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So, as this Tempest Fighter I just made, how do I usually go about doing my defendery stuff? The character was a Ranger who was basically an off-tank Striker via Blade Dancer, and it still has that PP now, so am I basicaly playing the same character but with slightly less damage and mark punishment?
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Jan 27, 2016 13:31
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Unknown Quantity posted:So, as this Tempest Fighter I just made, how do I usually go about doing my defendery stuff? The character was a Ranger who was basically an off-tank Striker via Blade Dancer, and it still has that PP now, so am I basicaly playing the same character but with slightly less damage and mark punishment? You probably won't notice yourself doing much different, because yea, you're still basically running around hitting dudes. You can mark any and all targets you attack (no need to hit), however your Combat Challenge is only usable once per round since it's an immediate action, at which point your marks will just be -2 to attacks vs your allies. The general idea for defending is setting up catch-22s; in the fighter's case, the enemy has a choice between trying to hit you (and hopefully failing against your higher AC) or attacking someone else and enabling you to deal more damage. This is all basically automatic aside from you having to remember marks and deciding who & when to punish with Combat Challenge. You can get some tasty combos going by messing with hybrids & multiclassing, but you'll be fine as is.
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Jan 27, 2016 13:46
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Turtlicious posted:RIP DDI. did you try ddi.wizards.com ? They took down their account management page for some inscrutable reason but they'd have to be stupider than even they've evidenced so far to not be working on bringing it back.
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Jan 27, 2016 16:14
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I've noticed the offline builder isn't displaying the website anymore. Which is good because now I don't have to close 3-4 Java error messages before I can get to work.
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Jan 27, 2016 16:31
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My Lovely Horse posted:I've noticed the offline builder isn't displaying the website anymore. Which is good because now I don't have to close 3-4 Java error messages before I can get to work. Good god finally.
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Jan 27, 2016 17:58
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Really Pants posted:What the hell is WOTC's D&D department even for anymore? Holding the IP for Hasbro.
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Jan 27, 2016 18:43
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Kurieg posted:did you try ddi.wizards.com ? They took down their account management page for some inscrutable reason but they'd have to be stupider than even they've evidenced so far to not be working on bringing it back. I did and then bitched at them over a twitter DM. It came back up like 15 minutes after that. lmao.
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Jan 27, 2016 20:16
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Any good ideas for playing a bard? Im thinking about getting short music clips ans playing them when i cast each spell. Do you stick with one instrument? Any great race combos? Nothing needs to be OP just want unique stuff.
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Jan 30, 2016 02:06
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ButtWolf posted:Any good ideas for playing a bard? Im thinking about getting short music clips ans playing them when i cast each spell. Do you stick with one instrument? Any great race combos? Nothing needs to be OP just want unique stuff. Play a Warforged Song of Cunning bard and bring one of these
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Jan 30, 2016 03:24
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ButtWolf posted:Any good ideas for playing a bard? Im thinking about getting short music clips ans playing them when i cast each spell. Do you stick with one instrument? Any great race combos? Nothing needs to be OP just want unique stuff. My favorite 4e bard build is the cunning bard as basically Phoenix Wright. Yell  every time you use Virtue of Cunning, "TAKE THAT" every time you use Staggering Note etc. MC into Sorcerer for Sorcerous Vision so you can actually detect lies with your arcane bullshit and also sets you up for the Resourceful Magician paragon path. Take the Skill Power feat to pick up the Fast Talk Utility power at level 6 and solve all of your social problems with wild bluffing. Ideal races are tiefling for the feat support, appropriate facial profile and thematic link to the premier court system in D&D:  Barring that roll an Eladrin so you can be a medium fey if not a Fey medium. Another option is to go with a valorous bard and reflavor it so you're hitting people with your instrument and being as  as possible.Or a bard who focuses on as many movement and attack-granting powers as you can and insist your party members join you in big ensemble dance numbers. Bonus points for a high Dexterity/Acrobatics check. Be a revenant and the world will know the wrath of the necrodancer. Depending on the setting, being the star of your own swinging report show is also a valid option. Alternatively, be a no-strength warlord, pick the attack granting powers, MC bard, and take the Daring Blade at Paragon to suddenly become hyper competent with a weapon. If you don't need a leader, there's also playing an enchanter mage MC bard and just going pied piper on everything.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:38
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ButtWolf posted:Any good ideas for playing a bard? Im thinking about getting short music clips ans playing them when i cast each spell. Do you stick with one instrument? Any great race combos? Nothing needs to be OP just want unique stuff. quote:Play a Warforged Song of Cunning bard and bring one of these Beatbox the Rappin' Robot (Warforged Bard) was a big hit back during the Wednesday encounters group. You can also play a bard as James Bond, where you just hit people with witty one-liners and take powers to match.
