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Jan 30, 2016 04:33
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Kim Jong Il posted:This is empirically false. Every single example I gave is abusing human rights outside of its borders, and all but Syria (who is currently incapable of projecting much abroad due to civil war) are doing so at a higher volume and severity than Israel. Israel's abuses of people outside it's borders are well documented. Consider the downing of a libyan civilian airliner during i think 1973-74 during its military adventures with egypt. Or the arresting and transfer of virtually the entire male population of Sidon and surrounding palestinian refugee camps/villages during the 1982 lebanon invasion. Consider also it's brutal treatment of both lebanese civilians and palestinians under israeli custody, before and during the push into west beirut. Consider also Operation Wrath of God, although targetted killings of suspected terrorists in a country you have no right to in isn't torture and humiliation per se but certainly illegal as gently caress. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 05:01
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I really want to understand the Israeli–Palestinian conflict better and, while I grasp the basics, I understand this issue goes much deeper than what I'm going to get from Wikipedia summaries alone. Does anybody have any resources to better understand the core of this conflict, the issues in establishing two separate states, or anything else you'd find relevant in formulating a better understanding of this issue? Thanks a lot.
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Jan 30, 2016 05:04
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Herr Shitlord posted:I really want to understand the Israeli–Palestinian conflict better and, while I grasp the basics, I understand this issue goes much deeper than what I'm going to get from Wikipedia summaries alone. Does anybody have any resources to better understand the core of this conflict, the issues in establishing two separate states, or anything else you'd find relevant in formulating a better understanding of this issue? Thanks a lot. I like rashid khalidi's the iron cage for a broad look at how the current situation developed. Theres lots others that might be more up to date though
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Jan 30, 2016 06:36
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Real hurthling! posted:I like rashid khalidi's the iron cage for a broad look at how the current situation developed. Theres lots others that might be more up to date though Or if you want an actually good suggestion read 'Righteous Victims' by Benny Morris instead of anything by Khalidi.
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Jan 30, 2016 06:50
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There were a couple really good suggestions some users listed earlier in the thread Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Norman Finkelstein Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky The Question of Palestine by Edward Said, also Orientialism was really good at helping understand some things, like how the media is used to frame the narrative around a certain set of well-established tropes about the middle east that go unchallenged to this day. Team Overhead Smash or Main Paineframe had some really good suggestions too that I can't remember.
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Jan 30, 2016 07:01
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The Insect Court posted:Or if you want an actually good suggestion read 'Righteous Victims' by Benny Morris instead of anything by Khalidi. This guy is hilarious. Jews have been victimized in the past therefore anything terrible they do now is justified because in the long historical run jews will have been treated worse. gently caress Benny Morris.
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Jan 30, 2016 07:38
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Herr Shitlord posted:I really want to understand the Israeli–Palestinian conflict better and, while I grasp the basics, I understand this issue goes much deeper than what I'm going to get from Wikipedia summaries alone. Does anybody have any resources to better understand the core of this conflict, the issues in establishing two separate states, or anything else you'd find relevant in formulating a better understanding of this issue? Thanks a lot. Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Norman Finkelstein a suggested previously is a pro-buy that deals with a lot of false claims and beliefs you may come across if you start reading into the conflict and comprehensively dismantles them, often showing how the source material of other authors making these claims was distorted, fabricated or plagiarised. I also feel for him because his personal beliefs and integrity really killed his academic career. It'll also give you a decent overview of some key points conflict just because the process of tearing apart all the fictional beliefs will involve showing what the actual realistic approach is To understand the issues in establishing two separate states, you might want to look at either one of two books focusing on the de facto deaththroes of the peace process in the late 1990's/early 2000's, Shattered Dreams by Charles Enderlin or Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David. These deal with an inside look at the negotiations of land, return of refugees, the status of East Jerusalem, etc and where the two sides found common ground and where they found differences. However one thing of note is that these deal with the problems with establishing two different states in the context of two sides at least willing to attempt to see an accord reached. For the last decade that will has basically disappeared and the issue in establishing two states is that there isn't the political will from both sides to attempt to find a solution and I haven't noticed any good books focusing on that as an issue because it's something I'm aware of just from general reading on the subject, keeping abreast of events, etc. In fact while there are a few books which go up to the early 2000's in terms of more general history like The Iron Wall by Avi Shlaim, I'm not sure if there are any that go into 2010+ area, unless there are new editions I haven't seen. I'd also advise googling and reading at least the summary of the UN Goldstone report on Operation Protective edge, as well as flicking through the full document. It'll give you an idea of what the issues are with how both sides conduct war and the war crimes both sides are guilty of. For the oppression which happens in peace time, I'd recommend Palestine: Inside Out which looks at the daily oppression faced those in the occupied territories and allows you to empathise a good deal. Edit: Also I remembered an old OP had a link to a post of book recommendations. Reading it I would also back the recommendations for Palestine Inside Out: An Everyday Occupation, Lords of the Land: The War Over Israel's Settlements in the Occupied Territories, 1967-2007 and A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East. The Easy Rider posted:For an in-depth debunking of the common claim that "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity", and that they walked away from an offer for a Palestinian state, Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David is a good read, compiling a number of interviews with insiders in the negotiations. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 11:57
