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chitoryu12 posted:
Being not that bad wasn't about luck, it was because the FBI avoided doing what you were (and now are again) crying about them not doing. Playing the long game is what achieved that resolution. But here we are, full circle back at "look how these guys just get to do whatever they want because they're white".
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Feb 3, 2016 13:45
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The following quote from a CNN interview with the 18 year old in Finicum's truck is a demonstration of how little reality matters to what I call an Outer Narrative. Despite being shown the video of what happened the girl refuses to admit that Finicum was reaching for his pockets.CNN posted:"He had his hands up," Sharp said. "He was shouting that if they were going to shoot, then just shoot him. I remember him saying that if they shoot him, it's an innocent man's blood on their hands." I really feel for that poor girl. She was raised by crazies and just happened to be around when reality crushed the delusions of the authority figures in her life. I don't blame her for what she is doing here, at 18 I would have probably doesn't the same thing. Finicum is a loathesome bastard for putting innocent bystanders through this. His stupid hero fantasy has done much more than just get his own pathetic rear end killed.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:07
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when i was a little kid living in maryland i saw that peeking over the trees once and i thought my dad was taking me to disney world Geostomp posted:They don't want government or even reality. They want a strange fantasy land where hey get to be brave heroes in the promised land that defeat evil. they should play world of warcraft
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Feb 3, 2016 14:12
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Recollection bias isn't uncommon though even in completely rational actors. People struggle to reconcile what they believe they've witnessed with what other sources might reveal even when presented with it. Particularly in traumatic experiences, which witnessing someone they knew and had recently been in close quarters with being shot in front of them would certainly count as.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:14
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Prester Jane posted:The following quote from a CNN interview with the 18 year old in Finicum's truck is a demonstration of how little reality matters to what I call an Outer Narrative. Despite being shown the video of what happened the girl refuses to admit that Finicum was reaching for his pockets. It's also possible she's trying to avoid implicating herself/others in any real or imagined crimes that they took part in. Of all the people to have a skewed version of events, I'm more forgiving to the teenager who watched a man die before being flashbanged. It's one thing for us to say he brought it on himself, it's another for someone who was probably chatting amiably to him less than half an hour before it happened.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:16
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Thank Christ the feds got video of the incident. I shudder to think how much worse a white Michael Brown situation would have set off these people and then some.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:21
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I'm beginning to wonder if releasing the video did any good at all. The only people that thought he was murdered or whatever were never going to be convinced anyway.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:28
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Jumpingmanjim posted:I'm beginning to wonder if releasing the video did any good at all. The only people that thought he was murdered or whatever were never going to be convinced anyway. It's not about the total whackaloons -- the goal is to prevent normal people from thinking that maybe the militia people are actually right about something for once.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:31
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Tarp man could have shot and killed someone and they'd still call him the victim.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:33
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Skinty McEdger posted:Recollection bias isn't uncommon though even in completely rational actors. People struggle to reconcile what they believe they've witnessed with what other sources might reveal even when presented with it. Particularly in traumatic experiences, which witnessing someone they knew and had recently been in close quarters with being shot in front of them would certainly count as. This is an entirely valid point and I must concede that Occam's Razor cuts against me in this instance.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:33
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Dragonstoned posted:Tarp man could have shot and killed someone and they'd still call him the victim. "See what you made me do!?"
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Feb 3, 2016 14:33
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Jumpingmanjim posted:I'm beginning to wonder if releasing the video did any good at all. The only people that thought he was murdered or whatever were never going to be convinced anyway. It might have been the Feds mistake to release the video so late, as it gave all of the brainwashed idiots a good chance to absorb the "murdered" narrative and decide what reality was before actually seeing it. Even on Freep though, some old men are saying that after watching the video that Mr. Tarp hosed up and shouldn't have made the movements he did, even if they don't specifically say that he was going for a gun. I doubt that would have happened without the video.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:34
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kartikeya posted:You know how the militias love claiming false flags? I don't think Finnicum actually died, and it's a government conspiracy for Obama's Gun Seizure Plan. Tell the militia members to stop taking the cover-up money and hiding the truth from the real American public.
