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I didn't complain about Rmut, singularity, octopode crushers, or anything, but this... this is going too far. I'd rather see the actual bolt spells replaced by something interesting and the wands left alone.
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Jan 29, 2016 14:26
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It should be noted that the spawn rates of the damage wands have also been adjusted accordingly, so you will still get the same amount of damage wands, they will just be from the new set. I wouldn't actually mind this change, IF the flame fart wand was removed as well, and the lightning wand made a bit better. I cannot remember a situation where I thought using either of the puff wands was a better idea than just running already. Maybe with an artificer start against early adders, but then again, I can't think of a huge problem with just handing them a lightning wand instead. The lightning wand is already loud, having poor accuracy on top of that just makes it feel like a last resort crapshoot option, rather than a powerful item to be used sparingly.
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Jan 29, 2016 15:03
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I love how the thought process is "hey, there are too many wands because reasons" -> "I know, let's get rid of the good ones!" Don't play trunk, don't play .18 if it comes out like this. Problem solved.
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Jan 29, 2016 15:07
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I don't think this is a bad change. Removing the mostly useless wands is a good change. Losing Fire and Cold will be felt, but Fireball , Lamps of Fire and Vials of Floods basically take their place. Draining is better than Fire/Cold against non-demonic/undead enemies anyway.
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Jan 29, 2016 15:19
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Fireball is kinda crap against big beefy enemies and smiters hiding behind friends, whereas the bolt wands can waste them, making them excellent emergency consumables. The elemental gadget things are one-use and then need to be recharged, are fairly rare, and are not as reliably accurate as the wands. I'm gonna play trunk a bit to see how it goes, but I believe this is a Bad Change. e: lmao at good god worshipers. "Sorry, you can't use the only actually good attack wand left in the game, eat poo poo to a hydra I guess"
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Jan 29, 2016 15:57
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I think deterioration 1 may be my favorite bad mutation on a non-DD. The occasional stat drops aren't too bad, and they serve as a reminder to play more cautiously. Sif chat: I recently ascended a DsIE of Sif, and it's a really good god from the mid-game onward. The Ds invocation proficiency means you're never out of MP, plus access to a big toolbox by the time you need to do the Lair branches is a huge boon, speaking as a player who splats most of his characters on said branches or slightly after. The "Forget Spell" ability is kind of lackluster, since I almost always end up with a huge stack of amnesia scrolls, but everything else helps a hybrid hybrid harder. code:
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Jan 29, 2016 17:56
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I have said before that Sif is boring but good, and that's why. You end up getting an enormous toolbox of spells, and you can channel for reliable MP recovery in a pinch. Sif is hands down the least flashy god in the game, but offers great spell versatility (eventually - IMO early Sif book gifts are a good idea) and a single boring but ridiculously useful and convenient button that you will probably press thousands of times.
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Jan 29, 2016 18:38
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Sif would be a very powerful and appealing choice if her piety gain method wasn't such a pain.
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Jan 29, 2016 18:46
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I'd rather that frost / flame were axed but i can live with this i suppose. I decided to trust in the PF at the point when he made the changes to identifying wands. At first i thought it was bullshit but when i played with it it turns out its kinda enjoyable and good. I will not miss these wands. Bonus: you dont get instagibbed by a goblin with a wand of cold on d4
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Jan 29, 2016 18:54
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Darox posted:What new evokables have been added that suddenly tipped the balance and make everything "too cluttered"? There's been a slow accumulation over the last, oh, decade or so. New rod types, elemental evokers, box of beasts, sack of spiders, phantom mirror, xompiece... plus adding other things that clutter up your inventory, like turning badpotions into sometimesgoodpotions (lignify, cancellation, ambrosia), the removal of item weight (which makes you more likely to fill up your inventory), etc. As the commit noted, the set of wands has never been changed in DCSS's history - insofar as there were adjustments to be made, one was probably overdue! Mystery Prize posted:Wonder why they decided to remove wands of cold/fire? Those were incredibly useful midgame, even with no evocations. There wouldn't be much point to removing wands that no one used. (There wasn't much point to removing magic darts, but there wasn't much point to keeping it around, either.) PleasingFungus fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 20:50
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If the objective is to reduce clutter then wouldn't removing weak, unpopular wands dovetail nicely with that? 
