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Sovereign citizens essentially believe that law is a series of incantations of magical words. Seriously. You say the right words in the right order, endless power is yours, and the government only has power because they have mastered the dark arts of lawyerese. Whatever they want, there's some incantation that will get them that - and it didn't work last time because they didn't say it correctly. What the words are and what the theory behind the words is varies wildly at times but it just all goes back to magical thinking.
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Jan 28, 2016 16:58
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Also if you've never heard of them, keep in mind not all SovCits are cut from the same cloth. I've ran into a bunch of them, and the "gold fringe admiralty court" are by far the rarest. Unless they're in a group you'll probably never run in to two that give you the same excuse for why they're allowed to do whatever the hell they want, except the driving without a license thing, then "traveling" thing is pretty common. The best way I've found of dealing with them is saying something like "You can argue the constitutionality of this in court". They loving love being given a podium. Grem fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 16:59
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The best sovereign citizen word magic is their belief that birth certificates are actually berth certificates which is what is making you subject to admiralty court.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:00
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As a Millennial I posted:Speaking of Santilli, remember the guy on his stream from Tuesday who said "I'm documenting the arrest of Pete Santilli"? There's nothing funnier to me than the impotent YouTube comments. Up until yesterday, they could have come to the refuge and showed their support and actually put their money where their mouth is. But no, we're going to just complain on the internet about 'uniformed thuggery' or whatever. For such a vocal patriot revolutionary he sure is glad to comply with the police's orders. Vv He's such a slimeball, he's essentially Ike Clanton in Tombstone. As others have said, he's the toughest around when he has the advantage, but crumbles into a sniveling mess once he loses it. red19fire fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 17:01
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Surprise arrests are the best, that fuckface probably thought he was going to be able to just walk away from this because ~public property~ or something. I think the reason Santilli induces such anger is that he's basically a troll. Rolls up on a couple guards and yells poo poo like "BE CONSTITUTIONAL OR PULL THE loving TRIGGER" and then goes crying to the sheriff, saying he "only asked them to be constitutional." It's easy to see how smugly manipulative he's trying to be when you're seeing both sides of the story via buffering video, but the people there with him only see the side he's feeding them at any given moment and thus don't knock his drat teeth down his throat. That might change with the presentation of evidence, and who knows, maybe he'll get hit with some additional charges for fanning the flames like he did.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:02
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Prester Jane posted:It's amazing how polite and respectful and obedient they all are in this video. Especially when you contrast that with the belligerent attitude they all had when 50 of them crashed/disrupted that town hall meeting. Their entire leadership being scooped up in one blow really shattered their delusions. Starts right about here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVWykMKiOjU&t=1606s Pete's a dirtbag and all but it's still pretty harrowing.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:07
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evilweasel posted:The best sovereign citizen word magic is their belief that birth certificates are actually berth certificates which is what is making you subject to admiralty court. Haha the hole really has no bottom does it. I really want to believe that one started from some sort of pun joke someone made mockingly to a sovereign citizen and they just completely missed it and took it as straight up fact.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:12
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From the closed FB group Oregon III% and it's from yesterday but you folks may find it interesting. quote:Brian Wilson Also this is an interesting read/rant http://ahtrimble.com/2016/01/27/sitrep-burns-oregon-1272016/ quote:BLM developments – Today there was a national conference call where state and local BLM managers were told – ChlamydiaJones fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 17:13
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Captain Bravo posted:Oh my god. I didn't click the link, and I should have, because that's my loving friend. Whoever said he lost his job over this was 100% correct, this poo poo got him fired and it was hilarious. He actually posted this video himself, trying to show how much of an rear end in a top hat the cop was, and we laughed and laughed at his dumb rear end. He still drives a truck now, somehow he didn't lose his Class C over this, but man it's weird to see someone actually become a meme. I'm debating whether or not to post this on his facebook wall now. He already publicly shamed himself by putting it on youtube by his own free will, so I don't see what's the problem. Please tell me the company made him pay for the window.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:15