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Feb 3, 2016 14:35
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Prester Jane posted:The following quote from a CNN interview with the 18 year old in Finicum's truck is a demonstration of how little reality matters to what I call an Outer Narrative. Despite being shown the video of what happened the girl refuses to admit that Finicum was reaching for his pockets. Yeah, this thing also appeared in the "radio" interview that Blaine Cooper did a few days ago. He and the interviewer had both watched the video and concluded that Finnacum's hands were up the entire time. I've had lots of discussions with loons over the years - creationists and climate deniers particularly spring to mind - but the prevalence of people who will outright deny incontrovertible evidence (as opposed to heading directly for the nearest gap) seems to have increased dramatically in the last couple. I don't know if that's because the proper idiots only figured out how to communicate over the internet recently or if it's a cultural change, but if there has been a shift from dishonest engagement with reality to complete disengagement from it then that's quite worrying.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:00
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Mr. Pumroy posted:when i was a little kid living in maryland i saw that peeking over the trees once and i thought my dad was taking me to disney world akadajet posted:It's a popular thing for parents to tell kids around here that it's disneyland. when I first moved up here in 2007 I was lost going around the beltway at night and was pretty amazed at it popping up out of nowhere. It's very striking. 
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Feb 3, 2016 15:01
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Takoluka posted:I don't think Finnicum actually died, and it's a government conspiracy for Obama's Gun Seizure Plan. Tell the militia members to stop taking the cover-up money and hiding the truth from the real American public. yeah its pretty obvious Finnicum was just a crisis act the entire time. In fact its pretty obvious that every single Militia member apart from one very paranoid patriot is actually in the employ of the FBI. This new right wing extremist remake of the Truman show is looking good!
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Feb 3, 2016 15:06
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It worked, David Fry is now terrified of roadblocks and will not risk running one and hitting the edge of the "Malheur" dome. His stream is down due to the broadcasters' bidding war for the rights to show it.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:16
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Prester Jane posted:The following quote from a CNN interview with the 18 year old in Finicum's truck is a demonstration of how little reality matters to what I call an Outer Narrative. Despite being shown the video of what happened the girl refuses to admit that Finicum was reaching for his pockets. After I read your description of the "outer narrative," I realized that the changing and contradictory daily narratives from financial analysts explaining the movement of the stock market that day fits the bill very well.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:22
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Murderion posted:It worked, David Fry is now terrified of roadblocks and will not risk running one and hitting the edge of the "Malheur" dome. His stream is down due to the broadcasters' bidding war for the rights to show it. looks like Oregon has 'Son of Sam' laws in place (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/son-of-sam-statutes-federal-and-state-summary) so I take it even if the 'bidding war' isn't bullshit, he wouldn't see a dime of any broadcasting rights cash from it?
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Feb 3, 2016 15:29
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dr_rat posted:looks like Oregon has 'Son of Sam' laws in place (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/son-of-sam-statutes-federal-and-state-summary) so I take it even if the 'bidding war' isn't bullshit, he wouldn't see a dime of any broadcasting rights cash from it? I think he was riffing on the Truman Show reference.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:32
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FetusSlapper posted:I think he was riffing on the Truman Show reference. Ah, fair enough. Glad to see the world isn't quite at the 'This Official Militia Federal land reserve 2016 takeover podcast was sponsored by audible, the true patriots first choice for purchasing audio books only.' stage yet. I give it ten more years.
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Feb 3, 2016 15:59
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Martin Random posted:After I read your description of the "outer narrative," I realized that the changing and contradictory daily narratives from financial analysts explaining the movement of the stock market that day fits the bill very well. Well, yeah. Outside of the banking cartels that do the money movement (and cook the books to enrich themselves on currency trading) the entire financial sector is entirely a faith-based institution, where prophets claim to read golden tablets in their hats that tell them the future of a stock/commodity and will share this information with you for a price. Ok, they're ipads on their desk, but same deal.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:42
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akadajet posted:when I first moved up here in 2007 I was lost going around the beltway at night and was pretty amazed at it popping up out of nowhere. It's very striking. As a kid I believed the temple was powered by all the lightning strikes that hit the angel (Moroni?). It was easily the tallest thing for miles.