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Jan 29, 2016 21:19
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Angry Diplomat posted:If the objective is to reduce clutter then wouldn't removing weak, unpopular wands dovetail nicely with that? Floor clutter != inventory clutter
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Jan 29, 2016 21:23
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But the fire/cold bolt wands were useful for just about any sort of character. I tend to use up at least a couple to survive something deadly I run into, like an early ork priest or ahydra I can't otherwise kill.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:42
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 I can't complain to hard, a lot of good changes have come in the last few builds, but man, have there been some stinkers. I will get over it and keep playing, it just seems like I been having to 'get over it and keep playing' a lot this go around.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:47
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Like I said, I don't like the change, but I can't complain that much. After all, 0.17 is a really great release, so if I can't stand these changes I'll just not move to 0.18 when it comes out.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:50
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World Famous W posted:
i'm pretty sure there have been more posts about five wands being removed, within 24 hours of the change, than about an entire new wands-and-evocations focused god in the month or so since it was added. online discourse?
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Jan 29, 2016 21:53
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PleasingFungus posted:i'm pretty sure there have been more posts about five wands being removed, within 24 hours of the change, than about an entire new wands-and-evocations focused god in the month or so since it was added. Well, I did point out it seems silly to add a god based on wands/rods, then immediately remove a bunch of wands. But yes, nature of online discuss is people aren't going to start discussion about topics they have no issue with. I can imagine as someone who works on the game that is a bit frustrating. So let me thank you for all the great improvements since I stopped playing in like 0.11 or 0.12 or something. The game is much much better overall at least for me. Edit: Only wands that really bother me with this change is cold, and lesser extend frost. Since they are valuable early-mid because a lot of enemies have the cold blooded effect, and it was nice to be able to exploit that on stabbers/melee characters. Darts, and Invis make sense, flame is nice, but so be it. Could have also ditched lightning bolt IMO. Matlock Birthmark fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 21:56
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PleasingFungus posted:i'm pretty sure there have been more posts about five wands being removed, within 24 hours of the change, than about an entire new wands-and-evocations focused god in the month or so since it was added.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:11
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PleasingFungus posted:i'm pretty sure there have been more posts about five wands being removed, within 24 hours of the change, than about an entire new wands-and-evocations focused god in the month or so since it was added. One is adding a new feature that players can't experience unless they play trunk. The other is removing something most people playing the game are already familiar with. Its not hard to understand why people are going to be more vocal about the thing they have experience with. There was plenty of talk about Pakellas being cool from trunk players anyways though. PleasingFungus posted:Floor clutter != inventory clutter Players inventories aren't cluttered in the early game, which is where wands of fire/cold are most useful. You could just, you know, drop them after clearing lair like I did in 99% of my games.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:12
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Matlock Birthmark posted:Well, I did point out it seems silly to add a god based on wands/rods, then immediately remove a bunch of wands. Yeah, that's one of my own worries about the change. We'll see how it pans out. Matlock Birthmark posted:Edit: Only wands that really bother me with this change is cold, and lesser extend frost. Since they are valuable early-mid because a lot of enemies have the cold blooded effect, and it was nice to be able to exploit that on stabbers/melee characters. AFAIK, those wands (and their corresponding spells) didn't trigger that effect anyway. Here's a list of the (sort of arbitrary?) things that do. Internet Kraken posted:Players inventories aren't cluttered in the early game, which is where wands of fire/cold are most useful. You could just, you know, drop them after clearing lair like I did in 99% of my games. I'd argue that wands of fire/cold remained useful for considerably longer than lair. I would keep one or two around for most of the game, and I don't think that was uncommon or bad play by any means.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:19
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PleasingFungus posted:AFAIK, those wands (and their corresponding spells) didn't trigger that effect anyway. Here's a list of the (sort of arbitrary?) things that do. ...Well I feel dumb then. I could have sworn that I've used a wand to get that effect on a Water moccasin before. It says there that freezing branded melee causes the effect. Does freezing branded ranged ammo do the same?