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Jan 30, 2016 03:40
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Beatbox the Rappin' Robot (Warforged Bard) was a big hit back during the Wednesday encounters group. How did you not go with Poptimus Rhyme
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Jan 30, 2016 03:49
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Clever Bard is good for rhymers and instrument players and singers, Valor bard is good for chanters and speech givers and epic poem writers, and Presciensciecnecnies Bard is good for being bad, don't make one.
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Jan 30, 2016 08:14
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My favorite bard build is the one that spams penalties to attack and psychic/charm powers to Minmay enemies into dropping their weapons and deciding they want to be your friend. Nobody has to die. Yelling "LISTEN TO MY SONG" when you roll initiative is optional but recommended.
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Jan 30, 2016 08:23
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ProfessorCirno posted:Clever Bard is good for rhymers and instrument players and singers, Valor bard is good for chanters and speech givers and epic poem writers, and Presciensciecnecnies Bard is good for being bad, don't make one. Even prescient isn't actually terrible once you get into Paragon, and there are some pretty sweet ranged weapon powers. It's REALLY hard to build a bad Bard in 4e; they have among the greatest levels of 'OMG every power I have at this level is awesome how do I choose' of any class in the game. They also have a wide range of builds, so you can do basically any concept with them that you want.
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Jan 30, 2016 08:45
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Beatbox the Rappin' Robot (Warforged Bard) was a big hit back during the Wednesday encounters group. When I think of robot bard all I can think of is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmY2wf7T428
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Jan 30, 2016 09:25
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Mendrian posted:When I think of robot bard all I can think of is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqHGi4C6gTw
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Jan 30, 2016 09:30
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thespaceinvader posted:Even prescient isn't actually terrible once you get into Paragon, and there are some pretty sweet ranged weapon powers. It's REALLY hard to build a bad Bard in 4e; they have among the greatest levels of 'OMG every power I have at this level is awesome how do I choose' of any class in the game. They also have a wide range of builds, so you can do basically any concept with them that you want. Yes but why would you be a prescient bard when instead you can be some clever rhyming motherfucker who gives a saucy wink while they jack the devil's fiddle, or some proud warrior poet who pounds their sword and shield together as they chant the great tales of epic warriors to spur their companions on??? You're a bard. Style IS substance!
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Jan 30, 2016 11:31
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Poison Mushroom posted:I can do you one better. I think you mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrqsLbdcJYo
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Jan 30, 2016 13:15
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yes but why would you be a prescient bard when instead you can be some clever rhyming motherfucker who gives a saucy wink while they jack the devil's fiddle, or some proud warrior poet who pounds their sword and shield together as they chant the great tales of epic warriors to spur their companions on??? You can do that as well. And indeed, should. It's just that you can ALSO sing of your allies' future valour so well that you actually make it happen.