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team overhead smash posted:However one thing of note is that these deal with the problems with establishing two different states in the context of two sides at least willing to attempt to see an accord reached. For the last decade that will has basically disappeared and the issue in establishing two states is that there isn't the political will from both sides to attempt to find a solution and I haven't noticed any good books focusing on that as an issue because it's something I'm aware of just from general reading on the subject, keeping abreast of events, etc. In fact while there are a few books which go up to the early 2000's in terms of more general history like The Iron Wall by Avi Shlaim, I'm not sure if there are any that go into 2010+ area, unless there are new editions I haven't seen. This is probably *the* book for a better understanding of the issues that the requesting poster brought up. A lot of the other recommendations are pretty peripheral.
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Jan 30, 2016 14:16
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The Insect Court posted:Or if you want an actually good suggestion read 'Righteous Victims' by Benny Morris instead of anything by Khalidi. I'm not going to disagree with this, reading stuff from the Israeli New Historians is a good way to understand the twisted perspective of many Israelis/radical zionists. However New Historians still present an incredibly biased view of the conflict's history, since they rely almost exclusively on Israeli sources for building their arguments (which many of them will acknowledge). The Question of Palestine is definitely good, but obviously isn't up to date.
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Jan 30, 2016 14:22
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ANIME AKBAR posted:I'm not going to disagree with this, reading stuff from the Israeli New Historians is a good way to understand the twisted perspective of many Israelis/radical zionists. However New Historians still present an incredibly biased view of the conflict's history, since they rely almost exclusively on Israeli sources for building their arguments (which many of them will acknowledge). I think it's a requirement that if you're going to suggest Morris to anyone you have to recommend The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947—1949 first which is to be read and then immediately followed up by Finkelstein's Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict so that they know exactly how many massive grains of salt to take Morris's conclusions and arguements with in future.
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Jan 30, 2016 14:28
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Kim Jong Il posted:You very well know the idea of Palestinian nationalism is extremely controversial among Arabs/Muslims in Israel, and many groups such as the Druze would largely virulently disagree with you on this. Druze are a tiny minority, the majority of Druze in Israel consider themselves to be Syrian, we're talking about less than 5% of the Israeli-Arab population here. The fact is that poll after poll shows that "Israeli-arabs" of Palestinian descendent consider themselves to be ethnically palestinian. It's not extremely controversial under any possible definition of either 'extremely' or 'controversial', they themselves consider themselves to be Palestinians and they are considered to be palestinians by the palestinians themselves and the entire arab world
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Jan 30, 2016 15:53
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Following up on the book recommendations...two of my younger brothers are going to Israel on Birthright in a couple months. I'd like to recommend them a book to read beforehand, to help them keep an open mind. To be realistic, though, they're not going to read a book. Any good documentaries or videos that I could recommend instead? For context, a few years ago I went on Birthright (with my then-fiancee) and we had a negative experience overall (and not just for political reasons, our tour guide was kind of a dick and the logistics were bungled in every way--running out of food at dinner before everyone was served, for example) . Anyways, we were already somewhat educated about the situation, had been reading this thread for years, etc. We were also able to visit the West Bank afterward and stay with a Palestinian family while getting toured around, which was an amazing experience (can't recommend Green Olive Tours enough). My brothers won't have time to do this so I want to give them some background going in, on the chance that they don't get a complete picture (and I'm told that some tour guides handle the conflict fairly well, although I can tell you that some do not). While I'm here I'll tell a story from our trip. On the last day, we did this awful exercise where the trip leader would make a statement and would have to stand in one of four places for Strongly Agree, Agree, Disagree, or Strongly Disagree. Statements like "Israel is an import part of my Jewish identity", "The deepest expression of Jewishness is to make aliyah", "the IDF makes me feel safe anywhere in the world", "I have an obligation to marry Jewish", etc. Once everyone got into positions, someone from each group had to defend their choice. For pretty much all of these, my wife and I were alone in the Strongly Disagree camp. So every time it was one of us having to argue the unpopular opinion. Luckily the tour guide was staying out of it but everyone else had eaten up the message so it devolved into an us vs. everyone else debate. The "best" part was on the issue of marrying Jewish. Everyone else was in Agree or Strongly Agree, and they seemed to think it was the most incredible thing that we didn't place any importance on marring Jewish but were doing it anyway. We did convince one guy to move from Agree to Disagree, though, so I guess we explained ourselves well enough. I should mention that friends of ours have described very different experiences with Birthright, but I'm not sure which experience is more common.