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Jan 29, 2016 22:24
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On a different note entirely, I'm trying to build trunk for the mac, using the make mac-app-tiles command. It builds everything but when I try to open the .app it freezes for a second and then nothing, i.e. no window is shown or anything like that. Tried deleting my Application Support/DCSS folder but no change. Can anyone help with troubleshooting this?
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Jan 29, 2016 22:26
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PleasingFungus posted:I'd argue that wands of fire/cold remained useful for considerably longer than lair. I would keep one or two around for most of the game, and I don't think that was uncommon or bad play by any means. They could be useful, but for a character with no evocations investment they drop off a lot faster. Most of the time I wouldn't carry them since I felt I had better options than using them. I was always glad to find one early on though because it was a solution to hydras and other big nasty monsters that are hard to handle as a fledgling adventurer. Do you guys really think the early game needed to be harder? Cause that's what this change results in. Draining is good but lightning and fireball suck compared to fire/cold wands.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:35
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HisMajestyBOB posted:I don't think this is a bad change. Removing the mostly useless wands is a good change. Losing Fire and Cold will be felt, but Fireball , Lamps of Fire and Vials of Floods basically take their place. Like I said, with these changes the only damage wand I will ever use will be Draining. PleasingFungus posted:i'm pretty sure there have been more posts about five wands being removed, within 24 hours of the change, than about an entire new wands-and-evocations focused god in the month or so since it was added.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:41
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I don't really mind the wand changes, because most of the time I clutter fire/cold in my inventory because they are good, but then never use them because I have better things to do most of the time. I've already been dealing with hydras pretty easily in a multitude of other ways with my recent characters.IronicDongz posted:if I'm being real with you I'm still avoiding trunk because malmutate exists, rMut still doesn't, and I don't ever want to do extended in that context I've not had much trouble in Trunk with mutations at the moment, but I've been sticking to doing 3 rune games so that may explain why I haven't hit the brick wall of frustration with them yet. Curemut is now common enough that I can count on having one in my inventory around the D:11 purple roulette, and I can usually find 1-2 more before Zot. I've even done Slime a few times, but usually as a character who could kill shining eyes quickly. It's still a bad system that needs to be adjusted however; increasing drop rates for curemut for non-mutation ignoring gods still results in it being luck-based as to whether you want to attempt Extended if you don't find enough of them (unless you are in the process of casting Fire Storm/Shatter on everything or being a lich).
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Jan 29, 2016 23:13
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At what level of necromancy would a demon trident of pain be better than the glaive of prune (+12, chop)?
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Jan 29, 2016 23:20
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Unimpressed posted:On a different note entirely, I'm trying to build trunk for the mac, using the make mac-app-tiles command. It builds everything but when I try to open the .app it freezes for a second and then nothing, i.e. no window is shown or anything like that. Tried deleting my Application Support/DCSS folder but no change. Can anyone help with troubleshooting this? OK, I've figured it out, so if anyone else is interested, you have to pass the APPLE and TILES flags even though you could have reasonably thought the build target would provide them, meaning instead of: code:code:
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Jan 30, 2016 00:01
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ThermosAquaticus posted:At what level of necromancy would a demon trident of pain be better than the glaive of prune (+12, chop)? Depends on your polearms skill, whether you want to use a shield, the enemy's negative energy resistance, etc. as well as your necromancy skill. Both can be very solid, which you prefer is up to where you're taking your character really. If you're planning on going very deep into necromancy at all, I would go for the demon trident. If you just want necromancy skill for the extra damage, the glaive is probably preferable.
