Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

ehhhhhhnnnnnn: Jun 3, 2008; Can't post for 3 years!

hakimashou posted:

The fact is, we did displace and in many cases annihilate the indigenous population of North America in order to create the USA. It puts us in a rather weak position to condemn Israel for doing something similar.

At the end of the day we justify the existence of the United States because it is a fait accompli. We won and it's ours.

The Arabs lost their wars with Israel. It sucks for them but that's how all the land in the world was divided up, in all times and places, going back to prehistory.

The Jews just have better reasons for doing it than most people.

Congratulation you're a fascist

# ? Jan 31, 2016 15:50

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# ? May 15, 2024 02:43

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

hakimashou posted:

The fact is, we did displace and in many cases annihilate the indigenous population of North America in order to create the USA. It puts us in a rather weak position to condemn Israel for doing something similar.

At the end of the day we justify the existence of the United States because it is a fait accompli. We won and it's ours.

The Arabs lost their wars with Israel. It sucks for them but that's how all the land in the world was divided up, in all times and places, going back to prehistory.

The Jews just have better reasons for doing it than most people.

For the sake of moral consistency, how would you respond to the following scenarios:

A) A European nation is committing the Holocaust and invading neighboring nations. Should the US declare war and/or otherwise interfere?
B) Israel loses "its war with the Arabs." They're subjected to colonial-era conditions, slavery and all the things Americans aren't allowed to criticize. What, if anything, should be done in response?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:09

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

team overhead smash posted:

Israel has a worse reason. The basic rationale is the same "I'm here, weaker people are there and I want their land" but America was doing it in the 19th century when there were no international laws against ethnically cleansing and there were no basic human rights enshrined for all people.

Besides, even if they were the same that would hardly make either case right - it would just highlight how unacceptable the USA's actions were but how they managed to get away with them at the time.

Well, the American reason was that there was some land and we wanted it so we could have more land.

The Jews' reason was that after suffering centuries of oppression and persecution and murder and narrowly escaping being deliberately and systematically exterminated by the people who wrote the international laws and stuff you talk about, they had a chance to claim a little bit of land for themselves, land their ancient forebears had been driven from, and to build for themselves an unassailable fortress there where for the first time in ten or more centuries their people could be sure of their safety.

I can see how if you ignore all the specifics you might think America and Israel had the same reasons, or that Israel's reasons are worse than America's, but I can't see any other way.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:12

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

I find it strange for someone who supports Israel to argue that any nation has the right to do whatever it wants to the minorities in its nation, and the surrounding ones as well, so long as it has the military capacity to carry out its goals.

hakimashou posted:

So, now so they finally think it was worth it to have shot all those rockets?

At what point will the thing happen that makes all the rockets and tunnels and stuff worth it?

Do you have a source for this? It would be really big news that the farms that were gassed were actually owned by people who fired the rockets, and none of the articles I've found suggest that's that case. Do you have some other source, or does the actions of some Arabs justify racist action against all Arabs?

Again, another thing I find very confusing for a supporter of Israel to say. Do you support Israel, or is it just death you're interested in?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:15

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

hakimashou posted:

Well, the American reason was that there was some land and we wanted it so we could have more land.

The Jews' reason was that after suffering centuries of oppression and persecution and murder and narrowly escaping being deliberately and systematically exterminated by the people who wrote the international laws and stuff you talk about, they had a chance to claim a little bit of land for themselves, land their ancient forebears had been driven from, and to build for themselves an unassailable fortress there where for the first time in ten or more centuries their people could be sure of their safety.

I can see how if you ignore all the specifics you might think America and Israel had the same reasons, or that Israel's reasons are worse than America's, but I can't see any other way.

I disagree with your postulation that suffering centuries of oppression and persecution makes it ok for you to commit those same acts on the people that were living where ancient Israel used to be. Furthermore, at the time of manifest destiny society operated by different rules that we now see as barbaric, linking the two events is a mistake in my opinion. This all comes off as a justification for doing something you already want to do, and it's obviously something you know is wrong.

drilldo squirt fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jan 31, 2016

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:16

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

drilldo squirt posted:

I don't see how ruining crops for farmers hurts the people that shot the rockets. Can you explain? Personally, I don't see any reason to do that if your goal is to stop rocket attacks.

