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Alien Rope Burn posted:Those are just relatively traditional TCGs, so not by my reckoning, no. Epic is the best example of Magic-without-gambling-for-cards that I'm aware of, and it's really good. Of course, it had Kickstarter promos that AFAIK aren't widely available, so even then there's a bit of marketing nonsense, unfortunately, but it's still a really fun, modernized version of Magic. They're limited-exclusives, though. They've said they're going to release the backer bonus cards to the general public later.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:08
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Xom posted:Codex is not a collectibles game. Yeah, that's what I was presuming. Evil Mastermind posted:They're limited-exclusives, though. They've said they're going to release the backer bonus cards to the general public later. Oh, okay, that's great to hear. I couldn't find anything easily on their site, so I wasn't sure.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:09
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How long ago was the last time you looked at Magic in order to describe it as gambling for cards?
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Jan 31, 2016 04:21
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Gravy Train Robber posted:How long ago was the last time you looked at Magic in order to describe it as gambling for cards? Are they selling complete sets now, then?
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Jan 31, 2016 04:26
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Are they selling complete sets now, then? Well, the problem might be the reverse then - you're too new to remember when Magic involved literal gambling for cards. At the start of each game, you'd ante a card which would then be kept by the winner. Other guy probably thought this is what you were referencing, while you probably never played that way. In any case, games in this space are probably better just taking good ideas from Magic and being open about it; Magic has covered so much design space over the years that steering around it completely tends to make for an awkward rule set.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:42
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jmzero posted:Well, the problem might be the reverse then - you're too new to remember when Magic involved literal gambling for cards. At the start of each game, you'd ante a card which would then be kept by the winner. Other guy probably thought this is what you were referencing, while you probably never played that way. I'm sorry, this is exactly what I thought you meant because there are actually people who think the game still involves that.  quote:In any case, games in this space are probably better just taking good ideas from Magic and being open about it; Magic has covered so much design space over the years that steering around it completely tends to make for an awkward rule set. This is true, but on the other hand looking through the previews I don't really see anything to be excited about, sadly. As for, Alien Rope Burn posted:Are they selling complete sets now, then? LCGs are basically this. I have plenty of FFG games that I basically treat as complete board games. Fixed card set games aren't really new or a big selling point these days.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:48
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Anniversary posted:Are there rules / more details than what's linked in that article?  to bemuse you.
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Jan 31, 2016 04:56
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jmzero posted:Well, the problem might be the reverse then - you're too new to remember when Magic involved literal gambling for cards. At the start of each game, you'd ante a card which would then be kept by the winner. Other guy probably thought this is what you were referencing, while you probably never played that way. Nah, I played from Beta to Homelands, mostly, though I've popped in occasionally for a draft tourney or the like. I'm mostly just referring to the randomization of cards in any old CCG, not the ante mechanic. I was trying to come up with a better term to used to demonstrate how I feel about it than "collectible card game" or "trading card game", which seem like the kind of positive marketing terms one would use instead of "incomplete card game". But "incomplete card games" probably isn't clear, even if it is accurate. That's not to say people can't enjoy CCGs (or... ICGs?) and I certainly had fun back in the day, but right now I've been trying to sell them off here and there and getting them ready for sale feels like unboxing purified regret. Gravy Train Robber posted:LCGs are basically this. I have plenty of FFG games that I basically treat as complete board games. Fixed card set games aren't really new or a big selling point these days. This is true, but most of them aren't Magic-alikes that I'm aware of, though somebody can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Granted, I'm not even sure how much of a Magic-alike that Codex is in the first place. I understand why some folks really don't like Sirlin, but I think he tends to at have interesting ideas even if he has a tendency to rehash existing concepts.
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Jan 31, 2016 05:06
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Why do people dislike Sirlin?
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Jan 31, 2016 05:14
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Evil Mastermind posted:Why do people dislike Sirlin? Why do people dislike Jonathan Blow, Luke Crane, Vincent Baker, or Ron Edwards? They're game makers who are strongly expressive and particular about what a good game is and how they apply those opinions when making games. Nerd social fallacies kick in and they get labelled irredeemable assholes because they're not nice. Problem is their ideas tend to be influential and they make games people actually like so they're brought up regularly, and someone has to chime in to say that they're assholes and that becomes their reputation.
