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SiGmA_X
May 3, 2004
SiGmA_X

OssiansFolly posted:

State Farm doesn't really have a General Company option. If you want to go with an online quote it sends that info to a nearby agent as soon as you buy. Keep in mind State Farm doesn't run ANY reports (including credit) for online quotes until you buy. They CAN jump the price after the fact when reports are run. Always best to call an agent to make sure you get an accurate quote.
Its been 2 years since I ran my auto quote via SF's website when I signed up for renters insurance. The fact that they don't run any reports vs my local agency actually running them would explain the big difference in price. It was something like $1,400 online and $1,000 via the agent (vs Progressive of ~$600 - same coverages of course). Numbers could be off, its been 2yrs. I found the same thing with Allstate, but even more expensive online vs at agent. Possibly for the same no-report-ran reasons?

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i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

Is there a health insurance thread? We're in Texas; my retirement-age parents were paying $300 a month for catastrophic health coverage and this month Humana raised their monthly payment to $975 with the same deductible. They're freaking out, what can I do? Humana representatives told me they're SOL and that they should enjoy their wonderful coverage.

OssiansFolly
Aug 3, 2012

Suffering at the factory of sadness every year.

SiGmA_X posted:

Its been 2 years since I ran my auto quote via SF's website when I signed up for renters insurance. The fact that they don't run any reports vs my local agency actually running them would explain the big difference in price. It was something like $1,400 online and $1,000 via the agent (vs Progressive of ~$600 - same coverages of course). Numbers could be off, its been 2yrs. I found the same thing with Allstate, but even more expensive online vs at agent. Possibly for the same no-report-ran reasons?

Most online companies don't run reports until the policy is bought. Progressive is the same way. To be honest...most companies in general now don't run reports until they know they will get the business. It costs like $15 each time an MVR/CLUE report is run, so they try and put off that cost unless they know money is coming back to them. Sucks for the customer, but smart business move for companies. Even State Farm doesn't run your driving history reports until the agent hits SUBMIT on the policy. Online policies usually use a basic credit score and stuff like that...if you have great credit then it isn't surprising to see rates drop with agent quotes.


Aliquid posted:

Is there a health insurance thread? We're in Texas; my retirement-age parents were paying $300 a month for catastrophic health coverage and this month Humana raised their monthly payment to $975 with the same deductible. They're freaking out, what can I do? Humana representatives told me they're SOL and that they should enjoy their wonderful coverage.

I mean, most of us that are agents know the health insurance game, but it has really changed over the last few years. My advice is to go to the healthcare.gov site and double/triple check numbers and coverages. They may qualify for assistance, or even a different policy with better premiums. Don't ever take the word of a captive insurance company's reps...sadly you kind of have to see many options and coverages to formulate your own theories.

SiGmA_X
May 3, 2004
SiGmA_X

OssiansFolly posted:

Most online companies don't run reports until the policy is bought. Progressive is the same way. To be honest...most companies in general now don't run reports until they know they will get the business. It costs like $15 each time an MVR/CLUE report is run, so they try and put off that cost unless they know money is coming back to them. Sucks for the customer, but smart business move for companies. Even State Farm doesn't run your driving history reports until the agent hits SUBMIT on the policy. Online policies usually use a basic credit score and stuff like that...if you have great credit then it isn't surprising to see rates drop with agent quotes.
Hummm.... Makes sense. Good to know!

moonsour
Feb 13, 2007

Ortowned

Aliquid posted:

Is there a health insurance thread? We're in Texas; my retirement-age parents were paying $300 a month for catastrophic health coverage and this month Humana raised their monthly payment to $975 with the same deductible. They're freaking out, what can I do? Humana representatives told me they're SOL and that they should enjoy their wonderful coverage.

How old are your parents exactly? If they're 65 they need to go with Medicare. I also don't believe they had an actual catastrophic plan since a person needs to almost always be under 30 to qualify for one.

The bad news is that Texas residents are completely hosed from ACA since none of the state laws/policies/etc were expanded beyond what they were legally required to do.

Also I can't officially say anything negative about a specific company, but my clients have not had good experience with Humana in general.