I don't know the rationale, but it would make sense to render certain areas where you had established a buffer or "no go" zone useless for farming so you could prevent farmers from using it.

With farmers having no reason to be there, you'd reduce the number of plausible and legitimate reasons for anyone to be there, and that would make it more likely that people who were there had some nefarious purpose.

So, say the Gazans start firing rockets again, and you decide to start enforcing your buffer zone aggressively, and firing on people who enter it, you're less likely to be firing at noncombatants like farmers, since farmers wouldn't be there anymore since you'd rendered the area unsuitable for farming.

The idea, I imagine, is to cause the area to be unsuitable for any use that might otherwise entice people to enter it and take their chances. This means in the event hostilities resume, there isn't a noncombatant population for malefactors to hide amongst or martyr for publicity.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:20

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

hakimashou posted:

I don't know the rationale, but it would make sense to render certain areas where you had established a buffer or "no go" zone useless for farming so you could prevent farmers from using it.

With farmers having no reason to be there, you'd reduce the number of plausible and legitimate reasons for anyone to be there, and that would make it more likely that people who were there had some nefarious purpose.

So, say the Gazans start firing rockets again, and you decide to start enforcing your buffer zone aggressively, and firing on people who enter it, you're less likely to be firing at noncombatants like farmers, since farmers wouldn't be there anymore since you'd rendered the area unsuitable for farming.

The idea, I imagine, is to cause the area to be unsuitable for any use that might otherwise entice people to enter it and take their chances. This means in the event hostilities resume, there isn't a noncombatant population for malefactors to hide amongst or martyr for publicity.

Then why did they wait till now, also, how did that farmland end up in a no go zone?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:22

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

hakimashou posted:

So, now so they finally think it was worth it to have shot all those rockets?

At what point will the thing happen that makes all the rockets and tunnels and stuff worth it?

Just a reminder of what you said, it makes me think you are not being honest with why you think they poisoned all those crops.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:24

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

drilldo squirt posted:

I disagree with your postulation that suffering centuries of oppression and persecution makes it ok for you to commit those same acts on the people that were living where ancient Israel used to be. Furthermore, at the time of manifest destiny society operated by different rules that we now see as barbaric, linking the two events is a mistake in my opinion. This all comes off as a justification for doing something you already want to do, and it's obviously something you know is wrong.

Well, for one thing, narrowly avoiding extermination and suffering all that horror for so long might cause people to belive, after having lost so many friends and loved ones, "this proves that it really is us or them and we can be sure our very survival is really at stake."

In which case it's hard to blame people for choosing "us" over "them."

I think you'll find a lot of people, when it comes down to it, would rather do something that might be wrong than die and have their friends and family and all their people die too.

I mean, it's bad to do things that are wrong, but it's worse to be exterminated, and if the Jewish experience with Europeans taught them anything, it's that extermination is a real thing that is actually done to them and not just an idea or abstraction.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:27

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

drilldo squirt posted:

Just a reminder of what you said, it makes me think you are not being honest with why you think they poisoned all those crops.

Really?

See, I figure there is a connection between the rocket and tunnel attacks and Israel and Gaza becoming more suspicious of each other and less trusting and less willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Say that during the summer of rockets things had gone differently, that instead of attacking Israel, Gazans had chosen to disarm and take action to be less of a threat rather than more of a threat.

Do you see, drilldo squirt, how making that choice might have made Israel less inclined rather than more inclined to do things like aggressively assert buffer zones along the border?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:31

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

hakimashou posted:

Well, the American reason was that there was some land and we wanted it so we could have more land.

The Jews' reason was that after suffering centuries of oppression and persecution and murder and narrowly escaping being deliberately and systematically exterminated by the people who wrote the international laws and stuff you talk about, they had a chance to claim a little bit of land for themselves, land their ancient forebears had been driven from, and to build for themselves an unassailable fortress there where for the first time in ten or more centuries their people could be sure of their safety.