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Jan 30, 2016 17:55
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SurgicalOntologist posted:While I'm here I'll tell a story from our trip. On the last day, we did this awful exercise where the trip leader would make a statement and would have to stand in one of four places for Strongly Agree, Agree, Disagree, or Strongly Disagree. Statements like "Israel is an import part of my Jewish identity", "The deepest expression of Jewishness is to make aliyah", "the IDF makes me feel safe anywhere in the world", "I have an obligation to marry Jewish", etc. Once everyone got into positions, someone from each group had to defend their choice. Urgh. Using peer pressure and cowardice to entice everyone to side with the most jingoistic options.
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Jan 30, 2016 18:19
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Ultramega posted:Israel's abuses of people outside it's borders are well documented. Consider the downing of a libyan civilian airliner during i think 1973-74 during its military adventures with egypt. Or the arresting and transfer of virtually the entire male population of Sidon and surrounding palestinian refugee camps/villages during the 1982 lebanon invasion. Consider also it's brutal treatment of both lebanese civilians and palestinians under israeli custody, before and during the push into west beirut. Consider also Operation Wrath of God, although targetted killings of suspected terrorists in a country you have no right to in isn't torture and humiliation per se but certainly illegal as gently caress. That's not what's being disputed. He was saying that while Russia, Saudi Arabia, etc... are horrific human rights abusers, they keep it within their borders which is demonstrably false. emanresu tnuocca posted:Druze are a tiny minority, the majority of Druze in Israel consider themselves to be Syrian, we're talking about less than 5% of the Israeli-Arab population here. And just like that you handwave away the Bedouin who don't fall under this classification. SurgicalOntologist posted:
While loyalty to Israel is an important objective for Birthright, it's massively, massively secondary to the intermarriage part. This basically applies to every other Jewish organization like Hillel, etc... Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jan 30, 2016 |
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Jan 30, 2016 18:23
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SurgicalOntologist posted:Following up on the book recommendations...two of my younger brothers are going to Israel on Birthright in a couple months. I'd like to recommend them a book to read beforehand, to help them keep an open mind. To be realistic, though, they're not going to read a book. Any good documentaries or videos that I could recommend instead? I don't know about documentaries or videos because books rule and are awesome so that's what I care about, but if you do end up going with a book I'd maybe recommend Palestine: Inside Out which I mentioned aboce because it doesn't involve a lot of the topics which might get them instantly on the defensive (ethnic cleansing, killing thousands of Palestinian civilians) and refuse to engage further, but it highlights the plight of the occupied Palestinians in a way which would make it almost impossible for someone with a concious to wholly buy into the narrative that Israel pushes. I quoted parts of it a few months ago in the thread: quote:Nowhere is the vulnerability of Palestinian inner spaces more visible than in the city of Hebron, the largest city in the southern West Bank, and, other than East Jerusalem, the only one with an active Jewish settler presence inside city limits. The Jewish settlers of Hebron have made life virtually impossible for the city's Palestinian population, again, the settlers are heavily defended by a formidable Israeli army and police presence (10 soldiers for every settler), whereas the city's palestinians have no defenses and no real legal protection from settler intrusions. quote:The violent harassment of Palestinians intrudes directly into their homes. Maryam al-Natsheh, a mother of six children, recalls an incident when Israelis from a nearby settlement crept into her house in Hebron: quote:[A] couple of dozen yards farther along, the Jewish settlement could be seen looming overhead, in formerly Palestinian homes.