Health insurance has changed a lot but I was getting people signed up this year and may be able to still use some of my broker resources if you have specific questions. I'm licensed in the state of Texas.

Salsaranouth
Jul 25, 2006
ASK ME ABOUT THAT TIME I HAD A WET DREAM INVOLVING BEING A DICKGIRL AND CUMMING NEXT TO MY MALE COUSIN BECAUSE MY SEX METER REACHED MAX
So, I too am looking for health insurance but for myself and for the first time. I'll end up going to this government website, but if anyone has additional information to get a guy started, it'd be appreciated. I'm 26 and a student if it makes a difference.

OssiansFolly
Aug 3, 2012

Suffering at the factory of sadness every year.

Salsaranouth posted:

So, I too am looking for health insurance but for myself and for the first time. I'll end up going to this government website, but if anyone has additional information to get a guy started, it'd be appreciated. I'm 26 and a student if it makes a difference.

If your overall health is good (no meds, no disabilities, etc.) then the Silver plan should be good, but Gold will obviously be better if you can get away with a small office copay and prescription coverage if it is needed. I would HIGHLY recommend speaking with people locally about the provider they have and what major hospital chains accept which carrier. Pick the carrier that has the largest in network hospital chain out of ease and convenience.

moonsour
Feb 13, 2007

Ortowned

OssiansFolly posted:

If your overall health is good (no meds, no disabilities, etc.) then the Silver plan should be good, but Gold will obviously be better if you can get away with a small office copay and prescription coverage if it is needed. I would HIGHLY recommend speaking with people locally about the provider they have and what major hospital chains accept which carrier. Pick the carrier that has the largest in network hospital chain out of ease and convenience.

I slightly disagree in that if he qualifies for a tax credit a majority of silver plans should have modified options that would make it both better and more affordable than a gold. Depending on his location, Obviously.

If that's not an option then honestly bronze isn't bad if you can get it cheap. You'll still get free preventative care and you won't be out more than $6,850 in an emergency.

Salsaranouth
Jul 25, 2006
ASK ME ABOUT THAT TIME I HAD A WET DREAM INVOLVING BEING A DICKGIRL AND CUMMING NEXT TO MY MALE COUSIN BECAUSE MY SEX METER REACHED MAX
Thanks for the response. I'm actually on the step where I choose a plan now. I have been struggling between picking bronze and silver. Obviously no one ever intends to have anything serious happen to them. I don't have health issues though, and I'll probably do some basic check-in type stuff along with some tests, cleanliness type stuff.

Although, I looked through some customer satisfaction reviews/sites and it seems that all potential carriers have tons of people screaming from the rooftops about how each service is so terrible. It's really unnerving.


EDIT: Seems like the most prevalent hospitals around are affiliated with Scripps and Kaiser
EDIT X 2: And, yeah, I get a tax credit. Not sure how great it is or if it's similar for most applicable people, but most bronze plans are 55-80 and most silver plans are in the 130-160 cost range.

Salsaranouth fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jan 22, 2016

The Jizzer
Mar 19, 2003

...a man that doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man.

Salsaranouth posted:

Thanks for the response. I'm actually on the step where I choose a plan now. I have been struggling between picking bronze and silver. Obviously no one ever intends to have anything serious happen to them. I don't have health issues though, and I'll probably do some basic check-in type stuff along with some tests, cleanliness type stuff.

Although, I looked through some customer satisfaction reviews/sites and it seems that all potential carriers have tons of people screaming from the rooftops about how each service is so terrible. It's really unnerving.


EDIT: Seems like the most prevalent hospitals around are affiliated with Scripps and Kaiser
EDIT X 2: And, yeah, I get a tax credit. Not sure how great it is or if it's similar for most applicable people, but most bronze plans are 55-80 and most silver plans are in the 130-160 cost range.

Silver will give you less headaches in the future, especially if you need something like an x-ray.

Also ignore online ratings, nobody goes online to say what a pleasant interaction they had with their insurance carrier. They only go to complain. According to the internet, EVERY carrier sucks balls.

Kaiser is good, if only because their recruitment strategy is top notch and they have an excellent EHR system. There can be a good wait for specialists, though.
However, Scripps does have an excellent reputation and talent pool. Never had experience with it so I don't know how their service is.