I can see how if you ignore all the specifics you might think America and Israel had the same reasons, or that Israel's reasons are worse than America's, but I can't see any other way.

These are all good reasons why I wish the Jews managed to set themselves up nicely and securely in the 1940's.

These are not good reasons for committing ethnic cleansing and other war crimes for decades against an innocent population, passing on the oppression and persecution that was committed against you to a new victim.

Out of interest, your rationale basically fits the modern Palestinians. Oppressed, persecuted, driven from the land of the ancient forebearers had lived in for many hundreds of years, etc. Do you think Palestinians should be allowed to ethnically cleanse and commit war crimes against Israelis and if not, why the hypocrisy?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:31

XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

hakimashou posted:

Do you see, drilldo squirt, how making that choice might have made Israel less inclined rather than more inclined to do things like aggressively assert buffer zones along the border?

lol I'm not sure anything the Palestinians do will make the Israelis less inclined to gently caress with them imho

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:32

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

hakimashou posted:

Well, for one thing, narrowly avoiding extermination and suffering all that horror for so long might cause people to belive, after having lost so many friends and loved ones, "this proves that it really is us or them and we can be sure our very survival is really at stake."

In which case it's hard to blame people for choosing "us" over "them."

I think you'll find a lot of people, when it comes down to it, would rather do something that might be wrong than die and have their friends and family and all their people die too.

I mean, it's bad to do things that are wrong, but it's worse to be exterminated, and if the Jewish experience with Europeans taught them anything, it's that extermination is a real thing that is actually done to them and not just an idea or abstraction.

So you fully admit what israel is doing is wrong but it's ok because other people did it to us? I personally don't see what imminent threat the state of Israel is currently under. Nor do I see how the suffering of the whole Jewish people makes it OK for the state of Israel to act like this.

drilldo squirt fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jan 31, 2016

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:33

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

hakimashou posted:

Really?

See, I figure there is a connection between the rocket and tunnel attacks and Israel and Gaza becoming more suspicious of each other and less trusting and less willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Say that during the summer of rockets things had gone differently, that instead of attacking Israel, Gazans had chosen to disarm and take action to be less of a threat rather than more of a threat.

Do you see, drilldo squirt, how making that choice might have made Israel less inclined rather than more inclined to do things like aggressively assert buffer zones along the border?

I do, but only if we were talking about a mean child instead of a modern nation state.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:34

Yardbomb: Jul 11, 2011; What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

"People tried to exterminate us before" is a pretty bad excuse for now trying to exterminate another group of people.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:35

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

team overhead smash posted:

These are all good reasons why I wish the Jews managed to set themselves up nicely and securely in the 1940's.

These are not good reasons for committing ethnic cleansing and other war crimes for decades against an innocent population, passing on the oppression and persecution that was committed against you to a new victim.

Out of interest, your rationale basically fits the modern Palestinians. Oppressed, persecuted, driven from the land of the ancient forebearers had lived in for many hundreds of years, etc. Do you think Palestinians should be allowed to ethnically cleanse and commit war crimes against Israelis and if not, why the hypocrisy?

I don't think anyone would permit it, least of all the Israelis or the USA, especially after 9/11.

What sympathy people that matter might have once had for Jihad groups and "Islamic Resistance" was crashed into skyscrapers in New York, and then more recently locked in cages and set on fire, or drowned, or decapitated in Syria and Iraq.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:38

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

hakimashou posted:

I don't think anyone would permit it, least of all the Israelis or the USA, especially after 9/11.

What sympathy people that matter might have once had for Jihad groups and "Islamic Resistance" was crashed into skyscrapers in New York, and then more recently locked in cages and set on fire, or drowned, or decapitated in Syria and Iraq.

You're basically saying yeah it would be justified but what can they do about it. You're an incredibly awful person.

drilldo squirt fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jan 31, 2016

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:39

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

Yardbomb posted:

"People tried to exterminate us before" is a pretty bad excuse for now trying to exterminate another group of people.

Israel could annihilate Gazans and finely divide all the man made material in the Gaza Strip in a week or two if they were trying to exterminate the Gazans.

