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Deified Data posted:Was this the one with the truckers? Yes! That's it. I think the truckers were going to shut down DC or something.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:24
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CNN now has anonymous police quotes saying Finicum was armed and "reached for his waistband" when he charged them. Edit: they also confirm the shooting was caught on video and police are debating whether to release it or not.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:26
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As a Millennial I posted:What do you think that would entail, though? Not guilty verdicts by reason of insanity? Court-ordered psychiatric care? The latter, specifically. Unless there are other ways the state/city/county can force someone into treatment. Although I guess the only way that really happens is by putting them in prison, where they get "treatment".
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Jan 28, 2016 19:26
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As a Millennial I posted:What do you think that would entail, though? Not guilty verdicts by reason of insanity? Court-ordered psychiatric care? Get them some cymbalta and a support network that doesn't involve Gadsden flag macros and delusions of grandeur.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:27
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I straight-up asked the Pete Santilli chat how many of them were refusing to take some medicine they were prescribed. The answer was not surprising.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:29
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red19fire posted:What a surprise, the guy who was openly calling for the murder of police yesterday changes his tune to 'come on guys, we're just camping, this isn't fair! Wonder what caused the sudden change of heart...
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Jan 28, 2016 19:30
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There are two reasons I won't place a generic sovcit on a 72 hour mental health hold: 1) It verges on suppression of first amendment rights. Oh you object to our system of law and government, and are expressing it to me? Off to the mental ward with you. I don't necessarily think that's an automatic first amendment issue, but we tend to be pretty cautious with things like that. Given a choice between taking a law enforcement action against an unambiguous violation of law, or against speech that is not against the law, I'm choosing the former. 2) They're not mentally ill (or at least no more mentally ill than a whole lot of other people we don't place on mental health holds), they're assholes. They understand the difference between right and wrong, they're not hearing voices, they're not making GBS threads in their hand and eating it. They're just assholes. They could very likely benefit from some therapy to address some anger and inferiority issues, but a guy on his third DUI could probably also use some therapy and I'm not putting him on a 72 hour hold either. That's not to say I can't imagine placing one of these people on a hold. There are no doubt some seriously bipolar or schizophrenic people who manifest their illness with this stuff, but at that point you're putting someone on the hold because of the disease, not just for spewing crazy rhetoric.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:31
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SquadronROE posted:What I don't get about the Sovereign Citizens and such, is why we aren't just treating them as if they're mentally ill. I mean, they are incredibly delusional - to the point where they can't understand the real world anymore and are a danger to themselves and others since they don't think laws matter. Like that guy in the "Sovereign Citizens getting owned" video who just drove off from the cop during the traffic stop. What if he had been drunk or something? We have plenty of homeless crazy people already.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:32
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SquadronROE posted:I get their reasoning, I just don't see why law enforcement doesn't check them into a mental institution involuntarily since they are a threat. You don't get why we don't immediately jail people who express certain beliefs
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Jan 28, 2016 19:32
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STAC Goat posted:The thing I've learned over the last 24 hours is that apparently the FBI don't gently caress around. That's what I've been saying all along. They may look quiet and ineffectual at first and seem to be doing nothing at all, but they're just waiting for the right moment to bring the hammer down, and they bring one hell of a  .  Kazak_Hstan posted:Are they actually not arresting people as they leave? Anyone who leaves now is proving for all the world to see that they're scared of the cops and would rather voluntarily give themselves over to the mercy of the FBI and go home in shame after being allowed by the cops to pass, rather than go out in the blaze of glory "defending" the occupation from the police like they claimed. And if they're not willing to fight to the death against the cops now, when they're all pumped up and in front of their militia friends and being livestreamed out for the world to see, then it's a fair bet they'll go quietly when the FBI shows up at their front door in a few weeks. Also, the FBI is very anxious to make sure they always have an escape route so their fear works to drive them out; if they feel like there's no safe escape and their back is against the wall, fear would drive them toward violence instead, which would be bad. MechanicalTomPetty posted:Wouldn't this technically make them illegal immigrants? Can't we just round them up and drop them off in Mexico? Or get Trump to build a giant wall around their houses? All of their bullshit doesn't even have that much meaning. You can't just say "I'm not a US citizen anymore" and be stateless - the US doesn't honor that. As far as the US government is concerned, you can't give up your US citizenship without the permission of the US government. IIRC, you need to go in front of a US diplomatic official at an overseas US embassy, explain your reasons, prove that you have citizenship and living arrangements elsewhere all lined up, and if they sign off on all that and decide that you understand what you're giving up and aren't just doing it to dodge taxes, they might grant your request. All these sovereign citizens are considered by the US to be US citizens, regardless of what they think about it - and it's virtually impossible to renounce your citizenship from within the country, because without citizenship, you no longer have the right to visit or live in the US and have to get visas to visit just like any other foreigner. SquadronROE posted:What I don't get about the Sovereign Citizens and such, is why we aren't just treating them as if they're mentally ill. I mean, they are incredibly delusional - to the point where they can't understand the real world anymore and are a danger to themselves and others since they don't think laws matter. Like that guy in the "Sovereign Citizens getting owned" video who just drove off from the cop during the traffic stop. What if he had been drunk or something? Belief