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Dabir posted:So Israel sneakily popped mutes in the Ethiopians' trumpets? Are you saying hearing loss is good? 
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Feb 1, 2016 22:02
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The Insect Court posted:Ah, I see. It's funny, ironic anti-semitism. He's parodying hakimashou. By making a completely different sort of argument(the classically antisemitic one) instead of hakimashou's(the sociopathic "realist" one). It's not anti-semitism. He's arguing that ethnic cleansing is wrong by portraying the opinions of posters who argue in favour of ethnic cleansing in an exaggerated but still recognisable form to show how absurd and horrendous their beliefs are. quote:What reactionary extremist Likudnik scum is he parodying in the post below, where he repeats the "Jews are bloodthirsty fanatics commanded by their god to slaughter non-Jews" 'joke'? Let's take a look.... Looks very similar to your positions. When the only pro-zionist posters in the thread are consistently advocating and attempting to justify ethnic cleansing and war crimes, you can't whine when someone points out how terrible these opinions are. Besides, his point is that Jewish people aren't allowed to commit war crimes against Palestinians simply because they're Jewish and try to make rationalsiations about the land being inherently Jewish from the times of the Torah, etc and any rationalisation is ridiculous. Do you disagree? If not, then what's the issue? If so then we can stop arguing because your position is unacceptable and inherently racist. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 22:28
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My question still stands, TIC. Do you really think anti-Semitism is a joking matter?
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Feb 1, 2016 22:37
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SedanChair posted:Are you saying hearing loss is good? It is when there's muted trumpets around. Sorry, that's not a metaphor.
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Feb 1, 2016 23:36
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drilldo squirt posted:I could be wrong but Forbes says I wasn't. http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/#6e2f32bb2880 That article, put simply, is poo poo. Though it has plenty of company - because the allegations are so shocking and also the Israel connection, stories quickly shed important details and context as reporters rush to restate the headline and clickbait it up, and failure to appreciate context causes many aspects of it to be misunderstood. The shots were given by health clinics run by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, an American charitable NGO which is not under the control of the Israeli government. The Israeli Health Ministry and other government agencies had no direct control over what happened in the transit camps, which were run by the JDC. And the guy who was directly in charge of those clinics is super good, I can't imagine him being racist against Ethiopians. It's likely that there was no organized, official policy, and that the problem was a result of individual bad actors that the system was not sufficiently monitored to catch.
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Feb 2, 2016 00:43
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Main Paineframe posted:That article, put simply, is poo poo. Though it has plenty of company - because the allegations are so shocking and also the Israel connection, stories quickly shed important details and context as reporters rush to restate the headline and clickbait it up, and failure to appreciate context causes many aspects of it to be misunderstood. Do you have anything I can read about this?
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Feb 2, 2016 01:33
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drilldo squirt posted:Do you have anything I can read about this? Unfortunately, I don't have anything specific - the original Haa'retz article is behind a membership wall, and most other English-language reporting about it is sensationalist bullshit. I'll try to write something up, though. For an Ethiopian Jew who wants to immigrate to Israel, you'll first end up in a transit camp, run by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, a Zionist-leaning American NGO and charity that provides humanitarian assistance all over the world...and also directly supports organized immigration to Israel, among other things. These camps are, to some degree, officially sanctioned by Israel, but they're run exclusively by NGOs like the JDC and the Israeli government has no direct say in how they're run. The exact details of the relationship are a bit confusing - suffice it to say that Israel has very close ties to NGOs like the JDC, and these NGOs directly support and work with various Israeli projects like this, but they're still independent and not subject to direct Israeli control. Now, at these transit camps, various services are provided to the Ethiopians awaiting their ticket to Israel in order to prepare them for life in a Westernized first-world country and provide them services that they might not have been able to access or afford before. One of these services is healthcare; the JDC camps in Ethiopia provide free or low-cost healthcare, including vaccinations and family planning services. There's also education involved, since access to those things may not have been available to them. The Depo-Provera incident boils down to two major factors: first, some of the Ethiopians living in the transit camps were bullied, intimidated, or outright deceived into receiving Depo-Provera shots. Second, after they traveled to Israel and got regular Israeli doctors there, those regular doctors continued to administer Depo-Provera shots to those Ethiopians without realizing that they didn't want the shots and may not have even known about them. Neither one can directly be attributed to any policy of the Israeli government, although there were clearly some major failures of oversight. The shots in the transit camps would directly be the fault of the JDC's clinics. Typically, we'd blame the JDC as an organization, but there's a problem with that - the Medical Director of the Ethiopia efforts, who's in overall