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Jan 30, 2016 18:30
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Looks like I've got a good bit of reading to do. Thanks a ton for the resources, y'all.
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Jan 31, 2016 00:01
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team overhead smash posted:Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Norman Finkelstein a suggested previously is a pro-buy that deals with a lot of false claims and beliefs you may come across if you start reading into the conflict and comprehensively dismantles them, often showing how the source material of other authors making these claims was distorted, fabricated or plagiarised. I also feel for him because his personal beliefs and integrity really killed his academic career. It'll also give you a decent overview of some key points conflict just because the process of tearing apart all the fictional beliefs will involve showing what the actual realistic approach is I changed my mind. Khalidi's work has some glaringly obvious biases and flaws, as well as some real head scratchers(gay rights are an insidious western plot, etc.) but he's a serious scholar. Recommending Norman Finkelstein to someone who wants to obtain a basic grounding in the history of the I/P conflict is like telling someone interested in the history of Reconstruction to just watch Birth of a Nation a few times. It's difficult to believe that even a fanatic thinks it's a sensible, unbiased look at the issue. If you're going to recommend a polemic in an attempt to proselytize, you should have the honesty to say that's what you're doing. But I should be encouraged the recommendations weren't just electronic intifada and Institute for Historical Review links. I suppose that's an improvement, of sorts. Nevvy Z posted:This guy is hilarious. Jews have been victimized in the past therefore anything terrible they do now is justified because in the long historical run jews will have been treated worse. Is it possible this is as stupid as it appears to be? Do you understand that the title of the book is not an endorsement of the idea that Jews were simply 'righteous victims' in 1947? Your posts have all been useless one-liners which indicate a more than usually complete ignorance of the subject, so I worry it is.
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Jan 31, 2016 06:32
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SurgicalOntologist posted:Following up on the book recommendations...two of my younger brothers are going to Israel on Birthright in a couple months. I'd like to recommend them a book to read beforehand, to help them keep an open mind. To be realistic, though, they're not going to read a book. Any good documentaries or videos that I could recommend instead? I think Roadmap to Apartheid is probably one of the best documentaries on the I/P conflict (with a huge focus on the apartheid 'comparison' and the injustices Palestinians have to live with in daily life both in areas under Israeli control and Israel itself) if you really want something other than a book. Gorgo Primus fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Jan 31, 2016 |
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Jan 31, 2016 08:19
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The Insect Court posted:Recommending Norman Finkelstein to someone who wants to obtain a basic grounding in the history of the I/P conflict is like telling someone interested in the history of Reconstruction to just watch Birth of a Nation a few times. It's difficult to believe that even a fanatic thinks it's a sensible, unbiased look at the issue.  I don't think you actually read this thread.
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Jan 31, 2016 10:35
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The Insect Court posted:I changed my mind. Khalidi's work has some glaringly obvious biases and flaws, as well as some real head scratchers(gay rights are an insidious western plot, etc.) but he's a serious scholar. Recommending Norman Finkelstein to someone who wants to obtain a basic grounding in the history of the I/P conflict is like telling someone interested in the history of Reconstruction to just watch Birth of a Nation a few times. It's difficult to believe that even a fanatic thinks it's a sensible, unbiased look at the issue. If you're going to recommend a polemic in an attempt to proselytize, you should have the honesty to say that's what you're doing. What's does birth of a nation and norman finkelstein's book have in common?
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Jan 31, 2016 10:45
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Nevvy Z posted:This guy is hilarious. Jews have been victimized in the past therefore anything terrible they do now is justified because in the long historical run jews will have been treated worse. I refuse to believe that someone would write a book saying this, it's something a child would think up.
