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Jerkface posted:Now even video games must be canon, jesus christ Wow yea, there has to be a little common sense involved in this kind of thing. There's no way anyone should give a poo poo if TFA characters were running around with OT characters in a game like Battlefront. Its a fun game but you just run around capturing flags and zapping people with lasers. For whatever reason people are able to accept this kind of thing in Lego form.
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Jan 29, 2016 20:14
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Jerkface posted:This is a ridiculous example of canon hurting entertainment & the reason why jvjvjvovjvjvovjvs are a pox If it was a narrative based videogame I'd be totally on board with that statement. That idea that games can't be subject to the same narrative rules as movies or books is a lovely one. In this context it doesn't make a great deal of sense though. Luke Skywalker didn't have a one on one fight with Vader during the Battle of Hoth either.
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Jan 29, 2016 20:14
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I reject canon and in its place recommend a fatwa system. As a learned Star Wars scholar, I decree that it is now haram to read any Star Wars work written by Kevin J Anderson for pleasure. Additionally, it is now fardh to think the prequels are good. The Force be with those who reject this fatwa, because the community of Star Wars true believers will not.
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Jan 29, 2016 20:15
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Moved straight to Star Wars takfirism eh?
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Jan 29, 2016 20:16
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It is the only way to restore peace and justice to the fandom.
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Jan 29, 2016 20:18
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Abrams, first of the Rightly Guided Directors.
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Jan 29, 2016 20:20
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:People don't like their immersion broken. It's why we'd hate to see Jon Snow using an iPad on Game of Thrones, even though "they didn't have iPads back then" is irrelevant since the show takes place in fantasy dragon land and so technically everything is possible. I wonder if anybody would get angry at something like a GoT game where you could play as the characters past the points where they died in the show/books.
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Jan 29, 2016 20:21
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That Battlefront comment is such a safe, take no chances kind of attitude, its no surprise it was made by the EA "finance chief". Its unnecessary caution though, the tiny tiny percentage of Star Wars fans who would complain about Rey running around on Hoth would never make a dent in their bottom line. 99.99% of those that bought the game would never think twice about it, or if they did it would be a positive, not a negative. The reaction of most fans would be "Oh hey cool, I can play as any character I want!"
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Jan 29, 2016 20:27
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Lord Krangdar posted:I wonder if anybody would get angry at something like a GoT game where you could play as the characters past the points where they died in the show/books. People already do get mad that the show doesn't adhere to "canon" and fret that the direction of the HBO show will divert George R.R. Martin from the "true" story that he would have written without its influence.
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Jan 29, 2016 20:28
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Jesus christ are you still talking about canon
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Jan 29, 2016 20:51
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Noam Chomsky posted:Very true, and I don't. I just like to chime in in the defense of those who do, especially since those who have spent the most time pointing out others' obsessiveness seem to be far more obsessive about their pet theories and analysis than the target of their ire is concerning things like cannon and whatnot. You are not Noam Chomsky. Noam Chomsky would not be like you. You sit upon a throne of lies. That means I hate you, and must adapt my rhetoric on-the-run in order to maintain the prime goal that has newly arisen: make you look dumb. Oh wait that would not be a very good way to have a discussion would it, if I left my actions at the whim of my emotions then I would have fallen to the dark side. “Yes, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.” Yoda These are basic ideas that arise in everyday life. Feelings such as anger, fear, and aggression, they only lead to suffering. What do we see on our TVs if we turn them to the "news" channels? We see the dark side. Look around you, look at the state of our economy, the state of equality among citizens. The elites of our nation have chosen “—the quick and easy path as Vader did —", becoming agents of evil. Luke is you. Luke is me. Luke is the common person. Not just in an "audience insert" for the sake of vicarious thrills, but he abstractly represents the struggles of you, me, everybody. He is pulled and pushed both ways, into accepting the way of using the "[...] Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.” Or into taking the dark path to power and domination. In ESB, Luke goes against the wisdom of Yoda and Obi wan, and acts recklessly, and in the end he may have destroyed any hope for the Rebellion if he had been captured by Vader. Then when Luke is calling for help in his desperate situation on the weather vane, he gets no help from anyone but Leia. Leia felt him through the Force or whatever. Luke was saved by the Force, even when he had abandoned it. We are the Force. You and I. Everything. "Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.” I interpret this as Christian Atheism. Essentially, the Force is the Holy Spirit, which resides in all of us. I do not believe in a literal Holy Spirit, but rather I follow the concept. Considering how the dark side acts as part of the Force is something more to talk about I guess.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:00