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Feb 3, 2016 16:45
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Halloween Jack posted:I understand both groups are paranoid about the federal government, but I had the impression that the Southern bigots identified with and used existing local authorities while resenting federal authority, and took more collective actions backed by what they perceived as the moral force of society. Whereas when I think of bigots in Western states I think more of Ruby Ridge or "lone wolves with a death wish," as PJ put it. The Southern bigots identified with local authority mostly because the local power-holders were the ones to appoint local authority. Plantation owners were practically feudal nobles, and both corruption and the "good old boys" network were rampant. On top of that, the long culture of white supremacy combined with the significant size (and therefore potential political power) of the black population in the South combined to put a lot of whites supporting those local power structures in their efforts to overthrow authorities. Local authorities weren't really safe from that either, it was just the conflict was much briefer there because they were much easier to sway, rig, or slaughter with no consequences, so the conflict between local power-holders and local authorities ended almost as soon as it began. If they had a problem with the local sheriff candidate, the local elites had no qualms about stuffing ballot boxes, fixing elections, or outright overthrowing an undesirable sheriff by force and installing one they liked better. Remember how, when the local sheriff didn't cooperate with them, the occupiers cried that he was not living up to his duty to do whatever they want, and called for a citizens' committee or whatever to go arrest him by force? That's the kind of thing that would have really happened in the deep South 150 years ago...except that back then, federal troops wouldn't show up for a week afterward, most of them wouldn't be charged with any crime, and even if they were the Supreme Court would probably throw out the charges. The West's history is a lot different, in that in many places there wasn't really much of a local authority at all until relatively recently. The low population densities and relative youth of the settlements meant that ranchers had to put up with very little outside control at all. Intel&Sebastian posted:Ok, but at what point does actual, real life poo poo like his ranch standoff and Malheur rise to the same level of concern as hypothetical bloodshed? It doesn't. Ever. A bunch of guys standing around in the woods with guns livestreaming themselves shouting threats at every tree they think a cop is behind are never going to be even half as big a concern as the quiet, slightly creepy guy who's holed up in his hotel room in Burns building improvised explosives, believing that the occupation will trigger the federal government to enslave all Americans and envisioning himself as the lone hero who will wreak a bloody vengeance against City Hall if the cops dare to brutalize the occupiers. Just look at what happened when the cops moved against the occupiers - a bunch more militants arrived in Burns and started acting up in Burns itself. Now instead of a controlled situation in the middle of the woods, there's more people there than before, and they're making their stand in town. Kazak_Hstan posted:Speedy trial is a fair point, but if the DoJ doesn't have a chargeable case at this point then wtf? You're wrong. It's not that everyone needs to be prosecuted, it's that everyone needs to be convicted of at least one felony with a meaningful prison sentence - and that's a much, much higher bar to clear. If the government charges Cliven with something, and the judge dismisses half the charges or hits him with a slap on the wrist at best, then that is way worse than not charging him in the first place - it essentially validates his behavior in a court of law, and encourages both him and his followers to greater deeds. Same goes for all his bodyguards. And, per Hutaree, the government is not allowed to assume or conjecture things or extend others' behavior to him when charging him, so it's really not as much of a slam dunk as you might think. For example, Pete Santelli might very well have gotten away scot-free if the FBI hadn't waited until he filmed himself telling other militants what to do, which provided ironclad evidence that he was directly involved in the conspiracy and agreed with it, since (believe it or not) his mere presence there and participation in the occupation is not necessarily sufficient evidence of those things. Mr Interweb posted:Sure, but what I don't get is why it's taking so long to go after Cliven, when his sons were taken down in a month. Isn't two years more than enough time to establish that yes, Cliven is an rear end in a top hat who needs action to be taken upon by the government? Being an rear end in a top hat isn't illegal, and neither is anti-government rhetoric - even if you are openly calling for the deaths of police officers and the overthrow of the federal government. His actual crimes basically come down to impeding government officials a couple of times, and possibly conspiracy to do so (although there likely isn't enough evidence to beat the Hutaree precedent).