Salsaranouth
Jul 25, 2006
ASK ME ABOUT THAT TIME I HAD A WET DREAM INVOLVING BEING A DICKGIRL AND CUMMING NEXT TO MY MALE COUSIN BECAUSE MY SEX METER REACHED MAX
Thanks a bunch! I really appreciate the input.

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

Wife's car was totaled a couple months back, other driver admitted fault. We went through our insurance to start the claim. About 2 weeks after the accident we got a check for 15k and bought a new car. Insurance is still pursuing about $500 in incidentals like rental and car seats.

Yesterday we got a letter from other party's insurance saying they only had 5k of property damage coverage and want to settle a pro-rated amount. Can I just ignore this settlement offer? I have uninsured/underinsured coverage on the policy and our limits are 50/100/50.

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

FCKGW posted:

Wife's car was totaled a couple months back, other driver admitted fault. We went through our insurance to start the claim. About 2 weeks after the accident we got a check for 15k and bought a new car. Insurance is still pursuing about $500 in incidentals like rental and car seats.

Yesterday we got a letter from other party's insurance saying they only had 5k of property damage coverage and want to settle a pro-rated amount. Can I just ignore this settlement offer? I have uninsured/underinsured coverage on the policy and our limits are 50/100/50.

Was the check for $15K from THEIR insurer or from your insurer?

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

Jastiger posted:

Was the check for $15K from THEIR insurer or from your insurer?

It was from mine. Everything has been handled through our insurance throughout the process.

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

FCKGW posted:

It was from mine. Everything has been handled through our insurance throughout the process.

Ach. Well it looks like you've got yourself a UIM claim on your record now. So you're covered, but unfortunately that dude kinda got off unless their company reimbursed yours.

As far as you though, you guys should be good.

OssiansFolly
Aug 3, 2012

Suffering at the factory of sadness every year.

FCKGW posted:

Wife's car was totaled a couple months back, other driver admitted fault. We went through our insurance to start the claim. About 2 weeks after the accident we got a check for 15k and bought a new car. Insurance is still pursuing about $500 in incidentals like rental and car seats.

Yesterday we got a letter from other party's insurance saying they only had 5k of property damage coverage and want to settle a pro-rated amount. Can I just ignore this settlement offer? I have uninsured/underinsured coverage on the policy and our limits are 50/100/50.

You have coverage, so not a huge stink. BUT, don't ignore it. Turn that letter over to YOUR insurance claims department, and notify the other insurance carrier for the at fault party that you are NOT to be contacted regarding the claim and settlement offers. Since you went through your insurance you need to let your insurance be your 'legal' advisor. They should not have gone directly to you for any kind of settlements in the case. Sounds like they tried to undermine your carrier's attempts at subrogation. Turn everything over to your carrier and only do what they advise you to do.

Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005



I doubt they were trying to go around it, probably just weren't aware OP went through their coverage. Not unusual with some slower carriers.

At any rate you'll get any difference in deductible between your collision coverage and UMPD. Your insurance company will either accept the 5k releasing the other party (most likely) or sue them directly which is not likely considering the amount they're trying to recover and the fact that someone has 5k limits they probably don't have much in the way of assets.

Alpha Mayo
Jan 15, 2007
hi how are you?
there was this racist piece of shit in your av so I fixed it
you're welcome
pay it forward~
Anyone have experience with Medicaid Buy-In for Working Adults with Disabilities?

https://www.colorado.gov/hcpf/medicaid-buy-program-working-adults-disabilities

I make too much for Medicaid or subsidies, and can't afford coverage through Exchange either because of my routine medical expenses (psychiatrist and prescriptions add up to a couple hundred each month, and a catastrophic plan on top of that would be another $200/mo). I have Bipolar Disorder, but it does not impact my ability to work and earn income so long as I am treated.

From the impression I get, this program is designed for people like me?

