come out with a new campaign in their struggle to make left-wing opinions literally illegal in Israel, have now published a list of artists and public personas whom they accuse of supporting "mole organizations" by which they mean human rights NGOs such as B'Tselem and Breaking The Silence. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.699911 Funny thing is that those fascists are funded by actual anti Semite (and filthy Arian) John Hagee.
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Jan 28, 2016 03:14
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If North Carolina says you need a driver's license to vote, is the law having a disparate impact on minorities? If Ted Cruz says cut entitlements like TANF and S-CHIP, is the proposal having a disparate impact on minorities? If the answer is yes, then by the same reasoning any proposal directed at Israel, regardless of merit or lack thereof, has a disparate impact on Jews. When groups like the United Nations are spending disproportionate time criticizing Israel as compared to say, Russia, or China, or the United States, much less regional hegemons and horrific human rights abusers such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Iran; and coupled with the historical reality that Jews tend to get scapegoated very often; coupled with the historical reality that there are clearly political reasons why this happens as no one wants to cross big human rights abusers, and other regional abusers largely get a free pass due to idiotic third wordlist anti-imperialist contortions. It's almost certain that the disproportionate focus on I/P happens for these political reasons, than the pure anti-Semitism of say, the Free Gaza movement, but the fact that it ends up echoing and magnifying what has historically been one of the most unjust and horrific power dynamics that is a loving disgusting blemish on the human race should generate a bit more pause than it does. That, and movements like BDS are both ineffective and effectively poor gasoline on the fire by enabling the far right in Israel. Accelerationism is a dumb doctrine that has no possible good end for Palestinians.
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Jan 28, 2016 03:29
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Kim Jong Il posted:That, and movements like BDS are both ineffective and effectively poor gasoline on the fire by enabling the far right in Israel. Accelerationism is a dumb doctrine that has no possible good end for Palestinians.
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Jan 28, 2016 04:12
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Kim Jong Il posted:If North Carolina says you need a driver's license to vote, is the law having a disparate impact on minorities? Yeah dude, Syria, Iran and Russia haven't faced any consequences for their actions 
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Jan 28, 2016 04:21
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Kim Jong Il posted:If North Carolina says you need a driver's license to vote, is the law having a disparate impact on minorities? This is absolute bullshit. For one thing disparate impact in itself isn't necessarily illegal or wrong and there are defenses against it. The defense in this case would be that Israel is an apartheid state committing genocide. It's bullshit for like 8 other reasons but gently caress you and your garbage think. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 04:28
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Cat Mattress posted:Nothing has a possible good end for Palestinians. Don't try to pretend to be concerned about their well-being, since you're the one arguing that Israel should be allowed to commit every crime it wants against them while the entire world should applaud, because Hitler. The well-being of Palestinians and Israelis depends on the Palestinians realizing that the war is over.
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Jan 28, 2016 06:56
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Maoist Pussy posted:The well-being of Palestinians and Israelis depends on the Palestinians realizing that the war is over. If the war is over, why are Israeli settlers conquering new land every day?
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Jan 28, 2016 06:59
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Reminder once again that during the Bush administration, Palestine offered everything Israel claims it wants (Jerusalem, no armies, etc.) and Israel still refused peace.
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Jan 28, 2016 07:06
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Peace is for the dead. If the Palestinians truly want peace then Israel is just doing it's job.  EDIT: There needs to be a " " for Israel, but with Netanyahu crying.
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Jan 28, 2016 07:15
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Kim Jong Il posted:If the answer is yes, then by the same reasoning any proposal directed at Israel, regardless of merit or lack thereof, has a disparate impact on Jews. When groups like the United Nations are spending disproportionate time criticizing Israel as compared to say, Russia, or China, or the United States, much less regional hegemons and horrific human rights abusers such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Iran; and coupled with the historical reality that Jews tend to get scapegoated very often; coupled with the historical reality that there are clearly political reasons why this happens as no one wants to cross big human rights abusers, and other regional abusers largely get a free pass due to idiotic third wordlist anti-imperialist contortions. It's almost certain that the disproportionate focus on I/P happens for these political reasons, than the pure anti-Semitism of say, the Free Gaza movement, but the fact that it ends up echoing and magnifying what has historically been one of the most unjust and horrific power dynamics that is a loving disgusting blemish on the human race should generate a bit more pause than it does. I think you will find that the United Nations is a collection of states, and as such it pretty much gives states a free pass for committing almost any atrocities within their borders. While it is true that Israel gets singled out in part because there are a lot of states who benefit domestically from criticizing due to anti-Semitic populaces, the reason this criticism is taken seriously in the United Nations is because Israel, unlike most other states that abuse human rights, is abusing the human rights of people outside the borders of its state! This runs directly contrary to near-universal consensus created by the post-WW2 decolonization movement, which was pretty well in place by 1967.
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Jan 28, 2016 08:50
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Cat Mattress posted:If the war is over, why are Israeli settlers conquering new land every day? Because the neighboring Arab nations have refused to allow the Palestinians to immigrate.
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Jan 28, 2016 09:00
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Maoist Pussy posted:Because the neighboring Arab nations have refused to allow the Palestinians to immigrate. Why should the Palestines leave their lands?
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Jan 28, 2016 09:29
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gently caress israel
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Jan 28, 2016 09:50
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Torrannor posted:Why should the Palestines leave their lands? Because it is loving Israel now, obviously.