I think you might before repeating something like that think on the actual holocaust and what was done to people, and why.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:40

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

hakimashou posted:

Israel could annihilate Gazans and finely divide all the man made material in the Gaza Strip in a week or two if they were trying to exterminate the Gazans.

I think you might before repeating something like that think on the actual holocaust and what was done to people, and why.

If they did that their would be massive political backlash as the west would no longer be able to ignore it, I'm betting that's why they haven't done it yet and not because they aren't trying.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:42

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

hakimashou posted:

I don't think anyone would permit it, least of all the Israelis or the USA, especially after 9/11.

What sympathy people that matter might have once had for Jihad groups and "Islamic Resistance" was crashed into skyscrapers in New York, and then more recently locked in cages and set on fire, or drowned, or decapitated in Syria and Iraq.

This was not the question. The question was, if Hamas conquered Israel and forced all Jewish Israelis to flee or be killed, would your reaction be "eh, them's the breaks" or would you suddenly find the courage to be against genocide?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:43

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

drilldo squirt posted:

If they did that their would be massive political backlash as the west would no longer be able to ignore it, I'm betting that's why they haven't done it yet and not because they aren't trying.

They're just pure evil eh?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:46

Gaj: Apr 30, 2006

Isnt that his thing? Ive been lurking the thread for years and thats all hakimashou says; might makes right, the past is history gotta move on. Hes been saying the same thing for the last 2 threads.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:47

Yardbomb: Jul 11, 2011; What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

hakimashou posted:

Israel could annihilate Gazans and finely divide all the man made material in the Gaza Strip in a week or two if they were trying to exterminate the Gazans.

I think you might before repeating something like that think on the actual holocaust and what was done to people, and why.

They can comfortably get away with the slow grind on exterminating them, with pretty minimal action taken against them for it.

If they actively bombarded them with everything in an all-out effort today, they might actually face a real backlash.

That seems to be the situation about.

Might makes right is a garbage system of thought by the way.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:47

Polygynous: Dec 13, 2006; welp

hakimashou posted:

They're just pure evil eh?

Your position is Israel is doing things it knows are wrong for reasons, you tell me.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:48

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

hakimashou posted:

They're just pure evil eh?

Who's they? I do believe the government of Israel wants to make a Jewish state that includes Gaza and the west bank, and I think the methods they are using that you have described are morally wrong.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:48

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

Gaj posted:

Isnt that his thing? Ive been lurking the thread for years and thats all hakimashou says; might makes right, the past is history gotta move on. Hes been saying the same thing for the last 2 threads.

It's good to be consistent when you're correct!

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:50

Yardbomb: Jul 11, 2011; What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?

hakimashou posted:

It's good to be consistent when you're correct!

So the consistency is doing you no good here then.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:51

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

hakimashou posted:

It's good to be consistent when you're correct!

So your answer to the previous question is that yes, you'd be totally comfortable with Hamas ethnically cleansing Israel so long as they have the military capacity to do it?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:53

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

DrProsek posted:

So your answer to the previous question is that yes, you'd be totally comfortable with Hamas ethnically cleansing Israel so long as they have the military capacity to do it?

That's messed up, but I guess the dude is a huge anti semite.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 16:54

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

hakimashou posted:

Well, for one thing, narrowly avoiding extermination and suffering all that horror for so long might cause people to belive, after having lost so many friends and loved ones, "this proves that it really is us or them and we can be sure our very survival is really at stake."

In which case it's hard to blame people for choosing "us" over "them."

I think you'll find a lot of people, when it comes down to it, would rather do something that might be wrong than die and have their friends and family and all their people die too.

I mean, it's bad to do things that are wrong, but it's worse to be exterminated, and if the Jewish experience with Europeans taught them anything, it's that extermination is a real thing that is actually done to them and not just an idea or abstraction.

Going with that logic, why wasn't the Holocaust justified? Germany in 1938 had suffered through nearly a generation of warfare and poverty at the hands of European nations, and finally decided that "we" were more important than "them." Were their actions not justified because their suffering fell short of actual genocide, and would they have been justified otherwise? What if Germany had been lovely and poor for a hundred years first?