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Feb 3, 2016 17:01
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Xand_Man posted:As a kid I believed the temple was powered by all the lightning strikes that hit the angel (Moroni?). It was easily the tallest thing for miles. I saw it and thought there was a Medieval Times there! I was pumped because I lived i Anaheim as a kid and that place was dope. Turns out there's one in Baltimore so I just went there instead of finding out what that was.
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Feb 3, 2016 17:06
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Didn't someone say earlier in the thread that the chance was pretty high that most of these wing nut gently caress sticks had their 2nd Amendment rights taken away and shouldn't possess firearms? http://www.rawstory.com/2016/02/jailed-oregon-militants-have-extensive-criminal-histories-many-arent-even-allowed-to-carry-guns/
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Feb 3, 2016 17:22
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Mr. Belding posted:But if those hundred guilty men each commit crimes that damage 100 other innocent men then we perhaps sacrifice 1000 lines when only one could have been lost otherwise, and so your cliche crumbled under the weight of math, logic, and 4 seconds of relatively disinterested scrutiny. 100 times 100 is not 1000 math genius
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Feb 3, 2016 17:39
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Since Huttaree keeps being referenced as though John Roberts wrote it on stone tablets and hand delivered it to the FBI, this seems like a good time to remind people that a district court in Michigan does not create binding precedent on any court anywhere, much less another district court in an entirely different circuit. it is something for the government to consider, however, there are two entirely separate month-long overt acts in furtherance when it comes to the Bundys. The problem with imputing the actions of other people to a conspirator lies in the question whether there is actually a criminal agreement. You cannot prove individual A agreed to be part of a conspiracy through the actions of person B C and D (well you can, but not in the way the government tried in Huttaree). There has to be evidence that person A agreed to be part of the criminal agreement on his own. There is ample evidence of that here - for instance, the government's detention motion mentioned Payne and Cliven coordinating how to get the militia to achieve Bundy's aims at Bunkerville. The Bundys made multiple public statements identifying themselves as working in concert with various armed groups toward the achievement of illegal aims. it is highly likely Cliven has had similar communications with people w/r/t Malheur. For christ's sake his website still has a post up directing people where to send aid to to the occupiers. Once the agreement to a joint criminal endeavor is established, the actions of others get attributed to all conspirators. That is a foundational principle of federal conspiracy law, dating to Pinkerton and with a long history of positive citation. I am not sure how you read Huttaree and concluded that it is now black letter law that people have to have a notarized declaration of their intent to join a conspiracy, or go on 60 minutes and recite the elements of a conspiracy offense and say "yep I did that" directly into the camera. That is simply not the case. It is possibly worth considering the merits of prosecuting someone who was at Malheur for a couple of days and didn't make media appearances. But that's laughable when it comes to anyone involved enough that we know their name at this point.