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Jan 31, 2016 05:44
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Evil Mastermind posted:Why do people dislike Sirlin? He's kind of an elitist tool and that puts people off. Also he "steals" ideas from other games, which is basically the complaint board game nerds use to tar guys they don't like since basically every good board game is a synthesis of ideas from previous ones, but when people do it too blatantly or without paying the right dues in the eyes of hardcore BG people then they get automatically relegated to the poo poo pile. Which is funny because he actually usually uses established mechanics in really good ways and is responsible for some great games. Puzzle Strike for instance is a legit fun and good game. But I think most of it is that Sirlin is a FGC guy and they have a certain way of doing things and interacting with people that rubs people the wrong way. He's also coming from the design perspective with fighting games where things like core mechanics aren't considered verboten to rip off wholesale if they are good. No one is writing hundreds of works on SRK about how the developers of every game since Street Fighter stole the fireball motion and the concept of projectile interactions, that's just a thing in those games now because it's a good idea and good ideas should propagate. A lot of it also has to do with his writing style as well, he's clearly coming form a very technical writing background where you always write with authority on your subject (IE he writes like someone writing a manual not like someone writing a commentary many times) and so people get offended because he presents all his information as if it is 100% undeniably correct, instead of opting for the more common but vague "I think this is how it should be done but opinions vary" style that many commentators on board and video games seem to lean towards these days. But yeah, it's safe to say many people hate Sirlin because he's Sirlin. No one leveled the same kind of hate against the guys who made The Spoils when they were pushing it really hard and sending out free booster boxes left and right, even though their game was also basically a punched up version of MtG with a couple slightly changed mechanics (and by that I mean, a few ideas copied from L5R) and nobody leveled any complaints at Blue Moon, even though it pioneered the idea of "steal ideas from TCGs and rework them in a Board Game context with fixed card pools" thing ten plus years ago.
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Jan 31, 2016 05:52
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Evil Mastermind posted:Why do people dislike Sirlin? I like several Sirlin games, but I hate Sirlin's release philosophy. Puzzle Strike: Shadows came out less than 2 years after 2nd edition, but was billed as only being compatible with the newly released ($50) third edition. I think only a dozen or so chips even changed?
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Jan 31, 2016 06:24
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fez_machine posted:Why do people dislike Jonathan Blow, Luke Crane, Vincent Baker, or Ron Edwards? Hm, yes, poor Ron "talking about games a certain way means you're brain damaged and is equivalent to post-molestation trauma, yes I mean that literally, no seriously" Edwards. People are just so het up about his ~strong opinions~ what with those nerd social fallacies going around.
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Jan 31, 2016 06:39
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InShaneee posted:I like several Sirlin games, but I hate Sirlin's release philosophy. Puzzle Strike: Shadows came out less than 2 years after 2nd edition, but was billed as only being compatible with the newly released ($50) third edition. I think only a dozen or so chips even changed? This is reasonable for how fighting games operate. It's thematic.
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Jan 31, 2016 06:40
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Evil Mastermind posted:Why do people dislike Sirlin? I'm still butt-hurt about buying $200 of his games at a con only for him to put a new version of Puzzle Strike less then a month later.
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Jan 31, 2016 07:04
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Baron Snow posted:I'm still butt-hurt about buying $200 of his games at a con only for him to put a new version of Puzzle Strike less then a month later. Every single Sirlin game you bought at that con is now out of date--not a single one had the cards or chips being changed for sale as an update kit or a kickstarter bonus or a one time deal. He released games he later called incomplete and told all the early supporters to buy entirely new copies of them.
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Jan 31, 2016 07:14
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Mystic Mongol posted:Every single Sirlin game you bought at that con is now out of date--not a single one had the cards or chips being changed for sale as an update kit or a kickstarter bonus or a one time deal. He released games he later called incomplete and told all the early supporters to buy entirely new copies of them. Well that's just a dick move. Now I hate that guy too.
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Jan 31, 2016 07:15
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Kwyndig posted:Well that's just a dick move. Now I hate that guy too. To be fair both Z-Man and Fantasy Flight did this to me as well, but I don't hold it against them. Not that I really like Sirlin or am supporting him here, but it's not like that's an uncommon thing in the games industry right now.
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Jan 31, 2016 07:42
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Whenever people rush to remind everyone that you can separate the work/message from the creator they invariably seem to forget that just because you can separate them doesn't mean that the part people dislike magically stops being true. Dave Sirlin is a guy who has some extremely relevant and insightful points with regards to games and how people approach them. He also comes across to me as someone who I'd rather not ever play a game with. I can hold both of those opinions at once. This is beside his weird pricing/sales schemes which I also think are very strange and possibly dumb.