And how long does the justification last? Jews in Israel live significantly safer and more comfortable lives than anyone in the neighboring countries. Are they allowed to commit ethnic cleansing and war crimes until the end of time, or is there a statute of limitations?

Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jan 31, 2016

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:07

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

hakimashou posted:

Israel could annihilate Gazans and finely divide all the man made material in the Gaza Strip in a week or two if they were trying to exterminate the Gazans.

I think you might before repeating something like that think on the actual holocaust and what was done to people, and why.

Why would they need to? Gaza will be unlivable by 2020. No sense in wasting valuable Israeli lives in an active genocide campaign when you can keep at what you're doing and see a massive Palestinian population drop-off in a few years anyway.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:15

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

I just want to remind everyone they're arguing with a guy who put forth the totally uncontroversial opinion that the united states should have wiped the USSR off the map with nuclear weapons after the end of WW2. Just saying.

He's probably pulling your chain, y'all

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:17

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

Ultramega posted:

I just want to remind everyone they're arguing with a guy who put forth the totally uncontroversial opinion that the united states should have wiped the USSR off the map with nuclear weapons after the end of WW2. Just saying.

He's probably pulling your chain, y'all

I think he's totally serious actually, he's just an awful person.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:20

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

In the realm of poo poo that actually happened and that warrants a response there were reports on Ma'an News last night about a checkpoint near Beit El that was attacked by an armed palestinian who managed to injure 3 soldiers and was killed during hostilities. Kind of a step up from a random stabbing. I'm assuming "not a lot if the israelis have anything to say about it", but I'm guessing guns are not widely available to west bank palestinians unless they're collaborators right?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:20

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

Lol at this whole page honestly.

I don't know what hakimashou, and similar posters get out of posting in this thread. Is it just that general SA phenomenon of people who just post because they thrive off negative attention? If you want that there's plenty to be had on facebook.

Conversely what does that say about people who probably know these people are shitheels and they post anyway? Not worth it. To the point, concerning the overall general situation in israel, and the occupied territories it doesn't matter one iota what main paineframe or the insect court think about what should be done. At least the posters similar to the former (which is to say the majority), are at least consistent in their condemnation of war crimes and atrocities regardless of which state did them which I don't really think can be applied to the 2 or 3 loudmouths who post here and make this thread into a pissing contest.

Ultramega fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jan 31, 2016

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:24

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

hakimashou posted:

I don't know the rationale, but it would make sense to render certain areas where you had established a buffer or "no go" zone useless for farming so you could prevent farmers from using it.

Sure. The problem is that nations only have the right to unilaterally establish buffer zones on their own territory, not someone else's. Gazan civilians are not subject to Israeli military or government authority, and therefore Israeli forces have no right (other than "we have enough military superiority to violate your rights at will and you can't stop us") to enforce a buffer zone over them. If the IDF wants to bulldoze Israeli homes and fields to create a buffer zone in Israeli territory, that would be just fine (assuming that they followed proper Israeli law and procedures, and survived the inevitable political backlash). However, "military necessity" hasn't been a valid justification for using your overwhelming military superiority to freely violate other nations' sovereignty since 1914.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:24

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

meanwhile...

quote:

Even the staunchly pro-Israel French Socialist Party has had it with Israeli expansionism and aggression. French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius announced Friday that France would make one last push to restart diplomatic negotiations between Israel and Palestine, but said that if the endeavor failed then France intended to recognize the Palestinian state. Paris is obviously implying that the failure of diplomacy and the abrogation of the Oslo peace process are primarily the fault of the Likud government of Israel.

The French parliament urged recognition of Palestine in a vote in 2014. Sweden has recognized Palestine and a number of other European countries have raised the Palestinian mission in their capitals to the rank of full embassy.
This tendency toward recognition of Palestine holds severe diplomatic and economic dangers for Israel. Such recognition gives aggrieved Palestinians the possible right to sue Israeli squatters and the politicians backing them in European courts. Already, the French, British and Dutch governments advise their corporations not to do business with Israeli squatters on the West Bank, since they are opened to being sued by the actual owners of that land. The European Union recently insisted that squatter produce be so labeled and not be dishonestly represented as �Israeli.� Even the US State Department has backed the EU on this measure.

