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a moron but too stupid to know it...
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Feb 3, 2016 09:50
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Geriatric Pirate posted:It's not altruism, it's competition. And no matter how much you cry about it, it tends to work a lot better than letting bureaucrats run the show. I, too, think that competition will lower prices when we're talking about a natural monopoly. Geriatric Pirate posted:Anyway, in this case, the government decided to mandate huge investments (change in some requirements required updating a lot of the infra) the year after it privatized the company. So no poo poo prices would increase. Lol if you think it would have worked differently with a valtionyhtio. If the government was running the show it could easily mitigate the hit to the consumers if it wanted to, so congratulations on being totally wrong I guess?
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Feb 3, 2016 10:04
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Voi vittu, nyt ne ääliöt on menneet riivaamaan EuroPolia jutuillaan. "Örrrr, jos Tanskassa turvikset saa samaa kohtelua kuin kantikset se on natzismia ja fascistista hitler -toimintaa". Äkkiä, perustakaa ruotsalaisille ja norjalaisille natsi-salaliittonörteille joku oma ketju missä ne voivat huutaa toisilleen päät punaisena.
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Feb 3, 2016 10:46
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Cerebral Bore posted:I, too, think that competition will lower prices when we're talking about a natural monopoly. It's competition over capital, not customers. The way it works is that Caruna is owned by a foreign holding group that gives it a big loan with a big fat interest rate. Caruna deducts the interest from its taxes, and the holding group enjoys the nice returns. One way for it to work differently would be for Caruna to reinvest its earnings instead of spending them on interest - but this could have an adverse impact on Caruna's ability to raise capital and/or on the future purchasing power of Canadian pensioners among other interested groups.
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Feb 3, 2016 11:41
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One way to work it would be nationalize it and liquidate any complainers.
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Feb 3, 2016 11:46
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What is Caruna's ROI over the last few years?
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Feb 3, 2016 11:49
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The sooner we get rid of the farce known as corporate income tax, the better. It doesn't work in a globalized world, and it really doesn't make sense for companies to pay tax either when you can tax the owners and workers. Cerebral Bore posted:I, too, think that competition will lower prices when we're talking about a natural monopoly. The government is "running the show", they're the ones who dictate how much profit Caruna and other similar companies can make. If you knew anything about this case, you'd realize that Caruna (as a natural monopoly) is already heavily regulated and the profit they can make (as a percentage of capital employed) is capped by the government. It just so happened that the government told the companies that they had to invest heavily (i.e. employ more capital), so companies raised prices to meet this percentage. Also the always benevolent government did raise the percentage in order to encourage investments. Herman Merman posted:What is Caruna's ROI over the last few years?
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Feb 3, 2016 11:59
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The sooner we get rid of the farce known as corporate income tax, the better. It doesn't work in a globalized world, and it really doesn't make sense for companies to pay tax either when you can tax the owners and workers. No, let's rather change the corporate tax system such that the profit has to be fully shown in the same jurisdiction where the business takes place. Geriatric Pirate posted:The government is "running the show", they're the ones who dictate how much profit Caruna and other similar companies can make. If you knew anything about this case, you'd realize that Caruna (as a natural monopoly) is already heavily regulated and the profit they can make (as a percentage of capital employed) is capped by the government. It just so happened that the government told the companies that they had to invest heavily (i.e. employ more capital), so companies raised prices to meet this percentage. Also the always benevolent government did raise the percentage in order to encourage investments.
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Feb 3, 2016 12:31
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The sooner we get rid of the farce known as corporate income tax, the better. It doesn't work in a globalized world, and it really doesn't make sense for companies to pay tax either when you can tax the owners and workers. Yes, because obviously taxing the poor who can't hide their income in tax havens is better than closing the loops in the Finnish tax system. Basically what Herman Merman said.