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless
Shoot, I genuinely don't know. That is something I do NOT have experience with :(

Alpha Mayo
Jan 15, 2007
hi how are you?
there was this racist piece of shit in your av so I fixed it
you're welcome
pay it forward~
Guess I'll apply, couldn't hurt since I don't really have any other health coverage options right now and really do not want to pay 2.5% for 2016

Ramrod Hotshot
May 30, 2003

As a 100% healthy 30 year old, I pay $230 a month for catastrophic health insurance that has a $7,000 deductible. I'm an independent contractor, so I have to pay this myself. And I'm juuuust over the level of income to qualify for a subsidy. Thanks Obama :v:. Ok, now that we've gotten that out of the way, I've got a few questions.

1. Is this the best way for me to be doing this? It seems insane to be paying $3,000 a year for the right to only pay $7,000 on the off chance I have a bad accident.

2. I was looking at travel medical insurance recently. I might be traveling for a few months, since I work remotely. Should I cancel my expensive-rear end health insurance here for the months I'm abroad and just have some travel insurance during that time?

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

Ramrod Hotshot posted:

As a 100% healthy 30 year old, I pay $230 a month for catastrophic health insurance that has a $7,000 deductible. I'm an independent contractor, so I have to pay this myself. And I'm juuuust over the level of income to qualify for a subsidy. Thanks Obama :v:. Ok, now that we've gotten that out of the way, I've got a few questions.

1. Is this the best way for me to be doing this? It seems insane to be paying $3,000 a year for the right to only pay $7,000 on the off chance I have a bad accident.

2. I was looking at travel medical insurance recently. I might be traveling for a few months, since I work remotely. Should I cancel my expensive-rear end health insurance here for the months I'm abroad and just have some travel insurance during that time?

I'd seriously go shop on the marketplace some more. That seems a bit high for that high of a deductible. I don't know what the new plans look like this year, but...thats a lot without a subsidy. In my experience anyways.

As for number 2, I don't think cancelling is a good idea. I'm pretty sure the companies penalize you if you go without insurance for any period of time. Maybe contact your provider and see if they provide any additional coverage when you're out of country.

Ramrod Hotshot
May 30, 2003

Jastiger posted:

I'd seriously go shop on the marketplace some more. That seems a bit high for that high of a deductible. I don't know what the new plans look like this year, but...thats a lot without a subsidy. In my experience anyways.

Thanks. There's not much, though - a few plans by "Ambetter" and "Coventry", with similar deductibles. The cheapest of them is $208 vs the $230 I'm paying now.

Dango Bango
Jul 26, 2007

FCKGW posted:

Yesterday we got a letter from other party's insurance saying they only had 5k of property damage coverage

:stare: Please tell me you left out a zero or something here. What state is this where it's even legal to have such a low PD limit?

SiGmA_X
May 3, 2004
SiGmA_X

Dango Bango posted:

:stare: Please tell me you left out a zero or something here. What state is this where it's even legal to have such a low PD limit?
Oregon is *progressive* and we have minimums of 20k. A new econo box costs that much, and a lot of cars on the road are worth 30-100k... Maine and Alaska are the only two states that have 'reasonable' minimums.

CA has limits as low as $3k! Crazy. http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=ins&subject=ins_req&story=state-insurance-requirements

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless
Yeah a lot of states are ridiculously low and I genuinely don't understand it. Florida has REALLY low limits and you'd think it would translate into lower premiums but its the exact opposite. Minimum coverage should be a lot higher and personally I"d rather see every state go the route of MA or NC..no insurance..no license.

Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005



Jastiger posted:

Yeah a lot of states are ridiculously low and I genuinely don't understand it. Florida has REALLY low limits and you'd think it would translate into lower premiums but its the exact opposite. Minimum coverage should be a lot higher and personally I"d rather see every state go the route of MA or NC..no insurance..no license.

The thought process behind the low limits is that having a low minimum limit means that coverage will be cheaper, and there will be less uninsured motorists on the road.

In practice it never really works because if you aren't going to pay $30/month you aren't going to pay $25 either.

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

Bovril Delight posted:

The thought process behind the low limits is that having a low minimum limit means that coverage will be cheaper, and there will be less uninsured motorists on the road.

In practice it never really works because if you aren't going to pay $30/month you aren't going to pay $25 either.