charge of these clinics, is an incredibly good person who has been doing charity medical work in Africa (primarily Ethiopia) for two and a half decades and has personally adopted a number of Ethiopian children, mostly orphans or kids with life-threatening diseases. I find it incredibly hard to believe that he would be pushing a policy of ethnic cleansing against Ethiopians. Some have blamed government pressure - it's known that the Israeli Health Ministry at one point congratulated the JDC family planning program for the number of Ethiopian women they had gotten on birth control, and this is often put forth as proof of bad intentions - but there's no evidence that there was any intention to force people onto birth control. After all, the point of a family planning program is to basically get people on birth control - and as long as they're willingly and knowingly choosing it without any coercion, there's nothing wrong with that. And, again, I have a very hard time believing that Dr. Hodes would be complicit in an ethnic cleansing program, no matter who was pressuring him. That just leaves individual doctors and nurses, or possibly even some mid-level manager pushing it without the higher-ups' knowledge. The intention may not have necessarily been ethnic cleansing - nurses are known to have complained about how hard it was to get Ethiopians to understand how birth control pills worked, and there seems to have been issues getting them to remember to take the pills every single day at the same time no matter what, and communication between the medical staff and the Ethiopians was generally difficult. As a result, a nurse was caught on camera saying that they prefer giving the Ethiopians Depo-Provera rather than other birth control so that they'd be less likely to screw it up. And if they're already in that mentality, it's not a huge leap to suggest that it's entirely possible that some of the health workers may have just said "gently caress it" and started giving shots "for their own good" without much caring whether the patients understood what was going on. Mind you, even if their intentions were entirely benign, it is still incredibly unethical to give someone a treatment of any kind without their informed consent or a pressing life-saving need, well-intentioned "they're too stupid to decide for themselves" paternalism is still racist as hell, and the fact that some people were apparently intimidated into getting the shots indicates that at least some of the people doing it had actively malicious intentions. But it probably wasn't outright ethnic cleansing, and it probably wasn't a sanctioned official policy by the organization - although the failure of either the JDC or the Israeli government to discover this serious misconduct over several years is still a problem for both organizations. As for the shots being continued in Israel, that's a much simpler one to explain - Israeli doctors simply gave the Ethiopian migrants whatever their medical documentation from the transit camps said to give them. Their medical records said they were on Depo-Provera, so the doctors gave them more Depo-Provera. Thanks to the language barrier, the education difference, and possibly racism, they didn't really talk much with the Ethiopian migrants, and therefore never realized that the Ethiopians didn't know they were on birth control or didn't want to be on birth control. No malice here, and no governmental intervention either - just a depressing mixture of apathy and stupidity from individual actors. When the scandal blew up, the Health Ministry issued an advisory to Israeli doctors to make extra double sure that their Ethiopian patients know what they're being given and have willingly consented to whatever they're being given, rather than just trusting the papers, so that hopefully puts an end to the issue. Again, the Israeli government isn't entirely free of blame, since the fact that this was happening for so long is a sign that the requirements of education, availability of translators, and other important factors for integrating Ethiopian migrants into Israel are not being met. However, this end of it was also neither official government policy nor an organized effort toward ethnic cleansing. Now, mind you, just because it wasn't an organized policy of ethnic cleansing doesn't mean that it wasn't a flagrant violation of medical and human ethics and a serious red flag about oversight in these organizations. But it's a far cry from what the headlines suggest.
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Feb 2, 2016 03:44
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Nosfereefer posted:My question still stands, TIC. Do you really think anti-Semitism is a joking matter? I doubt he cares. It's just a convenient cudgel. He's not actually concerned about the plight of Jews the world over, just defending Israels actions no matter what.
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Feb 2, 2016 04:25
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It's a weird thing to argue. Netanyahu would just as soon that the Ethiopians have tons of kids to better fight the Palestinians with. It's the Eritreans he wants to keep out.
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Feb 2, 2016 05:28
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Nevvy Z posted:I doubt he cares. It's just a convenient cudgel. He's not actually concerned about the plight of Jews the world over, just defending Israels actions no matter what. It's always grimly amusing to watch how a certain variety of anti-Zionist poster comes to imitate  , almost word for word. "Those lie-berals don't really care about the ghetto thugs, it's just a way for them to play the race card"
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Feb 2, 2016 08:06
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The Insect Court posted:It's always grimly amusing to watch how a certain variety of anti-Zionist poster comes to imitate Except he's not making a blanket statement about people of other ideologies, his criticisms are very much directed at you in particular and what he's saying is supported by your entire posting history.
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Feb 2, 2016 09:57
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You haven't answered, TIC. Is it #1, #2, or #3? I need your guidance, oh wise master.