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Jan 28, 2016 09:54
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Maoist Pussy posted:Because it is loving Israel now, obviously. If there's one thing basically every country in the entire world agrees on, it's that the occupied land isn't Israel's. Hell, even Israel doesn't try and claim that any of it besides East Jerusalem is actually Israeli because it knows it would get shat upon - hence why it has to go for the slow creeping annexation of settlement expansion instead.
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Jan 28, 2016 11:09
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israel will probably succeed in genociding the palestinians because they learned a lot about realpolitik from hitler's example
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Jan 28, 2016 11:23
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corn in the bible posted:israel will probably succeed in genociding the palestinians because they learned a lot about realpolitik from hitler's example It's the American Way of Life: if you genocide your natives slowly enough, no one will stop you.
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Jan 28, 2016 13:58
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Does any other nation target UN facilities and staff as regularly as Israel does?
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Jan 28, 2016 15:41
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team overhead smash posted:If there's one thing basically every country in the entire world agrees on, it's that the occupied land isn't Israel's. Hell, even Israel doesn't try and claim that any of it besides East Jerusalem is actually Israeli because it knows it would get shat upon - hence why it has to go for the slow creeping annexation of settlement expansion instead. That is what is known as a legal fiction.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:46
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The Insect Court posted:The idea that "Zionist organizations" are often intentionally acting to stir up antisemitism is definitely gonna be a citation needed claim. Which Zionist organizations are acting to encourage anti-semitic stereotypes? AIPAC? Hillel? Help us out here. I said Zionist organizations, so why are you suggesting Jewish organizations that have little to do with Zionism? Are you trying to trick people into condemning non-Zionist Jewish organizations so that you can declare that we're all virulent anti-semites using "Zionist" as a dogwhistle? I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but your constant attempts to try and confuse or mislead people into saying something you intend to cast as anti-semitic are really tiresome. When I said Zionist organizations, I meant actual Zionist organizations, like the Jewish Agency, which went to great efforts back in the 60s and 70s to convince other countries that they'd be better off without their Jews and should just expel their Jewish populations since the Jewish Agency would happily take any and all Jews off their hands (and send them to Israel to bolster the country's growth, while spinning a tale of glorious rescue aliyah). Or the Israeli government, which seems intent on waking up the "dual loyalty" elephant in the room by asking a former Italian government member to give up her Italian citizenship and become Israel's ambassador to Italy. Just because the charge of dual loyalties is often a false and prejudicial one made without any proof simply because of race or religion doesn't mean it can never be true (for instance, I wouldn't say it's anti-semitic to claim that Jonathan Pollard had dual loyalties), and I personally share the absolute horror that Italian Jews feel at Netanyahu's appointment there.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:54
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In a twist fully anticipated by everyone who's been paying attention to the way the Israeli right has been manipulating the local media Im Tirzu's campaign from yesterday was condemned by pretty much everybody from Nafatli Bennet to Yair Lapid - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Po...arythism-443061 Now the reason this twist should come as a shock to no one is that this was clearly a premeditated move, Im Tirzu are still Netanyahu's attack dogs and Bennet himself is linked with the foundation of the organization, the purpose of the current round of condemnations is only to present Bennet as being a moderate centrist. It's a big joke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nSxRPGCRew
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Jan 28, 2016 16:51
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I'm still pissed about this http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp so they can all loving rot for all I care
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Jan 28, 2016 17:06
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Alright so basically Im Tirzu and Lehava are basically fulfilling the same niche a group like The Patriotic Knights Corps from Legend of The Galactic Heroes would be doing. Israel is a hollow shell of a democracy.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:31
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Maoist Pussy posted:Because it is loving Israel now, obviously. Not unless the Palestinians have officially surrendered it to Israel in the war-ending peace deal. The reason why international law has provisions for protection of occupied territory is precisely because occupation does not equal ownership - even if you take control of a large amount of territory in a series of overwhelming military victories, that territory still legally belongs to the pre-conquest owner, and should be returned to them upon conclusion of the war unless the peace agreement specifically calls for the transfer of that land to another government, be it the occupying power or someone else entirely. Regardless of the military outcome, legal ownership of the land does not transfer without the consent of the current legal owner.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:34
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Main Paineframe posted:Not unless the Palestinians have officially surrendered it to Israel in the war-ending peace deal. If you have lost but failed to surrender, then it should be no surprise when the conflict continues.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:40
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Maoist Pussy posted:If you have lost but failed to surrender, then it should be no surprise when the conflict continues. I don't think that 'Palestine' was ever a party in any war Israel has ever fought in. Egypt and Jordan, the countries who Israel actually fought against have agreed to an armistice and have later signed peace treaties with Israel.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:04
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If you aren't uniformed combatants of any nation, you can't claim any land.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:32
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Quite the non-sequitur. What does a 'palestinian surrender' entail by your views? In 1948 Palestinians were in fact stateless, they were not citizens of any sovereign country and had no elected or internationally recognized leadership, in 1967 they were citizens of either Jordan or Egypt; this is whole rather irrelevant as the geneva convention extends protection to civilians regardless of whether they are subjects of a hostile nation or not. Technically, Palestinians haven't claimed any land as they were not a sovereign state, they privately owned the lands they lived upon. The crux of the matter is as always less about Palestinian independence and more about basic human rights, even if Israel has a right to annex the west bank and gaza (it doesn't), depriving the palestinian citizenry of equal civil rights is at the very least a clear example of apartheid.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:43
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