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Feb 3, 2016 12:39
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Pussy Noise posted:Which part? suomessa ei ole viimeisimpien jääkausien vuoksi placer-malmeja muuta kuin nimeksi ja muutaman äijän kullanhuuhdontaprojektiksi. suomessa malmia ei käytännössä etsitä taikka louhita maaperästä, vaan kallioperästä. suomen kallioperä on kartoitettu pääasiassa 50-70-luvuilla vähän sinne päin, joten käytännössä kartoitettavaa riittää vaikka kuinka. suurin osa suomen kallioperästä on sitä paitsi moreenin, soran, sammalen, turpeen ja veden peitossa, joten suomen täydellinen kartoitus on jo lähtökohtasesti fyysisesti mahdotonta. valtausoikeus on vanhan kaivoslain (1965) termistöä, jota vastaa nykyään parhaiten varmaan varaus, joka oikeuttaa Tukes posted:Malminetsintälupahakemuksen valmistelua varten hakija voi varata itselleen alueen tekemällä asiasta ilmoituksen kaivosviranomaiselle (varausilmoitus). Varausilmoitukseen perustuva etuoikeus on voimassa, kun varausilmoitus on tehty kaivoslaissa (621/2011) säädetyllä tavalla (44 §) eikä varauksen hyväksymiselle ole kaivoslaissa säädettyä estettä. Tukes posted:Malminetsintäluvan nojalla luvanhaltijalla on oikeus omalla ja toisen maalla luvassa tarkoitetulla alueella (malminetsintäalue) tutkia geologisten muodostumien rakenteita ja koostumusta. Luvanhaltijalla on myös oikeus tehdä muita kaivostoimintaa valmistelevia tutkimuksia ja muuta malminetsintää esiintymän paikallistamiseksi sekä sen laadun, laajuuden ja hyödyntämiskelpoisuuden selvittämiseksi malminetsintäluvan mukaisesti. muutenkin mainittu 14% on muistaakseni urbaanilegenda. lisäksi maailman suurimmat louhijat ovat australia, brasilia, jenkit, kanada ja kiina, joten miksi suomea verrataan aina afrikkaan? suomen vertaaminen afrikkaan paljastaa vain lähinnä kirjoittajan rassisti fasistiset ennakkoluulot afrikasta. miksi afrikka on automaagisesti paha? Fushigi Yuugi fansub fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 12:44
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Kiitos, tmyk!
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Feb 3, 2016 13:19
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http://www.presidentti.fi/public/default.aspx?contentid=341374&nodeid=44810&contentlan=1&culture=fi-FI Oh no what a terrible racist
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Feb 3, 2016 14:07
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Double Bill posted:http://www.presidentti.fi/public/default.aspx?contentid=341374&nodeid=44810&contentlan=1&culture=fi-FI What a Ligur, I hope he gets banned from the YK for being racist
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Feb 3, 2016 14:14
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The sooner we get rid of the farce known as corporate income tax, the better. It doesn't work in a globalized world, and it really doesn't make sense for companies to pay tax either when you can tax the owners and workers. Corporations are people, my friend.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:35
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Herman Merman posted:That sounds like an exceedingly bad idea in the case of capital-intensive businesses with owners residing in tax havens! Accidental, I'm sure. And exactly how would you show where the profit originates? Starbucks' profits in Finland are due to the Starbucks brand, not their operations in Finland for example. If Nokia does 50% of it's R&D in Silicon Valley and 50% in Finland and then makes a sale to a global conglomerate, where do you tax that? It's immensely complicated and in the end will go nowhere as companies keep relocating, hiding businesses etc while we're stuck with huge rising costs of enforcement. No, just tax the owners. And for those owners who are substituting their labor income for capital income, these are normally smaller businesses and with them it would be much easier to bust them for tax evasion. Also, they aren't as capable of relocating. Darkest Auer posted:Yes, because obviously taxing the poor who can't hide their income in tax havens is better than closing the loops in the Finnish tax system. Speaking of tax evasion by Caruna, another great blog post by Asiaton on the topic, debunking the line of thought that leftists usually have about how "OMG WE SOLD ANOTHER CASH PRODUCING GOVERNMENT ASSET  ":http://asiatonlehdistokatsaus.blogspot.com/2016/02/onko-valia-maksaako-caruna-veroa-vai-ei.html Of course, since Caruna was spun off from a valtionyhtiö with private operations instead of the government directly, it's not that straightforward but reading it would probably still have positive educational value for most posters here. Geriatric Pirate fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 15:34
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Double Bill posted:http://www.presidentti.fi/public/default.aspx?contentid=341374&nodeid=44810&contentlan=1&culture=fi-FI I don't much care for Sauli, but based on a quick read that seems completely reasonable. The way the refugee crisis is currently handled will benefit no one, except maybe the smugglers.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:45
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Enough people on the internet, at least my internet, seem to now consider Sauli (along with Teemu) dangerous racist fascist hitlers and keep on going about the danger Soldiers of Mörökölli poses for society with even more relentless abandon. It's almost like they are doing somekind of "tyhmä suvakki" performance in which all stereotypes and inane talking points must be repeated as often as possible. And they obviously feel glorious while doing it. "Apua kulkutauti on saapumassa!" "Älä kitise. On meillä ennenkin ollut nälänhätä ja maanjäristys."