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theflyingorc posted:Oh, also this shadow person means the government owes you $2 million. For reasons. The Crotch fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 17:18
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evilweasel posted:Sovereign citizens essentially believe that law is a series of incantations of magical words. Seriously. You say the right words in the right order, endless power is yours, and the government only has power because they have mastered the dark arts of lawyerese. Whatever they want, there's some incantation that will get them that - and it didn't work last time because they didn't say it correctly.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:19
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theflyingorc posted:*of note: a number of "sovereign citizen" training videos/pamphlets are for-profit enterprises (give me $500 for my book explaining how to beat the government!). I suspect that many of these people aren't even true believers, but just opportunists actively creating crazy militia people to line their pockets. My long-standing theory is it was done entirely as a controlled scam in the 80s and early 90s when there were a handful of hucksters who had been known conmen cris-crossing the country selling this "one weird trick to let you not pay taxes", but when the internet came about true believers/suckers began sharing it to the internet and it grew out of control. Kinda like how the PUA stuff all grew out of those creepy "seduce women with this one weird trick" infomercials. There were individual weirdos around but nothing to spread and amplify. It's like a memetic virus - it was there but somewhat benign when it was only bring spread from scammer to sucker, but the internet let it be transmitted from sucker to new sucker. Then things mutate.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:20
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Prester Jane posted:It's amazing how polite and respectful and obedient they all are in this video. Especially when you contrast that with the belligerent attitude they all had when 50 of them crashed/disrupted that town hall meeting. Their entire leadership being scooped up in one blow really shattered their delusions. Yep, aside from the Saturn-sized level of schadenfreude, the biggest takeaway was this fuckface's massive change in demeanor. If I had to guess, these goobers probably thought that they would have, at the very least, quiet backing of Republicans in the media and in every level of the government like they did with at the Bundy Ranch. They probably truly believed that powerful Republicans would make sure that the FBI didn't stick their noses too deeply lest they suffer major "mysterious'" budget cuts. So despite these mouthbreathers constantly yelling about going to war with the federal government, most of them actually had no real desire to do so cause they didn't think there would be any need for it. But once it became clear that poo poo actually got real, everybody took a step back and said "WHOA WAIT A MINUTE THAT' WASN'T SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN". Hopefully this sends a signal to any other dipshit militia groups to think twice before pulling some poo poo like this again. My only question is why the Feds arrested him after talking to him for like 5 mins. He walked away and then came back and THEN they arrested him. Not that I'm complaining, just seemed weird.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:21
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The Crotch posted:This is the bit I really don't understand, the "your birth certificate is super valuable and if can lodge your maker hook between its ring-segments you can ride the Shai-Hulud to an enormous pile pf money. Everything else is dumb but I can at least see some semblance of reasoning behind it; this is just... I don't get it, man. This part makes less sense than any other part, because it isn't really based on misinterpretation of law like the majority of their delusions (also, the dollar amount varies from telling to telling, with a few common numbers). I think the reason it survives is just because of how appealing it is - the government owes you money, all your debts and mistakes can be repaid in one fell swoop.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:23
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ChlamydiaJones posted:From the closed FB group Oregon III% and it's from yesterday but you folks may find it interesting. So its "Man, we wanted to help fight the feds but they kept running OUR plates and watching us--we're helpless!" "We're also the LOCAL crisis center for wayward militants, the government can't help these people but they know WE CAN because we're FREE MEN" And thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus...
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Jan 28, 2016 17:24
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As this thread goes off into general SovCit territory I will say that the emergence of this movement and spread of the ideas is a acute symptom of deep systematic problems in our country. People in serious debt, people with nothing but financially ruinous engagements with any legal authority- their desperate minds become jelly and open to magical thinking that will somehow cure their problems whether mental/financial/legal.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:24
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Jacobin posted:On the general theme of Sovcits, this ~Florida~ training video has some classic animated shorts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALPs_n0WQaY I started to skip around and look for the funny cartoons, the first thing I came to was police dashcam footage of a traffic stop, a guy leaning out the side of a van firing a rifle, and "They didn't know what they were getting into. Two officers didn't come home that day. And one of them was my son." 