On Tuesday in an address on policy to the diplomatic corps in Paris, French President Francois Hollande had said,

quote:
�the Israeli-Palestinian conflict continues to be felt throughout the Middle East. It would be naive, dangerous even, to look the other way. Each day, we see the risk of a flare-up. Every missed deadline takes us further away from the two-state solution, which is nonetheless the solution backed by the international community. France has therefore once again taken the initiative, as announced by Laurent Fabius, of mobilizing the Arab actors and the European and American partners in the framework of an international support group and the Security Council. This proposal is still on the table and it is the only one, currently, that would enable the dialogue to be resumed.�

The remarks came after a review of French steps to fight terrorism, and it seems clear that establishing a Palestinian state is seen by Paris to be a form of counter-terrorism, having potential for tamping down tensions in the Middle East. Paris was hit by significant terrorist attacks twice in 2015, with most of the perpetrators being marginalized, angry French and Belgian second-generation Arab immigrants. Something on the order of 5% of French are Muslim, and that community tends to support Palestinian rights and to pressure the French government to do so. French Muslims vote heavily for the ruling Socialist Party in France, fearing the anti-immigrant sentiments common on the French Right, including among Gaullists.

France also has good and close relations with many Arab governments, and is pressured by them about Israeli mistreatment of the Palestinians, as well.

Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has become more and more strident and arrogant in dealing with European and international politicians, acting as a sort of Donald Trump of the Middle East.

He recently has gone around accusing everyone from UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to Swedish Foreign Minister Margot Wallstr�m of being terrorists for complaining about his oppression of the Palestinian people. (Netanyahu maintains, laughably, that Palestinian resistance activities have nothing to do with their being militarily occupied by the Israelis, and reacts to suggestions that he might by his policies be producing Palestinian violence with the casuistic charge that making this observation encourages terrorism). At the same time, his government just this week cheekily announced that it was stealing another 150 hectares of Palestinian land on the West Bank, which it had pledge in the Oslo peace accords to turn over to Palestine.

France roundly condemned the further land theft.

On Friday Fabius slapped down Netanyahu for his insults to Ban Ki-moon and lamented that �unfortunately the colonization [of Palestinian land by Israelis] continues.�

No American politician can call Israeli policy what it is, colonization, for fear of vicious reprisals by the bullies in the Israel lobbies.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:27

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

I really like the usage of the term squatters to refer to settlers. Way more accurate than 'settlers'.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:31

drilldo squirt: Aug 18, 2006; a beautiful, soft meat sack; Clapping Larry

Ultramega posted:

Lol at this whole page honestly.

I don't know what hakimashou, and similar posters get out of posting in this thread. Is it just that general SA phenomenon of people who just post because they thrive off negative attention? If you want that there's plenty to be had on facebook.

Conversely what does that say about people who probably know these people are shitheels and they post anyway? Not worth it. To the point, concerning the overall general situation in israel, and the occupied territories it doesn't matter one iota what main paineframe or the insect court think about what should be done. At least the posters similar to the former (which is to say the majority), are at least consistent in their condemnation of war crimes and atrocities regardless of which state did them which I don't really think can be applied to the 2 or 3 loudmouths who post here and make this thread into a pissing contest.

It's funny?

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:33

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# ? May 15, 2024 02:43

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Ultramega posted:

In the realm of poo poo that actually happened and that warrants a response there were reports on Ma'an News last night about a checkpoint near Beit El that was attacked by an armed palestinian who managed to injure 3 soldiers and was killed during hostilities. Kind of a step up from a random stabbing. I'm assuming "not a lot if the israelis have anything to say about it", but I'm guessing guns are not widely available to west bank palestinians unless they're collaborators right?

As far as I can tell, ordinary West Bank Palestinians are not permitted to have guns under either IDF or PA laws. In practice, though, PA security forces aren't the only Palestinians with guns; Hamas and other groups do have some presence in the West Bank, smuggling and black market buying do exist, and so on. So while the presence of guns does tend to indicate ties to some organized group, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the PA.

# ? Jan 31, 2016 17:34

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