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Jan 30, 2016 21:49
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So I'm pretty sure it was talked about in here before, but what are some good ways to handle conditions? One of our players seems to have a build based around locking enemies into Slow, Prone, and occasionally Stun and it's becoming pretty apparent that our GM is getting sick of it and I'd like to maybe present them with monster building advice to work around it without rendering said player's contributions useless.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:13
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Without knowing specifics, the general advice I'd say is to use more Minions. As the number of monsters on the board increases, the percentage of the entire enemy force that the Controller can inflict conditions on decreases. The Controller might then try to identify the most important target on the board, but then that's where the rest of the group dynamics come into play as the rest of the party then has to deal with the smaller fish to fry and all that that implies. On a meta level, I'd also like to mention that "being sick of it" is sort of a thing you have to get over. As long as you can A. cause enough damage that'll require the consumption of at least a single Healing Surge to earn back, and/or B. present the players with a tough enough fight that they blow a Daily power, mission accomplished. The only time I'd say the DM isn't doing their job correctly with regards to encounter creation is if the players are executing "perfect" fights on the regular where no damage is taken and only at-will and encounter powers are used.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:28
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Eopia posted:So I'm pretty sure it was talked about in here before, but what are some good ways to handle conditions? One of our players seems to have a build based around locking enemies into Slow, Prone, and occasionally Stun and it's becoming pretty apparent that our GM is getting sick of it and I'd like to maybe present them with monster building advice to work around it without rendering said player's contributions useless. The next answer is one that solves a lot of issues; make the monsters not the actual goal of the encounter, but an obstacle towards it. Video games are a great object lesson here. "Hold the line for X rounds", "protect these fleeing civilians", "get from A to B through all these obstacles in X rounds", etc.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:29
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Eopia posted:So I'm pretty sure it was talked about in here before, but what are some good ways to handle conditions? One of our players seems to have a build based around locking enemies into Slow, Prone, and occasionally Stun and it's becoming pretty apparent that our GM is getting sick of it and I'd like to maybe present them with monster building advice to work around it without rendering said player's contributions useless. Slow/prone-locking is a legit build but it has hard counters. Hit him with artillery (doesn't need to move around to hit, doesn't care about slow), soldiers (will avoid more hits), and your own controllers. Use shifting terrain hazards (and terrain in general) to make movement more challenging. Minions generally don't give a significant return for the XP investment, resulting in encounters that are too easy.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:36
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Eopia posted:So I'm pretty sure it was talked about in here before, but what are some good ways to handle conditions? One of our players seems to have a build based around locking enemies into Slow, Prone, and occasionally Stun and it's becoming pretty apparent that our GM is getting sick of it and I'd like to maybe present them with monster building advice to work around it without rendering said player's contributions useless. The player is denying actions in an action-economy centric game. There are roughly three ways of handling this: a. Allow monsters to regain their actions by throwing off the effect(s), sometimes at a cost. Commonly used on big solo enemies. b. Use things that are less reliant on actions to perform, such as auras, zones, or traps. Everyone loves interactive terrain, too. c. Introduce more actions into the economy. Most people either love or hate minions, but this is one of those situations where they are well-suited (making the DM's life less of a pain). Note that these are not mutually exclusive, and good design will likely want to incorporate elements of all three. Shifting the goal of the combat away from 'kill everything', as Poison Mushroom notes, is also a good idea.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:37
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As a DM it is not your job to have your monsters do stuff. It can get irksome, but it helps to be a fan of the players. If they stun a dude, you don't go 'aww poo poo now I don't get to do my cool thing' you go 'lol he's hosed well done'.
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Feb 4, 2016 17:51
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thespaceinvader posted:As a DM it is not your job to have your monsters do stuff. It can get irksome, but it helps to be a fan of the players. If they stun a dude, you don't go 'aww poo poo now I don't get to do my cool thing' you go 'lol he's hosed well done'. It's important to think that way, but it sure makes the game a lot more fun if you wail and gnash your teeth every time the party does something awesome.
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Feb 4, 2016 18:07
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Basically you can appear to be Dexter, but you wanna have the mindset of a Deedee.
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Feb 4, 2016 18:50
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I don't get it when DMs get frustrated by their encounters being easier than they thought. Sure it's tense and fun to get the PCs against the ropes only to have them pull it out at the last minute, and once you've tasted it you might end up chasing that high for the rest of your career - but fie, I say! That way lies disappointment and self destruction. Stop worrying and learn to love the AoE control.
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Feb 4, 2016 20:25
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I'll somewhat disagree and say that optimized controllers can often make fights really, really boring. Dishearten-spamming Psions, in particular.