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:People don't like their immersion broken. It's why we'd hate to see Jon Snow using an iPad on Game of Thrones, even though "they didn't have iPads back then" is irrelevant since the show takes place in fantasy dragon land and so technically everything is possible. Battlefront features Palpatine hopping around on the front lines like a lightning frog.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:05
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jivjov posted:Contemporary sources would probably be better. Lucas is rather fond of revising his own statements (see: every time he was asked how many movies he was gonna make) Yeah, this is why I don't really care so much about what Lucas himself says about the Vader thing. Artists in general can lie, forget things, intentionally mislead to suit a certain narrative etc. Like half of Orson Welles' career was based on this. The simplest answer would be to just take the first movie at face value- that Darth Vader killed some other jedi named Anakin Skywalker. It certainly fits the parallels to movies such as The Searchers and even The Hidden Fortress closer than Vader being Anakin does. When you change Anakin into Vader, you completely change what these things mean into something more complex. GoGoGadgetChris posted:People don't like their immersion broken. It's why we'd hate to see Jon Snow using an iPad on Game of Thrones, even though "they didn't have iPads back then" is irrelevant since the show takes place in fantasy dragon land and so technically everything is possible. Personally I think it would be great if Game of Thrones turned into Simon of the Desert. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 21:08
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Beeez posted:This is as simply as the argument can be made, it's not about "shaming" someone for liking certain Star Wars books or whatever. That does happen among goons a lot, but in this case the argument against the EU was not that "nerds like spin-offs". Also, jivjov seems to be mistaking Canon for Continuity. These are not the same thing. Canon is a rigid adherence to continuity above all, kind of an extremist version of continuity. You can have a less rigid version of continuity, where there's a lot of small contradictions without destroying the bigger universe, and that's fine and an healthier attitude.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:18
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Steve2911 posted:If it was a narrative based videogame I'd be totally on board with that statement. That idea that games can't be subject to the same narrative rules as movies or books is a lovely one. Don't you remember this pivotal scene from Empire Strikes Back? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaYmLqFFAPI
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Jan 29, 2016 21:26
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I want to see how people who "don't like having their immersion broken" would react to watching Persona or The Holy Mountain, like would they just have a seizure or something
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Jan 29, 2016 21:28
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I want to see how people who "don't like having their immersion broken" would react to watching Persona or The Holy Mountain, like would they just have a seizure or something Persona is too loving crazy for anyone to make sense of. Great movie though. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 21:32
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:I reject canon and in its place recommend a fatwa system. Ridiculous; the Prophet Lucas himself spoke the prequels before being ascended into heaven at the Dome of Disney. A true fanatic of the Najmah Harb need only the divinely revealed films, and reject the Hadith in all its levels of canonicity. Barudak fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 21:35
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RBA Starblade posted:Don't you remember this pivotal scene from Empire Strikes Back? I'm reminded of Bambi versus Godzilla.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:39
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A question that struck me this morning: in ESB, when/how does Vader learn that Luke is his son? It's probably shown on screen at some point but I can't remember it.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:42
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:A question that struck me this morning: in ESB, when/how does Vader learn that Luke is his son? It's probably shown on screen at some point but I can't remember it. He read the holonet thread about the hero who blew up the first Laser Moon.
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Jan 29, 2016 21:45
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But Duke Dirtfarmer is
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Jan 29, 2016 21:51
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Vader knows when he skypes Palpatine in ESB and Luke is referred to the "son of skywalker".