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Feb 2, 2016 10:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Unfortunately, I don't have anything specific - the original Haa'retz article is behind a membership wall, and most other English-language reporting about it is sensationalist bullshit. I'll try to write something up, though. This is really interesting, thanks. It's too bad their aren't any articles you could find though, I really would have liked to read about it. Like, what happened to the organization that was in charge of these camps and the doctors that were accused of the intimidation. The legal and political fallout of something like this must of been a big deal.
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Feb 2, 2016 11:40
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The Insect Court posted:It's always grimly amusing to watch how a certain variety of anti-Zionist poster comes to imitate team overhead smash posted:Except he's not making a blanket statement about people of other ideologies, his criticisms are very much directed at you in particular and what he's saying is supported by your entire posting history. Also you seem have reversed my position, which is why you may be confused. I'm not saying you love to play the anti-semite card, though you clearly do that's not really the goal. I'm saying you are so desperate to defend the indefensible that all you can do is try to accuse your opponents of something worse, because it's easiest for you to dismiss all of their positions as coming from anti-semitism than to admit that Israel is doing really lovely and hosed up things while holding all the actual power. But that just diminishes real anti-semitism as it exists in the world. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 13:30
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drilldo squirt posted:This is really interesting, thanks. It's too bad their aren't any articles you could find though, I really would have liked to read about it. Like, what happened to the organization that was in charge of these camps and the doctors that were accused of the intimidation. The legal and political fallout of something like this must of been a big deal. There are a few articles that kind if go over the basic points of co tention, like this, but I'm not much of a fan of them since they're light on facts and heavy on "who would believe anything as ridiculous this pathetic anti-semitic scary smear story from the LIEberal media" crap. The most detailed reporting comes from Haa'retz, which originally broke the story, but it's mostly behind their annoying paywall. Ahhhh, consequences. Unfortunately, you're likely to be disappointed. The initial scandal was pretty big, but it was handled very much behind the scenes - no information was released from the investigation (which just finally ended a week or two ago) while it was ongoing, and no sweeping changes or punishments were ever announced, at least in the English-language media. Naturally, the article about the investigation's conclusions is behind Haa'retz's paywall, but I suspect it concludes that it was just a regrettable series of accidents for which no particular person was at fault. There was likely an internal JDC investigation as well, but if so, it was entirely internal and private, and I doubt they'll be publicizing any results or actions taken - they've kept their mouths shut quite tightly about the whole thing. About the best outcome we can hope for is more support for Ethiopians going through this system, so that translators are more available, education is more available, and trustworthy social workers and advocates are available to Ethiopians in both Israel and the transit camps so that these abuses can be caught before they get out of hand.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:25
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Looks like the violence in Israel might be getting a bit more pronounced as there was an attempt at a co-ordinated well armed attack that ended in an abortive firefight after Israel Border Police stopped them. It's notable in that there were three people involved, they were armed with guns and pipe-bombs and they were from the West Bank. This indicates there is getting to be a bit more organisation behind the violence nwo rather than it being spontaneous and unfocused. Additionally they targeted the Border Police (who I beleive would count as legitimate military targets) rather than civilians, although this might be purely down to the circumstances as it appears they were asked for their ID so what their original plan was is unknown.
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Feb 4, 2016 01:12
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Yossi Gurvitz, a leftist blogger that both operates his own blog and writes for Yesh Din and +972 (though not often), has been served an order by the military censorship forbidding him from writing about the IDF and other matters pertaining to national security without clearing it first with the military censorship, kinda hosed up: Unclear at this moment if only he was served this order or if it's a more widespread thing.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:00
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So what's the defense on this one gonna be, I can only wonder with bated breath.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:10
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7eye are reporting that at least two additional leftist bloggers who at the moment would rather not reveal their identities have received a similar order from the military censorship. Metetz MK Ilan Gilon has submitted an open inquiry on this subject to Moshe Yaalon, so far this whole story has been ignored by mainstream media outlets.
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Feb 4, 2016 13:28
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emanresu tnuocca posted:7eye are reporting that at least two additional leftist bloggers who at the moment would rather not reveal their identities have received a similar order from the military censorship. "Functioning Democracy" is a real treat.
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Feb 4, 2016 13:31
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Haaretz now reports that at least 30 bloggers have received these orders. The order itself has been explicitly forbidden for publication by the censor so it's still a bit of mystery but apparently it contains a list consisting of dozens of different subjects of which the bloggers are henceforth forbidden from reporting upon without first vetting through the IDF censor.