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Feb 4, 2016 21:00
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See the problem then becomes that an entire aspect of the game is just cold-war-pact banned from tables. Even simply sliding people around constantly without inflicting additional effects beyond combat advantage from flanking is considered too much hassle for the board (but only if it's a Controller doing it. A Bard taxi-ing everyone around is perfectly fine.). Meanwhile if you wanted to be the "blasty" form of control where your goal is to pop a million minions and spread damage/bloodied status everywhere, that removes a very large amount of builds. There's Wizard and sub-par Druid and then that's it.
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Feb 4, 2016 21:09
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I can confirm that such a Psion was at least boring to play. I was a lot more amused with that character's laundered vampirism via Half-Elf build in conception than I was with the result.
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Feb 4, 2016 21:10
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Unknown Quantity posted:See the problem then becomes that an entire aspect of the game is just cold-war-pact banned from tables. Even simply sliding people around constantly without inflicting additional effects beyond combat advantage from flanking is considered too much hassle for the board (but only if it's a Controller doing it. A Bard taxi-ing everyone around is perfectly fine.). Meanwhile if you wanted to be the "blasty" form of control where your goal is to pop a million minions and spread damage/bloodied status everywhere, that removes a very large amount of builds. There's Wizard and sub-par Druid and then that's it. Combat should be interesting, and that means that most fights should have a degree of challenge to them. If every monster is at -7 to attacks all battle; or 1-2 characters can keep monsters stunlocked for 6 rounds at a stretch, there's not really any challenge remaining. That's a fun diversion for "we just beat Orcus without spending a healing surge" stories, but shouldn't be the norm. It's a rough tightrope to walk, no doubt. I want to (a) keep controllers as awesome and powerful as any other class, (b) keep fights moving at a nice pace, (c) keep fights challenging, and (d) maintain all those tools in my toolbox, including solos and elites.
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Feb 4, 2016 21:37
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dwarf74 posted:I'll somewhat disagree and say that optimized controllers can often make fights really, really boring. Yup. 4E's heavy emphasis on control options for everybody can get really ugly. Stunning/dominating should be less common in particular, and pushing monsters' attack bonuses out of the window of effectiveness is too easy and ultra-powerful. Frankly, well-balanced encounters where characters have to take risks and think tactically to win are much more rewarding for everyone than massacres. Massacring monsters is fun every now and then, but if it becomes the norm, the game becomes very boring. 4E is very combat-centric, the combat has to not suck.
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Feb 4, 2016 22:42
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As a player and not a DM, I despise controllers because they take all the challenge out of the fight and thusly all the fun out of it. It brings back all those 3E fighter feelings about only being along to mop up after the wizard wins the encounter with save-or-sucks.
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Feb 4, 2016 23:11
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The problem is less "this character made that fight real easy" and more "this character makes every fight real boring." I've never gotten around to enjoying the Controller role. It's entire purpose is to make fights less interesting.
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Feb 4, 2016 23:16
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It's not really a controller-specific issue, though. Strikers that nova something off the board on the first turn and/or have 0.5-1.0 KPR also trivialize the fight.
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Feb 4, 2016 23:19
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Great, now I'm real excited to see my party wreck all of my monsters. We're only level 3, but they've already got a Power of the Sun Invoker and a Greatbow Ranger.
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Feb 4, 2016 23:28
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Mecha Gojira posted:Great, now I'm real excited to see my party wreck all of my monsters. Don't be afraid to get pretty unfair by paragon. Seriously. Also, add weird conditions to the fight whenever possible. There's a reason my players joke that it's always the rooms that kill them. Skill challenges, environmental damage, traps....
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Feb 5, 2016 00:03
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Oh, yeah, traps are definitely getting thrown into my repertoire now that I kind of have a feel for the monster math and encounter XP budget. I've found I'm already using XP budgets for encounters 1-2 levels ahead of them already, though part of that is the fact that they have their free bonus feats early. I also know from talking with the DM who ran me through Paragon that I can easily, easily push that budget further once we get higher level. I'll agree, though, it can totally be the room that kills you. Walls of fire, pits of acid, electricity-rigged floor traps, and the like are always fun. I think I'll probably start throwing out more aquatic/amphibious monsters and water-filled cave dungeon tiles soon because my god do I have a lot of dungeon tiles for underground streams and lakes. Plus it's not like making up an aquatic creature doesn't just require the addition of a keyword or two on an existing monster.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:50
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