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Jan 31, 2016 07:46
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I like the Rifts world I think Kevin Siembieda is a dick and a thief. These are not mutually exclusive.
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Jan 31, 2016 09:04
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Mystic Mongol posted:Every single Sirlin game you bought at that con is now out of date--not a single one had the cards or chips being changed for sale as an update kit or a kickstarter bonus or a one time deal. He released games he later called incomplete and told all the early supporters to buy entirely new copies of them. Yeah. I was lucky to come in late on Puzzle Strike, though I lost half my set at Gencon and need to rebuild the whole set anyway... But Yomi 2nd ed. at least has an update pack, so he's learning. Still, I'll always remember talking to another designer who said that though Sirlin made good games, "we both know how much those cards really cost." Oof.
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Jan 31, 2016 12:02
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El Estrago Bonito posted:He's kind of an elitist tool and that puts people off. Also he "steals" ideas from other games, which is basically the complaint board game nerds use to tar guys they don't like since basically every good board game is a synthesis of ideas from previous ones, but when people do it too blatantly or without paying the right dues in the eyes of hardcore BG people then they get automatically relegated to the poo poo pile. Someone came up with the idea of a Dominion poker chip set for travel play. Sirlin not only copied the idea, he cloned every aspect of the graphic design including the iconography and passed it off as his own work. That's a bit more than borrowing a mechanic, particularly when the game you copied the idea for also borrows 90% of the mechanics from the game you stole the alternate graphic design from.  
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Jan 31, 2016 13:05
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Luke Crane writes with in the voice of a renfaire manic pixie girl. He's always "on," and it comes across like a kid who only speaks with a fake accent. Goddamnit Luke. I want to like your poo poo, be loving real and talk to me like people. He's not "too influential," he's just insufferable. Plus he's stupid about reprints and PDF stealing from the "experience."
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Jan 31, 2016 13:31
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Evil Mastermind posted:Why do people dislike Sirlin? Mystic Mongol posted:Every single Sirlin game you bought at that con is now out of date--not a single one had the cards or chips being changed for sale as an update kit or a kickstarter bonus or a one time deal. He released games he later called incomplete and told all the early supporters to buy entirely new copies of them. An update kit was printed alongside Yomi v2, and is still available. And if you don't want the expansion characters, you don't need to get v2 at all. The main changes were to Jaina and Lum, who were balanced in v1, but their spammable fast attacks choked off the design space needed to balance some of the expansion characters. For Puzzle Strike, someone complained that the Shadows expansion was marketed as incompatible with 2E. I can't comment on the marketing, but the only necessary change for compatibility is the −$1 on Combine. The balance errata to go with that system change are (new wording in bold): quote:Rook's Stone Wall For Pandante, you can play with the expansion's system changes without buying the expansion. (Then you won't have the expansion content (such as the new icons I suggested!), of course.) Pandante is no longer sold without the expansion content. On a final note, as in fighting games, each of Yomi, Puzzle Strike, and Pandante has grognards who prefer the older version. (Sirlin hates them!) If you don't want expansion content, you don't necessarily need to update at all. (Personally I dislike every Carcassonne expansion except Inns & Cathedrals (toward which I am neutral), including The River.)
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Jan 31, 2016 22:19
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Evil Mastermind posted:Why do people dislike Sirlin? I figured other people could answer that better, and I'm glad to find out I was right.
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Jan 31, 2016 23:05
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quote:I figured other people could answer that better, and I'm glad to find out I was right. The only thing I'll add to the discussion above is that, regardless of his personality and behavior, lots of us aren't sold on his game design skills. In particular, Pandante got some of the worst reviews I've ever got from my game group; we found it intensely boring, fiddly, and terribly balanced - introducing a whole swath of problems to Poker while drowning out the good parts in downtime and stupid luck swings. I understand the balance has been reworked in a second edition, and maybe it's a playable game now - but we could, no exaggeration, have told him a ton of stuff that needed to be changed after a single session (and browsing the new rules suggests we immediately came to many of the same conclusions he eventually did). Like, the ordering of hands was stupid - desperately, painfully stupid - it took us one round before Floosh was an overwhelmingly common bet. And it obviously took too long to play. I have no idea how anyone could have given him any positive feedback on the game in that state. Everything about it screamed lack of understanding and poor play testing. If nothing else, I'd certainly advise against buying any Sirlin game in its first edition. Edit/Unedit: I posted some stuff here that Sirlin has written, but I'm unposting it as I don't think it'll go anywhere useful. Suffice it to say, reading a bit more of what Sirlin has written over the years has, uh... not raised my opinion of his game design skills. jmzero fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Jan 31, 2016 23:56
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Evil Mastermind posted:Why do people dislike Sirlin? Sirlin can be a smart designer, but understand that Puzzle Strike first edition was pretty dumb and bad while simultaneously being touted by Sirlin as "Dominion, but fixed."