Oh yeah easily. It's so low in fl but for some reason it means more people go without its strange.

sparkmaster
Apr 1, 2010
Health insurance question:

I just signed up for health insurance through my new job. It's one of those new Consumer Directed Health Plans. As I understand it, its like an HDHP except you're given a certain fund ($1200 in my case) in a Personal Care Account through the provider up front. You use that money first, then your out of pocket cash until you meet the $2000 deductible before standard coverage kicks in. It states the deductible is $2000, but the cash I will actually pay will be $800.

Am I still eligible for an HSA under this CDHP where technically the deductible is $2,000 but the insurance company is fronting $1,200 of it?

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

sparkmaster posted:

Health insurance question:

I just signed up for health insurance through my new job. It's one of those new Consumer Directed Health Plans. As I understand it, its like an HDHP except you're given a certain fund ($1200 in my case) in a Personal Care Account through the provider up front. You use that money first, then your out of pocket cash until you meet the $2000 deductible before standard coverage kicks in. It states the deductible is $2000, but the cash I will actually pay will be $800.

Am I still eligible for an HSA under this CDHP where technically the deductible is $2,000 but the insurance company is fronting $1,200 of it?

I'm not a health insurance expert so take this with a grain of salt.

My understanding is that since the employer or provider is giving you that money up front you're not going to be eligible for an HSA since an HSA is not only a good way to pay for expenses, but is also a tax vehicle to lower your taxable income. If they are giving you "Free" money, THEY are taking the tax deduction on it, and you are not going to be able to through the HSA. You should still be able to use an FSA if that is available or itemize your medical costs, but the HSA part is not likely to be available.

As always, contact your health insurer or your accountant for a more solid answer.

sparkmaster
Apr 1, 2010

Jastiger posted:

I'm not a health insurance expert so take this with a grain of salt.

My understanding is that since the employer or provider is giving you that money up front you're not going to be eligible for an HSA since an HSA is not only a good way to pay for expenses, but is also a tax vehicle to lower your taxable income. If they are giving you "Free" money, THEY are taking the tax deduction on it, and you are not going to be able to through the HSA. You should still be able to use an FSA if that is available or itemize your medical costs, but the HSA part is not likely to be available.

As always, contact your health insurer or your accountant for a more solid answer.

Thank you for your response. If it were a traditional HSA (employer contributing X dollars up front or throughout the year to HSA), I know I could contribute the difference of $3,350 and what my job puts in. In this case, though, its like a pseudo HSA where it's not really my money, can't be invested, is held by the insurer itself, and can only be spent on medical expenses. But what exactly is the deductible in this case? Is it the total cash that has to be paid before traditional insurance benefits kick in ($2,000), or is it what I have to pay out of pocket?

I'm just wondering because I know an HSA is like a supercharged IRA, and I'd really like to take advantage of it while I'm healthy and don't need a low deductible, high benefit, low limit plan. I'll certainly check with my insurer after the paperwork gets put through, but my employer is notoriously slow moving and I'll be lucky if all the admin stuff is done by the end of the month. More curious at this point for planning purposes.

Jastiger
Oct 11, 2008

by FactsAreUseless
I don't know :(

Wickerman
Feb 26, 2007

Boom, mothafucka!

sparkmaster posted:

Thank you for your response. If it were a traditional HSA (employer contributing X dollars up front or throughout the year to HSA), I know I could contribute the difference of $3,350 and what my job puts in. In this case, though, its like a pseudo HSA where it's not really my money, can't be invested, is held by the insurer itself, and can only be spent on medical expenses. But what exactly is the deductible in this case? Is it the total cash that has to be paid before traditional insurance benefits kick in ($2,000), or is it what I have to pay out of pocket?

I'm just wondering because I know an HSA is like a supercharged IRA, and I'd really like to take advantage of it while I'm healthy and don't need a low deductible, high benefit, low limit plan. I'll certainly check with my insurer after the paperwork gets put through, but my employer is notoriously slow moving and I'll be lucky if all the admin stuff is done by the end of the month. More curious at this point for planning purposes.

In the strictest sense, a deductible is the amount of money that must be paid by the insured before their coverage kicks in. From the way that you've described your setup, it sounds like your deductible is 2k. Your employer will contribute $1200 to this 2k deductible, leaving you to fill the $800 gap before your health insurance kicks in.