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Feb 3, 2016 17:41
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many johnnys posted:100 times 100 is not 1000 math genius That doesn't really help the original case. 😘
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Feb 3, 2016 17:48
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Mr. Belding posted:That doesn't really help the original case. 😘 Your case is "but if the people we don't arrest all suddenly start going crazy and slaughtering people it will be worse than attempting to arrest them" which is true, but also stupid to bring up
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Feb 3, 2016 18:05
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Xand_Man posted:As a kid I believed the temple was powered by all the lightning strikes that hit the angel (Moroni?). It was easily the tallest thing for miles. My parents were married there, this particular temple's look is about as familiar to me as the one in Salt Lake (which is, obviously, the one you see most often in pictures as a Mormon). Yeah, the angel statue is a depiction of Moroni. For the record, it's a different Moroni from the one 'Captain Moroni' (do we actually know who that guy was yet? Not one of the leaders, I guess) was naming himself after. The reason this statue is on all the temples is because according to the story of the LDS church's beginnings, Moroni is the angel who showed Joseph Smith where the golden plates (aka, what became the Book of Mormon) were located, because Moroni is the last guy to write in the actual book of Mormon, where he mostly wanders around talking about gospel things and being really lonely because he's one of the few survivors (or only survivor) of the collapse of his own society. Meanwhile: https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/694928925797928960 And the Oregonian reporter continues to be distracted by pie. I approve: https://twitter.com/LesZaitz/status/694729280429826048 Edit: Also, oh snap https://twitter.com/msbellows/status/694930586658406401 kartikeya fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 18:18
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theflyingorc posted:Your case is "but if the people we don't arrest all suddenly start going crazy and slaughtering people it will be worse than attempting to arrest them" Or maybe it's something reasonable like "some number of innocents are likely to be harmed in any functional legal system and it's possible if not likely that the optimal acceptable number is greater than zero". Now, if your interpretation is genuine then that would mean that you're loving stupid. If it's not genuine then you're just being a lovely troll. Either way, try to be a better person if you can manage (I doubt it).
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Feb 3, 2016 18:38
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Mr. Belding posted:Or maybe it's something reasonable like "some number of innocents are likely to be harmed in any functional legal system and it's possible if not likely that the optimal acceptable number is greater than zero". Hey, I don't know what you THINK you're saying, but it isn't being expressed through your text. You argued from a position of "the greater good" and talked about those we don't arrest killing lots of people. This is a dumb comparison when talking about arresting Cliven Bundy because: Number of people currently very likely to die because of Bundy: 0 Number of people likely to die during a raid on Bundy's ranch: A Few Dozen Number of people threatened by militia action in response to deaths during a raid on Bundy's ranch: Who even knows, potentially a lot
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Feb 3, 2016 18:51
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Hahaha the WA house rep who got his phony military record exposed when he took a trip to militialand just quit. Graham Hunt out of Orting if you want to pull up the stories.
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Feb 3, 2016 18:52
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Lmao another city council member said he told everyone he was a marine, and the head of the states libertarian party leaked a social media DM where he said he was shot in Iraq and stabbed in Afghanistan
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Feb 3, 2016 18:55
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Lmao another city council member said he told everyone he was a marine, and the head of the states libertarian party leaked a social media DM where he said he was shot in Iraq and stabbed in Afghanistan He was also choked in Thailand, but that wasn't related. 
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Feb 3, 2016 18:57
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Lmao another city council member said he told everyone he was a marine, and the head of the states libertarian party leaked a social media DM where he said he was shot in Iraq and stabbed in Afghanistan Stolen valor people are really, really weird. They're the grown up version of the kid whose dad works for Nintendo
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Feb 3, 2016 18:58
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Its not even like he had nothing to brag on. He was deployed to Dubai and a classified location. Sounds like he took the wiggle room from that last part and really REALLY ran with it.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:17
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Its not even like he had nothing to brag on. He was deployed to Dubai and a classified location. Sounds like he took the wiggle room from that last part and really REALLY ran with it. Yes but "my work was classified" is apparently, in that guy's mind, not as worthwhile as lying to claim "HELL YEAH I WAS JOHN GODDAMN RAMBO AND TOOK A BULLET FOR ARE FREEDUMS." Will a Democrat be replacing them? 
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Feb 3, 2016 19:24
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Evil Fluffy posted:Yes but "my work was classified" is apparently, in that guy's mind, not as worthwhile as lying to claim "HELL YEAH I WAS JOHN GODDAMN RAMBO AND TOOK A BULLET FOR ARE FREEDUMS." Will a Democrat be replacing them? Unlikely. His district is pretty rural, and he won his last election by a nearly 2:1 margin.
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Feb 3, 2016 19:31
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