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Feb 1, 2016 02:38
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Apocalypse World's second edition Kickstarter is up. No real bells and whistles here, just a basic pledge, a pledge for the PDF, a pledge for the book and PDF, and a pledge for multiple books for game groups. I never saw any of the Patreon previews for it, so I'm pretty excited about getting a first glance at the final product.
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Feb 1, 2016 03:04
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Free Cog posted:Apocalypse World's second edition Kickstarter is up. No real bells and whistles here, just a basic pledge, a pledge for the PDF, a pledge for the book and PDF, and a pledge for multiple books for game groups. I never saw any of the Patreon previews for it, so I'm pretty excited about getting a first glance at the final product. Backed, been waiting for this for some time.
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Feb 1, 2016 05:14
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Backed. Hoping for group and solo sex moves.
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Feb 1, 2016 05:28
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It's funny given that the best post-apocalyptic movie in the last two decades had zero sex.
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Feb 1, 2016 05:31
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Backed. I like it when RPGs try to address sexuality as at least a thing that exists, though a lot of those attempts misfire. At least the sex moves were mostly not creepy, just kinda dumb, and you could mark them out and lose absolutely nothing from the game. Meanwhile I'm looking forward to this 'threat map' idea they're promising.
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Feb 1, 2016 07:01
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Free Cog posted:Apocalypse World's second edition Kickstarter is up. No real bells and whistles here, just a basic pledge, a pledge for the PDF, a pledge for the book and PDF, and a pledge for multiple books for game groups. I never saw any of the Patreon previews for it, so I'm pretty excited about getting a first glance at the final product. This is one of the vanishingly few RPGs I think I actually want a physical book for now. Not because I find the physical format particularly superior anymore or need any of its attributes, but because Apocalypse World is just that great.
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Feb 1, 2016 07:37
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Ugh. I'm hoping Baker plans to actually print and distribute the game this time around so I can pick up a print copy for less than $46.
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Feb 1, 2016 09:40
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Mantic's The Walking Dead: All Out War, based on the comic book license, is now up and running   Multiplayer skirmish game, where players run gangs, and the zombies are an NPC obstacle. Due to past fulfillment issues, there's only going to be the one regular pledge level, no add ons, so there's no special boxing to be done. It's also to protect retailers, so all the expansions bar one are coming out retail only, in FFG Imperial Assault style 3 minis plus cards blisters, plus occasional larger campaign expansions.
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Feb 1, 2016 14:44
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So what all is different about this edition? He didn't go into much, and I've only played Powered by the Apocalypse games, but never the real thing, so his bare bones summary tells me nothing.
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Feb 1, 2016 15:00
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Luke Crane's latest update doesn't actually have all the information for backers in it, so I looked in the comments and he clarified that people who have backed already/are backing later (maybe) don't have to do anything but the books are going to cost $35 instead of $25 in the future. A hard copy of Apocalypse World isn't the must-buy it once was for me, but I'll still grab the PDF just kinda out of principle for ushering in a really nice trend of games.
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Feb 1, 2016 16:45
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Swagger Dagger posted:Luke Crane's latest update doesn't actually have all the information for backers in it, so I looked in the comments and he clarified that people who have backed already/are backing later (maybe) don't have to do anything but the books are going to cost $35 instead of $25 in the future. He clarified in the comments: the KS price is still $25, it's the RRP that will be $35. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/burningwheel/the-burning-wheel-codex/posts/1479585?cursor=12360474#comment-12360473
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Feb 1, 2016 17:11
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Can anyone make enough sense of the florid language to tell if the newest printing of the core Burning Wheel Gold book is worth pleading for if I've already got an older printing?
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Feb 1, 2016 17:17
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That Old Tree posted:Hm, yes, poor Ron "talking about games a certain way means you're brain damaged and is equivalent to post-molestation trauma, yes I mean that literally, no seriously" Edwards. People are just so het up about his ~strong opinions~ what with those nerd social fallacies going around.
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Feb 1, 2016 17:30
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