in magic words that make you immune from what you perceive to be overreaches, excesses, and abuses by law enforcement or the legal system isn't necessarily "delusional" - nor is it unique to sovereign citizens. Sure, sovcit stuff gets pretty crazy, but when you laugh about "magic words" the first image that comes to mind is a white college kid nervously repeating "I do not consent to a search of my vehicle" and "Am I under arrest or am I free to go" over and over while a cop reaches for the baggie hastily stuffed under the seat. White American culture is full of mythical ways to "beat the system", and while most are bullshit, some have some truth to them, especially when it comes to common " young white person" crimes like speeding or smoking weed in the car. SquadronROE posted:I get their reasoning, I just don't see why law enforcement doesn't check them into a mental institution involuntarily since they are a threat. Involuntary commitment is actually super hard to do and there are a lot of restrictions in it to prevent its abuse! It's certainly not something you can do just because someone has kooky political beliefs, and it's usually not something that law enforcement can initiate on their own.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:32
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SquadronROE posted:I get their reasoning, I just don't see why law enforcement doesn't check them into a mental institution involuntarily since they are a threat. Disregarding the first amendment stuff: Have you ever seen the inside of a mental institution?
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Jan 28, 2016 19:33
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Kazak_Hstan posted:There are two reasons I won't place a generic sovcit on a 72 hour mental health hold: i think my favorite description of how to identify a patient who has a personality disorder is "did you leave the examination room thinking that they were an rear end in a top hat?"
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Jan 28, 2016 19:36
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Kazak_Hstan posted:There are two reasons I won't place a generic sovcit on a 72 hour mental health hold: That makes sense, I suppose all I have to go on is that they are sounding like crazy people and may be duped into believing stuff that isn't true. Not actually mentally ill. Thanks for the thorough explanation.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:37
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:i think my favorite description of how to identify a patient who has a personality disorder is "did you leave the examination room thinking that they were an rear end in a top hat?" I don't get it. I feel dumb for not getting it but I'd like to know.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:38
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Main Paineframe posted:
I think that's a defensible position, and it is worth making it clear that there is always a de-escalation option so people don't decide they have no choice but to fight to the death. However, my skepticism comes from a doubt that anyone who gives up and leaves is necessarily defanged. Sure, maybe they have been exposed as frauds and stfu. Or maybe they get home, their sov cit buddies are all "wow, sure didnt know you were such a pussy," and they turn around and do something to prove they're for real. Humans are weird and unpredictable. Like I said, I'm reserving judgment at this point. It remains to be seen exactly what was good tactics and bad tactics, and I'll wait until there is more complete information to figure out exactly what I think about the plan. It is pretty clear though that at some point after the occupation started the serious business people were given a big green light, and they have had a pretty coherent and well-executed plan since then in most respects.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:41
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red19fire posted:I really hope someone is downloading these videos and making before & after compilations of them going from brazen lunatic to whimpering coward. 
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Jan 28, 2016 19:42
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Being a sovcit nutter isn't a reason to get anybody committed, but its a fantastic indicator that it may need to he considered.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:43
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Kazak_Hstan posted:I think that's a defensible position, and it is worth making it clear that there is always a de-escalation option so people don't decide they have no choice but to fight to the death. However, my skepticism comes from a doubt that anyone who gives up and leaves is necessarily defanged. Sure, maybe they have been exposed as frauds and stfu. Or maybe they get home, their sov cit buddies are all "wow, sure didnt know you were such a pussy," and they turn around and do something to prove they're for real. Humans are weird and unpredictable. What you mentioned before may hold true here too. They may not actually believe all of this stuff outside of their sovcit buddies. So once they escape and are faced with a warrant at home, they may back down.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:44
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Doctor Butts posted:I don't get it. I feel dumb for not getting it but I'd like to know. people with things like histrionic or borderline personality disorders overwhelmingly tend to be assholes or just plain annoying to their doctors it's common enough to be an informal rule of thumb
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Jan 28, 2016 19:44
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From the leader of PPN: Good luck dude.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:45
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Kazak_Hstan posted:Like I said, I'm reserving judgment at this point. It remains to be seen exactly what was good tactics and bad tactics, and I'll wait until there is more complete information to figure out exactly what I think about the plan. It is pretty clear though that at some point after the occupation started the serious business people were given a big green light, and they have had a pretty coherent and well-executed plan since then in most respects. My guess is still that they're considering getting the reservation clear to be the absolute top priority. We need a handful of people to leave and then we can fix the destruction.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:49
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Doctor Butts posted:I don't get it. I feel dumb for not getting it but I'd like to know. Most adjusted people have developed the social skills to hold a simple pleasant conversation, especially if that person is evaluating them. If they can't get through one simple conversation without pissing off their evaluator than that's probably an issue. At least that's how I read it.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:50
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ALL AMERICANS well by that I mean white gun owners. and not too dark, mixed breed whites. and you need to be Christian because only through Jesus Christ can we prevail. and I also mean guys. no women, especially not those unwed whores using food stamps. UNITE BROTHERS!