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Jan 29, 2016 21:56
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euphronius posted:He's never said afaict that he didn't know Vader was Lukes father when he was making anh so no revision of statements. He claims he was going back and forth on it and was considering not even going through with it until he finally nailed it down in the second draft of Empire. This supposedly explains all the behind-the-scenes evidence which seems to clearly show that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader were intended to be two separate people until some time in 1978. It's really a lot more convoluted of a situation than people like the "Secret History of Star Wars" guy make it out to be. Especially given that the Darth Vader of A New Hope WAS indisputably a descendant of the cyborg father character from the original rough draft. All we know for sure is that A New Hope was definitely written with the assumption that they were indeed two separate characters. That doesn't mean it couldn't have been revealed that Darth Vader was Luke's father instead of Anakin Skywalker. It also doesn't preclude the possibility that Darth Vader was always intended to develop into a sort of dark father figure for Luke, as indeed this story note made by Lucas in a notebook (supposedly predating even the Leigh Brackett draft of Empire wherein Darth Vader is clearly NOT Anakin Skywalker) seems to suggest: The Making of Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back posted:“Somewhere the good father (Ben) watches over the child’s fate, ready to assert his power when critically needed. Father changes into Darth Vader, who is a passing manifestation, and will return triumphant. Luke travels to the end of the world and makes sacrifice to undo the spell put on his father. He succeeds and happiness is restored.” The problem is these notes are undated, so it's impossible to know exactly when this particular note was made. The funny thing is that Lucas has admitted that Darth Vader wasn't originally supposed to be Luke's father. This is presumably referring to the publicly available rough draft, in which the cyborg father and the Sith villain are unambiguously two separate characters. Lucas's claim is merely that, by the time he was filming A New Hope, Darth Vader being the father had become his preferred direction to take the story, even though he was initially reluctant to follow through on it. What Lucas does claim is that Luke and Leia were always meant to be twins, even from the very beginning. If you accept that he's talking about them being thematic "twins", not biological twins, then there's actually considerable evidence that this is how the characters were originally conceived: Annikin/Luke being the archetypal male hero, and Princess Leia being the archetypal female hero--essentially, the archetypal hero character split into two complementary halves. Some of Ralph McQuarrie's early concept sketches of Luke and Leia seem to support this idea, as they depict the two heroes as bearing an androgynous sort of visual resemblance to each other:  It's also true that Lucas later considered introducing a separate female Jedi character who would literally be Luke's twin sister, perhaps as an attempt to communicate the gender-split hero concept in a more literal and mythologically resonant way. Strangely, this is often used as evidence against the idea that Luke and Leia were supposed to be "twins", the argument being that Lucas obviously had someone else in mind before settling on Leia. But what it really shows is that the twin concept was indeed something that had always loomed large in Lucas's mind. From the very first rough draft for Star Wars onward, there had always been a prominent twin motif. Twin suns, twin princes, twin brothers, etc. And then there's the fact that the story at one point developed into being about a young girl who had to rescue her older brother from an Imperial prison. Thus, the existence of several McQuarrie concept pieces of Luke as a girl:  It was at this point that Lucas says he decided to split the hero character in two, resulting in the Luke and Leia we're familiar with. It was also at this point that the hero's older brother disappears from the narrative and is definitively replaced by Princess Leia as the captive who needs to be rescued by the hero. So instead of a hero rescuing an older brother, the story was now about a hero rescuing a princess; but the thematic relationship between the two characters remained the same. Here's how Lucas describes it: The Making of Star Wars posted:“The princess is everything Luke wants to be,” Lucas says. “She is socially conscious, whereas he is thrown into things; intellectually, she is a strong leader, and he is just a kid.” So Leia is still essentially Luke's "older brother" in the story. It's just that his "older brother" is now a beautiful princess who he's not actually biologically related to and who he'd very much like to go to town on. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jan 29, 2016 |
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Jan 29, 2016 22:00
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Who could blame the guy, really.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:03
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Jerkface posted:Now even video games must be canon, jesus christ Video game plots were held to the same canon standard as book and comic plots well before Battlefront.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:04