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Jan 30, 2016 01:34
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Just found a goddamned eveningstar on D:4 as a Gargoyle Chaos Knight. I'd ask for bets on how I'll die, but, well, Xom. At least it's guaranteed to be interesting! E: Spider formed after I got caught out in the open by a killer bee pack, managed to escape downstairs directly into LOS of an orange crystal statue. Confused, Xom makes bee invisible, I get stung to death. Big Mad Drongo fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 01:48
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Matlock Birthmark posted:...Well I feel dumb then. I could have sworn that I've used a wand to get that effect on a Water moccasin before. It says there that freezing branded melee causes the effect. Does freezing branded ranged ammo do the same? Yep. [Don't feel silly for not having memorized that list, it's bizarre and should probably be rethought at some point.] IronicDongz posted:probably because most people haven't played with that god, myself included. if I'm being real with you I'm still avoiding trunk because malmutate exists, rMut still doesn't, and I don't ever want to do extended in that context sure. you won't talk about pak without actually playing him, which makes sense. but you'll happily complain all day about wand removals that you haven't played with! I feel like this comes off as cranky, which it's not really meant to be. it's just a reminder that the grousing : happiness ratios in this thread may not map 1:1 to 0.18's change quality.  Internet Kraken posted:They could be useful, but for a character with no evocations investment they drop off a lot faster. Most of the time I wouldn't carry them since I felt I had better options than using them. I was always glad to find one early on though because it was a solution to hydras and other big nasty monsters that are hard to handle as a fledgling adventurer. Do you guys really think the early game needed to be harder? Cause that's what this change results in. Draining is good but lightning and fireball suck compared to fire/cold wands. lightning/fball are weaker than fire/cold, yes. here are my two personal worries about the fire/cold removal: I worry that it'll make pak less cool, which would be sad for the version pak's released in. and I worry that it'll make playing a primary-melee character significantly less interesting. if those pan out to be the case, then this change would be a failure. difficulty, though? I'm not particularly concerned about that.
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Jan 30, 2016 02:06
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Given the early game is where most people struggle you probably should be. Its hard enough as it is with suboptimal combos.
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Jan 30, 2016 02:22
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It's OK to have difficulty though
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Jan 30, 2016 02:32
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PleasingFungus posted:difficulty, though? I'm not particularly concerned about that. I am. Those wands were a pretty important resource in tough situations as a caster, or for handling tough enemies as a melee guy (hydras are a notable example). This makes the game less forgiving.
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Jan 30, 2016 02:34
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Less wands means easier acquirement cheesing, anyways. Which I will continue to ignore in favour of dice rolling AAbA
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Jan 30, 2016 02:37
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PleasingFungus posted:I feel like this comes off as cranky, which it's not really meant to be. it's just a reminder that the grousing : happiness ratios in this thread may not map 1:1 to 0.18's change quality. 0.18's change quality is quite good so far! It's totally okay for people to point out individual changes that they greatly dislike and discuss why, though, just like it's okay and good to post stuff like "Pakellas turned me into zombie Batman 11/10 best new addition"! Thank you for all the hard work on this good game.
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Jan 30, 2016 02:39
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Big Mad Drongo posted:Just found a goddamned eveningstar on D:4 as a Gargoyle Chaos Knight. 
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Jan 30, 2016 02:43
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I for one really liked Pakellas, and mentioned a few times here how in favor I was of his addition. As far as wand removal goes, invisibility I miss, but I could take or leave, and I can appreciate the idea of having just one fire wand. Draining / Lightning / Fireball have more interesting differences than Fire and Cold which were practically identical. Fireball is plenty useful, I like having a zero miss evocable in my pocket to hit an area when I need to finish something off. Frost is still the odd duck remaining, and it feels weird that the cold elemental wand is strictly worse than the fire one. Maybe make it a unqiue effect, single target frozen status versus nonresistant enemies? Also, slow seems like another odd man out of wands now, since isn't it entirely inferior to paralysis? Dee Ehm fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 02:51
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So wait, weren't rings of invisibility removed in trunk too? What sources of invisibility does that leave for people without the spell? Just potions? Ugh that sucks.
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Jan 30, 2016 02:54
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And the odd randart.
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Jan 30, 2016 02:56
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resistentialism posted:And the odd randart. I feel like it's really lovely to have characters without spellcasting be explicitly penalized for that choice, especially when those are generally touted as the early starting option. Like that's openly hostile to people playing MiBe or whatever. "Invisibility is a great staple option for whatever, but you're probably not going to have it because ha ha you picked the bad class." A ring of invisibility might feel like too much to people 15-runing or whatever, but it's a pretty good addition to your toolkit when you're working on that first 3-runer. Why are we making more bad changes to make the game harder for new players?
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Jan 30, 2016 03:00
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