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Feb 4, 2016 14:50
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Yardbomb posted:So what's the defense on this one gonna be, I can only wonder with bated breath. "You only care Israel is doing it because they are Jews. Where is your concern for a free press in the rest of the world? FREEST PRESS IN THE MIDDLE EAST! BLOOD LIBEL!"
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Feb 4, 2016 15:03
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Yardbomb posted:So what's the defense on this one gonna be, I can only wonder with bated breath. POST REMOVED BY ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTRY
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Feb 4, 2016 15:10
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Nice ya'll now if you could all just argue against your own strawmen we'd achieve peak I/P thread efficiency.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:25
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Yardbomb posted:So what's the defense on this one gonna be, I can only wonder with bated breath. Probably about the same as the recent spree of putting Palestinians in prison over Facebook posts: cries that anti-IDF posts amount to dangerous "incitement" against Israel and lead directly to terror attacks, therefore massive crackdowns on free speech are needed to prevent the dastardly media from provoking the Arabs to further violence. This article sums up the justifications going around for various free speech suppressions in Israel pretty well. Note the unspoken implication that good, proper journalists report pro-Israel stories out of a deep desire for journalistic fairness and integrity, while reporters who write negative stories are evil propagandists maliciously trying to destroy the Jewish state http://www.jewishpress.com/news/ultra-orthodox-mk-media-cameras-are-like-speeding-vehicles/2016/02/03/ quote:MK Rabbi Israel Eichler (UTJ) said at a Knesset committee discussion of the role of journalists in Judea and Samaria that “the media cameras are like a speeding vehicle.” Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 15:41
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In other news the Zionist octopus, as part of its sinister plot to exterminate the Palestinian people, has sentenced the two Israeli teenagers who carried out the murder of Abu Khdeir. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.701373 quote:The Jerusalem District Court sentenced the two minors convicted of the July 2014 murder of Palestinian teen Mohammed Abu Khdeir; one received a life sentence and the other was sentenced to 21 years in prison. Each minor will also be forced to pay the Abu Khdeir family 30,000 shekels (about $7,700) in compensation.
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Feb 4, 2016 17:00
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Can you tone down the "ironic" anti-semitism TIC, it's frankly pretty disgusting tia
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Feb 4, 2016 17:08
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The Insect Court posted:In other news the Zionist octopus, as part of its sinister plot to exterminate the Palestinian people, has sentenced the two Israeli teenagers who carried out the murder of Abu Khdeir. So no actual comments on Israel restricting bloggers rights?
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Feb 4, 2016 17:12
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Courtesy of Avgad Yavor: Bennet: watch me make everyone read a novel written by Dorit Rabinyan Yaalon: Pffft, that's nothing, watch me make everyone read Yossi Gurvitz blog.
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Feb 4, 2016 17:35
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The Insect Court posted:In other news the Zionist octopus, as part of its sinister plot to exterminate the Palestinian people, has sentenced the two Israeli teenagers who carried out the murder of Abu Khdeir. That is pretty good news. Did anything ever happen to the police officers who tried to beat a US citizen into confessing that Abu had been killed by his family for being gay?
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Feb 4, 2016 18:01
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Kajeesus posted:That is pretty good news. Did anything ever happen to the police officers who tried to beat a US citizen into confessing that Abu had been killed by his family for being gay? Nothing so far as I'm aware. I also didn't see anything about the teenagers' families' houses/apartments being scheduled for demolition. Any info on that, TIC, considering the article forget to mention it?
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Feb 4, 2016 18:09
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An ex-Border Patrol officer who beat up a Palestinian for laughing at him has lost his appeal and will therefore be forced to serve out his sentence of 300 hours of community service. Another Border Patrol officer has been indicted for secretly photographing the IDs of Jewish women traveling with Arab men and sending them to Lehava and other far-right groups. A police investigation of 15 supposed land purchases by settler organizations in the West Bank has discovered that none of them were valid, and 14 out of the 15 were outright fraudulent. In some, the settlers bribed a Palestinian to sign for the sale of land he didn't own; in others, the signature was outright faked. When asked for comment by the media, the organization's spokesperson denied everything and accused journalists of "racism and anti-Semitism of the most vile sort".
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Feb 4, 2016 18:13
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Main Paineframe posted:When asked for comment by the media, the organization's spokesperson denied everything and accused journalists of "racism and anti-Semitism of the most vile sort". TIC?
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Feb 4, 2016 18:27
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The Insect Court posted:In other news the Zionist octopus, as part of its sinister plot to exterminate the Palestinian people, has sentenced the two Israeli teenagers who carried out the murder of Abu Khdeir. This is good news, but the reason you won't see it changing people's negative opinion about Israel is because it doesn't represent a sea change in Israel's discriminatory legal treatment of Palestinians and Arabs. Singular instances of good policing and judging does not make the systematic issues disappear.