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Jan 28, 2016 19:50
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theflyingorc posted:My guess is still that they're considering getting the reservation clear to be the absolute top priority. We need a handful of people to leave and then we can fix the destruction. So much garbage around the trucks they danced around this morning. They're gonna leave all that Coleman crap out there too aren't they...
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Jan 28, 2016 19:50
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As a Millennial I posted:From the leader of PPN: #1: who the gently caress are the people he wants reinstated? #2: MLK and Rosa Parks... famous for openly carrying firearms during their peaceful civil disobedience.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:51
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theflyingorc posted:My guess is still that they're considering getting the reservation clear to be the absolute top priority. We need a handful of people to leave and then we can fix the destruction. They've definitely got to get the people out first, because I'm sure they will have left garbage/waste/traps behind.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:51
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Going back a ways, how the gently caress do all these libertarian shitheads get jobs in the government when I can't? Is it some kind of affirmative action for dipshits?
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Jan 28, 2016 19:52
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MariusLecter posted:So much garbage around the trucks they danced around this morning. Coleman makes good stuff; if they throw it away, they're bigger idiots than we already think they are.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:52
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if MLK and Rosa Parks did not stand up for their believes
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Jan 28, 2016 19:52
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All of their ammo and bravado and now they're crying about wanting to leave. I have no sympathy. I do think that the feds should just drive up (in an armored vehicle, just in case) and just take them at this point. They're clearly not going to shoot back.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:54
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As a Millennial I posted:From the leader of PPN: I like the assertion that they could have arrested the Bundy's and company peacefully at any time with no issues at all, conveniently ignoring the whole armed takeover and threatening statements made to the media and all that poo poo
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Jan 28, 2016 19:55
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As a Millennial I posted:From the leader of PPN: This militiaman does not understand how civil disobedience works.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:57
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Levitate posted:I like the assertion that they could have arrested the Bundy's and company peacefully at any time with no issues at all, conveniently ignoring the whole armed takeover and threatening statements made to the media and all that poo poo There's an attitude among these people that brandishing a gun is not a threat. That being armed simply means that you can "defend yourself." But defend yourself from what? From an all-out assault? Or just from being arrested "unconstitutionally"?
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Jan 28, 2016 19:57
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As a Millennial I posted:From the leader of PPN: Says the guy who wasn't at the ranch defending his freedoms in the first place....
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Jan 28, 2016 19:58
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As a Millennial I posted:There's an attitude among these people that brandishing a gun is not a threat. That being armed simply means that you can "defend yourself." But defend yourself from what? From an all-out assault? Or just from being arrested "unconstitutionally"? Black people. Defend themselves from black people is the correct answer.
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Jan 28, 2016 19:58
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As a Millennial I posted:From the leader of PPN: quote:"We will escort them out of Oregon again PEACEFULLY" Oh really now?
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Jan 28, 2016 19:58
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Nessus posted:Going back a ways, how the gently caress do all these libertarian shitheads get jobs in the government when I can't? Is it some kind of affirmative action for dipshits? So I have a good friend that isn't a Sovereign citizen but he is a pretty hardcore libertarian. He works for the government in an agency called DORA. Want to guess what DORA stands for? Department of Regulatory Agencies
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Jan 28, 2016 19:59
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Stultus Maximus posted:This militiaman does not understand how civil disobedience works. Look he name dropped MLK and Ms. Parks what more do you want
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Jan 28, 2016 19:59
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A Winner is Jew posted:#1: who the gently caress are the people he wants reinstated? #3 who the gently caress is ppn
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Jan 28, 2016 20:00
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A Winner is Jew posted:Black people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIONc7uohVs
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Jan 28, 2016 20:00
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