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Feb 3, 2016 15:56
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Where do you internet?
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Feb 3, 2016 16:03
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Ligur posted:Enough people on the internet, at least my internet, seem to now consider Sauli (along with Teemu) dangerous racist fascist hitlers and keep on going about the danger Soldiers of Mörökölli poses for society with even more relentless abandon. what's you're point
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Feb 3, 2016 16:47
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Hopefully the president will condemn the president's hate speech. And he didn't even mention the biggest threat to this country, a handful of bored white men walking in the streets.
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Feb 3, 2016 17:17
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Geriatric Pirate posted:And exactly how would you show where the profit originates? Starbucks' profits in Finland are due to the Starbucks brand, not their operations in Finland for example. If Nokia does 50% of it's R&D in Silicon Valley and 50% in Finland and then makes a sale to a global conglomerate, where do you tax that? Geriatric Pirate posted:No, just tax the owners.
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Feb 3, 2016 17:28
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Speaking of tax evasion by Caruna, another great blog post by Asiaton on the topic, debunking the line of thought that leftists usually have about how "OMG WE SOLD ANOTHER CASH PRODUCING GOVERNMENT ASSET They completely ignore the most pressing point, namely that a natural monopoly should never have been sold to a private owner, domestic or foreign, in the first place. Also the fact that accurately estimating the net present value of future taxes is extremely hard or outright impossible, and cannot take into account e.g. future changes in tax rates. So yeah, typical libertarian pap based on a hanken101 understanding of economics.
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Feb 3, 2016 17:46
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Herman Merman posted:If the operations are in Finland, you tax the entire profit in Finland. I don't care where they do their R&D or branding work. If the conglomerate wants to deduct R&D or other expenses they should provide an audited financial statement outlining those expenses, which can then be proportionally deducted in all the countries they make sales in. That's literally what companies already do. That's the Dutch sandwich / double Irish etc. The R&D etc is charged from the Finnish company. Of course it's not just charged by expenses but there's a profit there as well, which you kind of expect if you invest in R&D. You just assume that this can be simply taxed and other countries won't immediately dispute everything (after all, if some country hosts all the R&D of course they expect the tax from profits since they provide everything) and everyone will agree to proportionality. Or that it wont be a huge expense to track it all and negotiate each company's share. It's just stupid. You're already double taxing, corporate taxes add a third layer of tax, cost a lot to enforce, discourage investment and create huge competition between countries to offer the lowest tax rates so companies chase tax rates instead of the best places to do business. They overwhelmingly favor large multinationals and hurt smaller companies. Also, I don't give a poo poo about how much tax people living in other countries pay to Finland. They don't use our social services, they don't owe us anything. Ofc checks like needing to prove you have weak ties to Finland are necessary to avoid temporary tax exile, but we hav had those for ages.
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Feb 3, 2016 17:57
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Speaking of tax evasion by Caruna, another great blog post by Asiaton on the topic, debunking the line of thought that leftists usually have about how "OMG WE SOLD ANOTHER CASH PRODUCING GOVERNMENT ASSET Well there's a blog post where notorious neoliberalist rear end in a top hat Heikki Pursiainen whips up a completely insane example and finishes it off with "well yeah this isn't how things actually work but better believe it", golly gee whiskers
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Feb 3, 2016 17:58
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Herman Merman posted:They completely ignore the most pressing point, namely that a natural monopoly should never have been sold to a private owner, domestic or foreign, in the first place. Also the fact that accurately estimating the net present value of future taxes is extremely hard or outright impossible, and cannot take into account e.g. future changes in tax rates. So yeah, typical libertarian pap based on a hanken101 understanding of economics. And you're completely ignoring the fact that the monopoly was sold with regulations on maximum profits and the government was the one who changed these and forced the new investments to be made. Also lol @ estimating the NPV is difficult. Aside from the fact that it's relatively trivial (you know profit, tax rate, and can easily estimate the value of the business with and without these because cash flows are super stable) it's also irrelevant. Just because a calculation can't be done easily doesn't change their point at all. Which is that the buyers knew they wouldn't pay taxes, so they estimated the value of the company without taxes.
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Feb 3, 2016 18:04
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Very happy people are coming out and condemning the hate speech our fascist president started spewing. Talk about showing your true cock colours, I'm surprised it took this long. IMO there should be an international law that forbids the election of fascists.