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Jan 28, 2016 17:25
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meristem posted:You know, this actually being true would make for a pretty fun premise for a fantasy story. It's like in Earthsea where if you know the true name for things then you have special powers.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:25
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Jacobin posted:As this thread goes off into general SovCit territory I will say that the emergence of this movement and spread of the ideas is a acute symptom of deep systematic problems in our country- people in serious debt, people with nothing but financially ruinous engagements with any legal authority- their minds become jelly and open to magical thinking that will somehow cure their problems whether mental/financial/legal. It's not just this country, though. Sovereigns are active throughout, at least, the English-speaking world. I have no idea if it crosses language barriers, but there have been Canadian and British SovCits arguing their points based on things in the US constitution.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:26
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Beef Hardcheese posted:I started to skip around and look for the funny cartoons, the first thing I came to was police dashcam footage of a traffic stop, a guy leaning out the side of a van firing a rifle, and "They didn't know what they were getting into. Two officers didn't come home that day. And one of them was my son." The funny shorts were before that but yes that was hosed up and paused me for a moment, seeing the kid appear out the right of the truck with an assault rifle in tandem with his Dad. Truly messed up theflyingorc posted:It's not just this country, though. Sovereigns are active throughout, at least, the English-speaking world. I have no idea if it crosses language barriers, but there have been Canadian and British SovCits arguing their points based on things in the US constitution. This is true- there was a Canadian Judge who authored this amazing long judgment that is like a full history of the sovcit movement Ill see if I can find it.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:26
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So is anyone still there? Did the pedo kid get arrested?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:27
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A drivers licence is actually a DIVER's licence, which means you cannot be arrested for shoplifting as everything in a store is technically salvage and legally free to take
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Jan 28, 2016 17:28
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sonatinas posted:It's like in Earthsea where if you know the true name for things then you have special powers. It's kinda cool in Warhammer: 40K where if you know the real name of demons, hell even people with the right conditions, you can make them your slaves. One demon, Ghargatuloth, true name is literally 300+ syllables long though, so it's not very practical.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:29
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ChlamydiaJones posted:BLM developments – Today there was a national conference call where state and local BLM managers were told – There's a "Bundy Militia" site that has declared a "militia interpol red notice" for Governor Brown for first degree murder. Anybody know what the gently caress that's supposed to mean? My guess is they're calling for her execution, but it'd be nice to hear from someone who's actually familiar with their made-up language.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:29
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As a Millennial I posted:There's a "Bundy Militia" site that has declared a "militia interpol red notice" for Governor Brown for first degree murder. Anybody know what the gently caress that's supposed to mean? My guess is they're calling for her execution, but it'd be nice to hear from someone who's actually familiar with their made-up language. Not clicking but did they put a crosshair over a map with the state capitol?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:30
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Jacobin posted:As this thread goes off into general SovCit territory I will say that the emergence of this movement and spread of the ideas is a acute symptom of deep systematic problems in our country. People in serious debt, people with nothing but financially ruinous engagements with any legal authority- their desperate minds become jelly and open to magical thinking that will somehow cure their problems whether mental/financial/legal. Yeah, sure it is all society's fault that millionaires like the bundies are sov cits.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:30
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sonatinas posted:It's like in Earthsea where if you know the true name for things then you have special powers.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:31
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Looking around the site all I can make out is that it's an "arrest warrant." What they'd do after that, who knows?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:31
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I've not run into any hardcore admiralty court SovCits. The few I've talked to simply believe that you are born A Person. Stuff like belonging to the US, having a social security number, a driver's license, paying taxes, being under the authority of the cops is all just trappings of an organization you are forced into. A Person is meant to be be free and live and exist, while all the crap of being a citizen is thrust upon them, so they forswear all of the stuff the government foists on them to become their own little sovereign nation. No person is born into a government, they are born a free citizen and then forced into the system. This, then, makes them not subject to the laws (like driving with a license or whatnot) because they're not under the law once they've renounced their US citizenship, viewing themselves as something akin to expatriates or visiting foreigners who can only be compelled if a "crime" (specifically, where there is an injured party which they argue stuff like speeding and not having a license do not) has been committed between their island of citizenship and the US government. I've never met any magic words folks, but there's a number of people that believe "we're born free, man, and it's bullshit that I'm subject to all this stuff I didn't opt into".