I'm not sure if that reassures you, cause obviously I don't have any idea what your insurance plan is or what your papers say - I only know what you've said. But I think Jastiger is right, your employer providing the 1.2k makes you ineligible for an HSA which is tax-advantaged.

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

Dango Bango posted:

:stare: Please tell me you left out a zero or something here. What state is this where it's even legal to have such a low PD limit?

California. Lady had just switched insurance carrier the week before too :v:


OssiansFolly posted:

You have coverage, so not a huge stink. BUT, don't ignore it. Turn that letter over to YOUR insurance claims department, and notify the other insurance carrier for the at fault party that you are NOT to be contacted regarding the claim and settlement offers. Since you went through your insurance you need to let your insurance be your 'legal' advisor. They should not have gone directly to you for any kind of settlements in the case. Sounds like they tried to undermine your carrier's attempts at subrogation. Turn everything over to your carrier and only do what they advise you to do.

Turns out I did, in fact, totally ignore it and they called my wife to remind her to fill out that form. I contacted my insurance instead and will hear back from them tomorrow.

DeceasedHorse
Nov 11, 2005

sparkmaster posted:

Thank you for your response. If it were a traditional HSA (employer contributing X dollars up front or throughout the year to HSA), I know I could contribute the difference of $3,350 and what my job puts in. In this case, though, its like a pseudo HSA where it's not really my money, can't be invested, is held by the insurer itself, and can only be spent on medical expenses. But what exactly is the deductible in this case? Is it the total cash that has to be paid before traditional insurance benefits kick in ($2,000), or is it what I have to pay out of pocket?

I'm just wondering because I know an HSA is like a supercharged IRA, and I'd really like to take advantage of it while I'm healthy and don't need a low deductible, high benefit, low limit plan. I'll certainly check with my insurer after the paperwork gets put through, but my employer is notoriously slow moving and I'll be lucky if all the admin stuff is done by the end of the month. More curious at this point for planning purposes.

Federal government ?

The personal care account is better known in the insurance industry as an HRA; health reimbursement account or arrangement. Googling that term will likely produce better results, but no, you can't have an HSA and an HRA; your effective deductible is $800 in the sense that your out of pocket costs will be $800 before the traditional insurance component of the plan kicks in since the HRA pays the first 1200. Also, if you are on the plan I'm thinking of, you can carry over a certain amount of each years left over HRA money to subsequent years, although if you leave the plan or the plan is terminated the money goes away.

sparkmaster
Apr 1, 2010
Yup, feds.

What you're describing is exactly my plan. This jives with what thought initially. What you're describing makes a lot of sense. I appreciate the clarification.

DeceasedHorse
Nov 11, 2005
No problem.
I'm on the same plan and I used to work in health insurance so it makes more sense to me than it otherwise might.

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

FCKGW posted:

California. Lady had just switched insurance carrier the week before too :v:


Turns out I did, in fact, totally ignore it and they called my wife to remind her to fill out that form. I contacted my insurance instead and will hear back from them tomorrow.

Just to follow up, my coverage comes with underinsured motorist standard so I'm OK on that front.
As far as recovering personal charges of $500 for car rental, busted car seat and trailer hitch from this underinsured motorist, look like I'm either going to take the $150 pro-rated refund or try and sue for the full $500, which isn't worth my time.

LongDarkNight
Oct 25, 2010

It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.
Oven Wrangler

FCKGW posted:

Just to follow up, my coverage comes with underinsured motorist standard so I'm OK on that front.
As far as recovering personal charges of $500 for car rental, busted car seat and trailer hitch from this underinsured motorist, look like I'm either going to take the $150 pro-rated refund or try and sue for the full $500, which isn't worth my time.

As far as the car seat goes let your carrier know about the damage. They should pay to replace it under your collision coverage, it's state law.

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Literally Lewis Hamilton
Feb 22, 2005



LongDarkNight posted:

As far as the car seat goes let your carrier know about the damage. They should pay to replace it under your collision coverage, it's state law.

This.

The hitch and rental should be covered as well. Most policies have a component of covering aftermarket equipment to a certain price, $500, $1k or similar. The rental should be part of your UMPD.

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