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Feb 3, 2016 18:04
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ALLAN LASSUS posted:Well there's a blog post where notorious neoliberalist rear end in a top hat Heikki Pursiainen whips up a completely insane example and finishes it off with "well yeah this isn't how things actually work but better believe it", golly gee whiskers Oh sorry instead we should let goons with no training in (or understanding of) economics continue to misunderstand basic things and make dumb logical errors BECAUSE WE NEED MORE GOVERNMENT
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Feb 3, 2016 18:05
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Geriatric Pirate posted:That's literally what companies already do. That's the Dutch sandwich / double Irish etc. The R&D etc is charged from the Finnish company. Of course it's not just charged by expenses but there's a profit there as well, which you kind of expect if you invest in R&D. For concrete things like loans I suppose you can use the current transfer pricing system, but with the market based pricing principle actually enforced. Geriatric Pirate posted:You just assume that this can be simply taxed and other countries won't immediately dispute everything (after all, if some country hosts all the R&D of course they expect the tax from profits since they provide everything) and everyone will agree to proportionality. Or that it wont be a huge expense to track it all and negotiate each company's share.  all they want.Chasing the cheapest corporate tax rate does not help at all. If you want to have sales in Finland, you pay the Finnish corporate tax rate.
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Feb 3, 2016 18:11
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Nuke the tax havens
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Feb 3, 2016 18:16
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https://eumostwanted.eu/
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Feb 3, 2016 18:24
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Herman Merman posted:Not what I proposed at all. The international conglomerate profit is sales minus expenses. R&D is an expense. Sales happen in individual countries. Expenses may be deducted proportionally to sales, the rest is taxed with the local corporate tax rate. Tax havens? You know Finland just as an example makes a ton of money off of R&D that's been done here and then turned into profitable products? Let alone some place like US, which unlike Finland can also easily tell people to gently caress off when Finland says "no, Starbuck's sales in Finland clearly have nothing to do with the brand capital Starbucks has accumulated abroad" or something about Apple's profit margin being attributable to work Apple has done in the US. If you have sales in Finland, you pay the Finnish value added tax. That's a fairly easy way to tax sales without a need for huge armies of lawyers and accountants. It already exists. It's not perfect and it has a lot of negative externalities, but it's a hell of a lot easier than trying to figure out where a company's profits are attributable in a global economy.
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Feb 3, 2016 18:40
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http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/art-1454411408275.htmlquote:Jos maailman köyhimpiin valtioihin kuuluva Uganda pystyy vastaanottamaan puoli miljoonaa pakolaista vuodessa ja antamaan palaajille maatilkun, miksi me emme pysty antamaan edes minimiä, Hemberg kysyi. I think that's a valid point, we should take in a lot more refugees and give them a piece of land. And nothing else. I suspect that would solve our immigrant crisis pretty fast.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:03
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Puistokemisti posted:http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/art-1454411408275.html Joo, annetaan niille kaikille maatilkku Pohjanmaalta
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Feb 3, 2016 19:46
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HerraS posted:Joo, annetaan niille kaikille maatilkku Pohjanmaalta haha olin juuri kirjoittamassa samaa mun puolesta niille voisi antaa myös paikallisia palvelijoita
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Feb 3, 2016 19:49
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Oh sorry instead we should let goons with no training in (or understanding of) economics continue to misunderstand basic things and make dumb logical errors BECAUSE WE NEED MORE GOVERNMENT I was about to ask if you've read his recent insane neoliberalist ramblings on the Libera site about deregulation of apothecaries or university tuition fees or other, erm, issues he has but then I remembered who I'm talking to so nevermind
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Feb 3, 2016 19:53
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ALLAN LASSUS posted:I was about to ask if you've read his recent insane neoliberalist ramblings on the Libera site about deregulation of apothecaries or university tuition fees or other, erm, issues he has but then I remembered who I'm talking to so nevermind Do you actually have an issue with the logic of tax avoidance being included in the price that Fortum received for their sähkönsiirto company or are you just going to keep posting "well he's a neoliberal  " while still being clueless?
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Feb 3, 2016 20:02
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Li Andersson of the Left Alliance has declared that he will run for party leadership. Those party elections will be held sometime not soon.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:06
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Rexroom posted:Li Andersson of the Left Alliance has declared that he will run for party leadership. I knew LA was the party for all the people with weird sexual identities but this is too much.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:18
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li <3 #perustulo #feminismi #ympäristö #elvytys #koulutus #liittoutumattomuus welcome to the future of LA
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Feb 3, 2016 20:22
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HerraS posted:I knew LA was the party for all the people with weird sexual identities but this is too much. hey you lookin' for a good time? Hey soldja boy. soldja boy me suck your dick? Sucky suck suck you?
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Feb 3, 2016 20:44
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