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Jan 31, 2016 10:48
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The Insect Court posted:I changed my mind. Khalidi's work has some glaringly obvious biases and flaws, as well as some real head scratchers(gay rights are an insidious western plot, etc.) but he's a serious scholar. Recommending Norman Finkelstein to someone who wants to obtain a basic grounding in the history of the I/P conflict is like telling someone interested in the history of Reconstruction to just watch Birth of a Nation a few times. It's difficult to believe that even a fanatic thinks it's a sensible, unbiased look at the issue. If you're going to recommend a polemic in an attempt to proselytize, you should have the honesty to say that's what you're doing. Yo man usually I'm down with whatever brand of soft trolling you're unleashing upon this thread but layoff Norm, Image and Reality is a perfectly valid source on the conflict and in fact from my experience it's actually very balanced. Norm is largely misunderstood and is presented as this sort of antisemitic monster but it's very far from the truth, I think he did some wrong and stupid poo poo like meeting with Hezbollah which really hurt his reputation but his scholarly work is usually impeccable. Image and Reality is a fantastic review of several famous pro-zionist works and a deconstruction of the perspectives they provide, I don't really see what's wrong with the book. Did you actually read it? Or anything Norman actually wrote? I think you have the wrong impression of the guy. I thought you'd like him if only for him turning his back on the BDS movement.
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Jan 31, 2016 11:25
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The Insect Court posted:I changed my mind. Khalidi's work has some glaringly obvious biases and flaws, as well as some real head scratchers(gay rights are an insidious western plot, etc.) but he's a serious scholar. Recommending Norman Finkelstein to someone who wants to obtain a basic grounding in the history of the I/P conflict is like telling someone interested in the history of Reconstruction to just watch Birth of a Nation a few times. It's difficult to believe that even a fanatic thinks it's a sensible, unbiased look at the issue. If you're going to recommend a polemic in an attempt to proselytize, you should have the honesty to say that's what you're doing. Do you have any actual substance to your complaint that you would like to share with the rest of us, referencing a paticular Finkelstein book and explaining what your issues are? If not then stop whining just because a book got recommended which gives no shits about calling zionist writers out on their distortions. Image and Reality is not just a great book to recommend to someone looking to learn about some core details of the conflict (as it covers critical events and ideas) but is also a great book to stand as a example of a critical analysis and scholarly takedown of the work of others, seeing as the format of the book is to get to the truth by showing how some Zionist writers have distorted events massively. Hell, I know that at least one book you recommended earlier in this thread a few months ago (Six Day War) is shown to be a fairly large load of poo poo in the updated versions of Image and Reality. quote:Is it possible this is as stupid as it appears to be? Do you understand that the title of the book is not an endorsement of the idea that Jews were simply 'righteous victims' in 1947? Your posts have all been useless one-liners which indicate a more than usually complete ignorance of the subject, so I worry it is. Morris is fairly famous as the guy who found a load of new heinous stuff in the Israeli archives like explicit orders to go around murdering arabs in the 1948 war and whose response was "Well sure, this is bad, but did Israel really plan ethnic cleansing or did the ethnic cleansing just happen by accident? Whatever, doesn't really matter, because it was a necessary thing to do". drilldo squirt posted:I refuse to believe that someone would write a book saying this, it's something a child would think up. As far as I know Benny Morris's stance is not quite that. Instead he is a war crime apologist who admits that Israel commits war crimes but defends these and says it is justified to do so, in fact going further and saying they should have committed more and fully ethnically cleansed the Palestinians in 1948 so there would be no problem with them in the future. He justifies this because the Arabs are bad and hate Israel so these war crimes are all self-defence (Despite them being unjustifiable war crimes, internationally agreed as having no reason to ever be carried out). It's pretty easy to see why TIC likes him. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Jan 31, 2016 |
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Jan 31, 2016 11:32
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Tic doesn't like that other groups of people live in Israel and blames them for the injustices his people carry out to get them to leave, shocking.
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Jan 31, 2016 11:37
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080607060238/http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380984quote:A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on. quote:That is correct. Even the great American democracy could not have been created without the annihilation of the Indians. There are cases in which the overall, final good justifies harsh and cruel acts that are committed in the course of history. like this could literally be a nazi discussing lebensraum in eastern europe
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Jan 31, 2016 13:40
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How much work would it be to replace all the Palestinians with Jews and Jewish state with third Reich in that book? I can see many good things coming from doing that.
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Jan 31, 2016 14:08
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XMNN posted:lol his account is probably extremely neutral and unbiased Basically the one thing Benny Morris ever did that was worthwhile was being the first one to get into previously classified Israeli archives just after they allowed access to a load of new documents and being the first to find massive amounts of new info into how Israel acted in the war of independence and the Nakhba. The documents put Israel in a very bad light and destroyed what had been the narrative of the time of Palestinians fleeing through no provocation from Israel. He then went and ruined it by proceeding to try and whitewash and justify all the new stuff he'd found and create a narrative that was as close as possible to the one he'd destroyed.