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Jan 28, 2016 17:32
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Yeah, sure it is all society's fault that millionaires like the bundies are sov cits. What makes you think they're millionaires?
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Jan 28, 2016 17:32
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FAUXTON posted:Surprise arrests are the best, that fuckface probably thought he was going to be able to just walk away from this because ~public property~ or something. The Crotch posted:This is the bit I really don't understand, the "your birth certificate is super valuable and if you can lodge your maker hook between its ring-segments you can ride the Shai-Hulud to an enormous pile of money" poo poo. Everything else is dumb but I can at least see some semblance of reasoning behind it; this is just... I don't get it, man. It's to do with the US moving away from the gold standard and instead leveraging the future value of people in order to raise debt. I can see how you could get to that by squinting real hard at economics. What's more puzzling is why people would think that you were entitled to, and indeed could access, that money, but I think that once you get to the point at which "secret monetary value exists in relation to you" then the rules will write themselves in people's heads pretty quickly.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:33
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Yeah, sure it is all society's fault that millionaires like the bundies are sov cits. Nah, that's just greed and subsequent buying into Daddy's horseshit while you compete for resources with your 13 other siblings (serious, dude has 14 kids and 60 grandkids) The hangers-on that these guys attract though, they're usually the ones pushed over the edge when they failed their privilege checks.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:33
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As a Millennial I posted:Looking around the site all I can make out is that it's an "arrest warrant." What they'd do after that, who knows? Collect the bounty of $100,000 Bundy Bucks!
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Jan 28, 2016 17:33
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meristem posted:You know, this actually being true would make for a pretty fun premise for a fantasy story. Nah, nothing can beat the insanity of actually what they did in reality. http://www.scribd.com/doc/122490811/The-Anti-Government-Guidebook-for-Judges This is guide for Judges on how to handle them, with examples. Its a great read.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:35
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As a Millennial I posted:Speaking of Santilli, remember the guy on his stream from Tuesday who said "I'm documenting the arrest of Pete Santilli"? All the best documentaries have the camera man screaming "I'M DOCUMENTING THIS!" over all the audio
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Jan 28, 2016 17:36
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Jacobin posted:This is true- there was a Canadian Judge who authored this amazing long judgment that is like a full history of the sovcit movement Ill see if I can find it. https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html
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Jan 28, 2016 17:39
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Duke Igthorn posted:All the best documentaries have the camera man screaming "I'M DOCUMENTING THIS!" over all the audio Hey, that guy held the camera steady and pointed it at the right thing for nearly all of the time. After having watched several of Pete's videos, I found it rather refreshing and can certainly forgive him bellowing in pantshitting terror every once in a while. I think it added atmosphere 
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Jan 28, 2016 17:41
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Brian Wilson posted:We got another call.................2 young kids that were at the reserve called 911 and wanted out, the girl is pregnant and he wanted her out!!!! 911 connected him to the crisis line, they connected him to the F.B.I and they called us. 2 A.M these kids dove a ATV MILES to a R.V park in the freezing cold were we picked them up and took them in, hot bowl of food, HOT coffee, HOT chocolate LOTS of tears as they knew the deceased man very well and the grief was to much. A warm bed is something they haven't seen in a month was a welcome site and they SLEPT. Transportation being arranged so they can go home.
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Jan 28, 2016 17:42
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Ah thank you- Anyone who hasn't read some of this and interested in Sovereign Citizens should check it out its full of lots of gold quote:[408] In R. v. McCormick, 2012 NSSC 150 (CanLII) at para. 9 an OPCA litigant argued the Freeman-on-the-Land ‘magic hat’ immunized against criminal sanction; see also R. v. McCormick, 2012 NSSC 288 (CanLII) at paras. 28-32. Naturally, that did not work. As Justice Moir observed in R. v. McCormick, 2012 NSSC 288 at para. 32: “[t]his teaching is not only wrong in the sense that it is false. It is wrongful. That is, it is full of wrong.”
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Jan 28, 2016 17:44
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Tei posted:A solution to the conflict is to build a wall around the building and put "federal jail" in the door of the wall. They are already in federal land. People getting hated on for being morons and assholes isn't group think, it's motherfucking cause and effect.
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