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Feb 4, 2016 19:01
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team overhead smash posted:This is good news, but the reason you won't see it changing people's negative opinion about Israel is because it doesn't represent a sea change in Israel's discriminatory legal treatment of Palestinians and Arabs. Singular instances of good policing and judging does not make the systematic issues disappear. To be fair it seems like they are starting to crack down on it.
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Feb 4, 2016 20:55
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How does the military have the authority to dictate what non-military civilians can and cannot say? Does the military pushing around non-Palestinian civilians and threatening them with legal repercussions happen often?
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Feb 4, 2016 21:42
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Alris posted:How does the military have the authority to dictate what non-military civilians can and cannot say? Does the military pushing around non-Palestinian civilians and threatening them with legal repercussions happen often? Yes. Israeli media has been subject to military censorship since Israel's founding, hate speech and support for terror is illegal (in practice this is 99.9999% only applied to the left/Palestinians, while right-wing neo-Kahanist hate groups like Lehava get state funding), and the Knesset has passed laws specifically restricting the right of speech on certain topics (for example it is illegal to advocate a boycott of West Bank settlement products in Israel). What's new/newsworthy is the military censor extending this to social media postings in a typically cack-handed and politically biased way.
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Feb 4, 2016 22:14
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Regarding the "Israel is focused on disproportionately" point, I think it definitely has some validity to it, but it isn't entirely (or even mostly) due to antisemitism. There are probably three main reasons you see such a big focus on Israel over, say, Saudi Arabia or something: 1. There's a very large number of people taking up the other side of the argument. This is probably the biggest reason, especially on a discussion forum like this. It isn't that interesting to discuss a bad country that most people recognize is bad. But if you talk about Israeli war crimes, there's always a very active opposition to keep the argument going and make people feel that there's a need to be persuasive in the first place (i.e. fewer people feel the need to reach out and inform others that Saudi Arabia is a poo poo country). 2. Israel is perceived as another "white/Western" country, even if this may not really match reality. Many people in the West tend to be far more interested in countries they perceive as being similar to their own committing crimes than countries they view as very alien/different. This is definitely completely illogical and isn't a good reason, but I can still understand why it happens. 3. Antisemitism. There's definitely a non-trivial percent of people who disproportionately criticize Israel who are motivated by antisemitism in some form, even if they don't actively hate all Jewish people (sort of like racists who like "the good ones" of a particular ethnicity). It's the sort of racism where the idea of Jewish people doing evil things intrinsically makes them angrier than the idea of (insert other race) doing evil things. I think that in this particular thread, however, this isn't a very significant factor. And, ultimately, antisemitism is a separate issue from the general topic of Israel's actions. Similar to the Imperial Japan/anti-Japanese sentiment example I gave a few pages back, arguments should just be dealt with on their own merits, and the fact that there are many antisemitic people does not somehow mean that it isn't also possible for Israel to be a bad country that commits war crimes. You might notice that I did not include "the US gives funding to Israel." This is because, while people often talk about it, I don't honestly believe that it's the main reason people focus on the country. To use the Saudi Arabia example again, the US also has a relatively close relationship with that country, but it doesn't receive the same focus. I think that people are often just grasping for some tangible, reasonable decision to why Israel is actually more important, when it really isn't. But they shouldn't need to defend against this point in the first place, since ultimately the question of whether they focus disproportionately on Israel is unrelated to whether the arguments they make are accurate. Anyways, while there's certainly a discussion to be had about how people devote their attention to different social issues, for the purposes of this thread it only makes sense to address specific arguments about Israel in particular. Provided someone is making an accurate argument against Israeli behavior, there isn't really any means (or need) to determine their motivations. If Israel were, in fact, innocent of the accusations levied against it, it should be possible to directly refute the accusations themselves. TIC likes to compare Israel with black people in the US, but the key difference is that it is entirely possible to refute the actual arguments racists make; it is not necessary to point out that they are racist to explain why they are wrong. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 00:28
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Yeah I would definitely put Saudi Arabia first on my list of countries that America should go tell to get hosed. Plenty here talk about that horrible poo poo hole in the ME Thread. Its just that this is the I/P thread so we don't talk about that poo poo hole and the idiocy wahabism) it spreads.
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Feb 5, 2016 01:16
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I think when a country is receiving $3 billion a year in military aid from your government that entitles you to hold it to higher standards, and maybe ask your government to stop giving them billions of dollars if they are poo poo Like the US does have a relationship with Saudi Arabia but the scale is just not remotely similar.
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Feb 5, 2016 03:10
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