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Jan 31, 2016 14:13
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ANIME AKBAR posted:Israel sprays herbicide on Gaza farmland because seriously do you even have to loving ask. So, now so they finally think it was worth it to have shot all those rockets? At what point will the thing happen that makes all the rockets and tunnels and stuff worth it?
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Jan 31, 2016 14:16
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XMNN posted:https://web.archive.org/web/20080607060238/http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380984 The fact is, we did displace and in many cases annihilate the indigenous population of North America in order to create the USA. It puts us in a rather weak position to condemn Israel for doing something similar. At the end of the day we justify the existence of the United States because it is a fait accompli. We won and it's ours. The Arabs lost their wars with Israel. It sucks for them but that's how all the land in the world was divided up, in all times and places, going back to prehistory. The Jews just have better reasons for doing it than most people.
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Jan 31, 2016 14:20
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I'm not sure the existence of the USA makes the genocide of the Native Americans particularly morally defensible.
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Jan 31, 2016 14:22
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hakimashou posted:
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Jan 31, 2016 14:26
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hakimashou posted:So, now so they finally think it was worth it to have shot all those rockets? I don't see how ruining crops for farmers hurts the people that shot the rockets. Can you explain? Personally, I don't see any reason to do that if your goal is to stop rocket attacks. drilldo squirt fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Jan 31, 2016 |
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Jan 31, 2016 14:29
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The Pro-Israeli mindset: "Might makes right, evil acts are good as long as we come out on top, crimes that were committed in the past mean that there is a moral duty to commit crimes in the present."drilldo squirt posted:I don't see how ruining crops for farmers hurts the people that shot the rockets. Can you explain? Personal I don't see any reason to do that if your goal is to stop rocket attacks. All Palestinians are the same, they have a hivemind. That's why it is always justified and necessary to murder some Palestinian -- there's no such thing as an innocent Palestinian, a child playing on the beach is just a part of the same collective organism that shoots rockets that go nowhere. drilldo squirt posted:No they don't. Yes, they do. They are God's chosen people, and God has tasked them with eradicating every other nation on Earth, sparing not the women, not the children, not the cattle. (A cow that belongs to a Palestinian is also part of the Palestinian hivemind.) As you know, it is always valid and acceptable to murder people in the name of God. Massacring an entire town's population because they are not the same religion as you is a Just and Worthy thing to do. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jan 31, 2016 |
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Jan 31, 2016 14:34
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Cat Mattress posted:Yes, they do. They are God's chosen people, and God has tasked them with eradicating every other nation on Earth, sparing not the women, not the children, not the cattle. (A cow that belongs to a Palestinian is also part of the Palestinian hivemind.) I'm pretty sure Israel doesn't plan on eradicating every other nation on earth, friend.
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Jan 31, 2016 14:48
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Bibi maybe, but that dude is a nutter. edit: I just realized that I was talking about Netanyahu. drilldo squirt fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jan 31, 2016 |
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Jan 31, 2016 14:48
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Bibi is relatively sane, he's just a very dedicated liar.
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Jan 31, 2016 14:49
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I know, it was a joke, but I''m still pissed he and the republicans had the gall to pull that congressional speech fiasco.
drilldo squirt fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jan 31, 2016 |
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Jan 31, 2016 14:53
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drilldo squirt posted:I don't see how ruining crops for farmers hurts the people that shot the rockets. Can you explain? Personally, I don't see any reason to do that if your goal is to stop rocket attacks. The guys firing rockets are Gazan Palestinians. Gaza is crowded, polluted, and has very little farmable land. Blockading the Gazans and destroying their farms significantly increases the odds that they all starve to death, and 'all', naturally, includes the ones firing rockets. There is a certain brutal, insane logic to it.
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Jan 31, 2016 15:00
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hakimashou posted:The fact is, we did displace and in many cases annihilate the indigenous population of North America in order to create the USA. It puts us in a rather weak position to condemn Israel for doing something similar. Israel has a worse reason. The basic rationale is the same "I'm here, weaker people are there and I want their land" but America was doing it in the 19th century when there were no international laws against ethnically cleansing and there were no basic human rights enshrined for all people. Besides, even if they were the same that would hardly make either case right - it would just highlight how unacceptable the USA's actions were but how they managed to get away with them at the time.
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Jan 31, 2016 15:32
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