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jivjov posted:Video game plots were held to the same canon standard as book and comic plots well before Battlefront. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb39BV6Gs40 I don't remember Luke fighting giant mutant womprats in A New Hope
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Jan 29, 2016 22:06
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For fucks sake I wish some of you would get shot out of a canon.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:06
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Kinda crazy how the Star Wars game with the coolest plot was The Force Unleashed.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:07
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Mechafunkzilla posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb39BV6Gs40 Not quite that far back. rear end Catchcum posted:For fucks sake I wish some of you would get shot out of a canon. Cannon with two 'n's if you're talking about the projectile weapon.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:09
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Serf posted:Kinda crazy how the Star Wars game with the coolest plot was The Force Unleashed. I hate Force Unleashed with every fiber of my being.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:11
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Star Wars: The biggest anime (I love this)
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Jan 29, 2016 22:13
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MonsieurChoc posted:I hate Force Unleashed with every fiber of my being. Why? The gameplay was pretty fun, you got to see some cool Star Wars planets, and the plot was hilarious. Darth Vader and the Emperor accidentally created the Rebels. It was great.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:18
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Serf posted:Why? The gameplay was pretty fun, you got to see some cool Star Wars planets, and the plot was hilarious. Darth Vader and the Emperor accidentally created the Rebels. It was great. I tested that piece of garbage for an entire year. Gameplay was poo poo, repetitive and unfun, a poo poo-ton of bugs were never fixed, the story was garbage, and the main character was the most blandingest boring piece of poo poo ever designed for a video game, he makes the hero of Watch_Dogs look original. The only things I liked were the drunk Jedi and the killer droid, and they didn't save the game. And then the sequel was a hundred times worse. I am not being objective here, this is pure hatred.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:39
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Lt. Danger posted:*fart*   
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Jan 29, 2016 22:40
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euphronius posted:Vader knows when he skypes Palpatine in ESB and Luke is referred to the "son of skywalker". Well then I guess my question changes to 'how does Palps learn that', but I guess the answer is just 'some intel guy probably told him'.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:42
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MonsieurChoc posted:I tested that piece of garbage for an entire year. Gameplay was poo poo, repetitive and unfun, a poo poo-ton of bugs were never fixed, the story was garbage, and the main character was the most blandingest boring piece of poo poo ever designed for a video game, he makes the hero of Watch_Dogs look original. The only things I liked were the drunk Jedi and the killer droid, and they didn't save the game. And then the sequel was a hundred times worse. Maybe if I had to play it for an entire year I would hate it too. I thought it was a generally good 10 hour experience with a batshit fanfiction story. I also never played the sequel because I heard it was even shorter. Looks like I have both of them on Steam, maybe I'll play through and see if my opinion changes.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:43
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Jerkface posted:This is a ridiculous example of canon hurting entertainment & the reason why jvjvjvovjvjvovjvs are a pox You're trusting someone at EA to give a valid, knowledgeable response far more than most. The real reason Rey isn't in the game is because they didn't want to spoil her reveal as a Jedi in the movie and also because Battlefront is a lovely low-content reskin of Battlefield. It's a garbage game with less than half the content of any preceding game. Cannon isn't hurting anything in this case - industry marketing bullshit is.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:44
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SHISHKABOB posted:You are not Noam Chomsky. Noam Chomsky would not be like you. You sit upon a throne of lies. That means I hate you, and must adapt my rhetoric on-the-run in order to maintain the prime goal that has newly arisen: make you look dumb. I didn't read all those words but I'm sure you were doing your level best to say something illuminating. <3
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Jan 29, 2016 22:45
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A Star Wars Battlefront game is a Star Wars themed Battlefield clone? You don't say.
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Jan 29, 2016 22:49
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