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See, now, here's the thing: I agree with every single part of this post except for the last part of the last line. I get all that, but at least for me the ending seemed to stumble and trip over itself to the extent that it completely failed to sell it in lots of important ways. Just a difference of opinion, I guess.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:29
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Personally I think the ending mainly suffers from two things: Chloe's ending being rushed, and not enough done to cement the storm/Chloe/butterfly link in earlier episodes. I can also see why Ep5's gameplay would be really unfun for some people, though I didn't mind it. So I do see where you're coming from.
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Feb 3, 2016 20:45
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Lt. Danger posted:The story is about Max, not Arcadia Bay. It's a repudiation of self-conscious image-obsessed passive adolescence in favour of active engagement with the rest of the world. The ending where Max comes to accept the importance of how consequences affect others focuses only on Max. That's the part I thought fell flat. I got where the character arcs were coming from, heck I've posted some of the exact same things as you. The ideas weren't awful and they didn't come out of nowhere, they just didn't tie everything together enough and the episode has a bunch of clumsy scenes which left a poor taste in my mouth. The game is all about seeing the potential depth of these characters. The end feels too brief after how long the rest of the episode feels. The photo leaping was exhausting, but in a good way. The nightmare straddled the edge of good and dumb. Characters just popped in and out for reasons. The episode as a whole has uneven execution and by the ending I was pulled out of the game, so it was just "oh, okay".
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Feb 3, 2016 21:28
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A lot of what you say makes sense thematically, lt danger, but starting the series with a vision of devastation and THEN giving Max powers is a dishonest inference by the game that you will be using these powers to stop disaster, not that your actions cause disaster. The first episode writes a check, and the rest of the series signs a completely different check. It's not as dishonest as, say, Heavy Rain-- which outright lies directly at the player-- but it's still evidence, at least to me, that they did NOT have the full story planned out from the beginning like they claimed. If the game was ONLY about character interactions then it'd be different but the game is ALSO presented as essentially a murder mystery with a supernatural hook so when the solution is apparently "this all would have solved itself if you did nothing" i'm just kind of like fuuuuuuck youuuuuu. especially because episode 5 takes a lot of the fun of the mystery right out of it by revealing the villain immediately and turning him into some sort of vaudeville "I ALWAYS FEEL MYSELFIE AROUND YOU" act. Maybe you want to say "the murder mystery isn't the point" but it's that mystery that drives the player through most of the episodes, figuring out what the gently caress happened and what the gently caress is happening. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 21:34
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You literally everything you've done throughout the game and then change nothing. It's such a boring cliché ending people called it when episode 1 came out. Having the entire game be a dream Max had to try to get over Chloe's death would have been a better ending than this. Edit: like, the ultimate lesson isn't to learn from life but to just never do anything.
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Feb 3, 2016 21:49
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The other characters, the murder mystery, solving the disaster - these are superficialities. I mean that in the sense of being literal surface elements, the obvious mechanisms of the plot that we see at first glance. I don't approve of reading for superficialities on principle anyway, but Life is Strange is pretty clear throughout its episodes that you shouldn't be focusing primarily on questions like "where does the tornado come from?" or "what happens to this character?" Kate Marsh is probably the clearest example of how only reading surface elements causes problems. The other characters look at her and only see the superficialities: she's a Christian-girl-gone-wild, a Vortex groupie, a drunk slut, a pariah, now embarrassed into reticence. Victoria victimises her, David interrogates her, her mother disowns her, even Max kinda dismisses her behaviour as just a mood. By the end of Episode 2 we see the truth: she was drugged and abused, a victim of assault, a suicide risk. Looking at superficialities drives Kate to the roof. It's the deeper truths Max conveys to her ("you're not responsible for what happened" "we don't want you to die") that save her. But you knew all that already, right? So almost every character has a similar dynamic of presenting a false face that hides a true self. The hip teacher is a serial killer. The alpha bitch is hideously insecure of the geek. The preppy jock bully is a fragile, schizophrenic wreck. The bolshy punk chick is a wounded neurotic. The criminal drug dealer rescues fight dogs. The missing girl has a different personality for each clique. The quiet, reserved photography geek has an interminable internal monologue. Some characters aren't very good at hiding their true selves - Warren's crush is obvious, and Kate's depression is too, if only for us the audience - but others like Jefferson, Frank, Rachel and others are better at keeping their secrets. It's also why mental health difficulties and queer sexualities feature so prominently, being as they are largely invisible characteristics. Then there's the photo motif. Somebody earlier on pointed out that Jefferson and Max are linked by their photography, which I thought was really interesting. Art in general and photography in particular functions by (re)creating superficialities in the hopes of sparking a deeper emotional or intellectual resonance in the audience. Jefferson's insanity is that he's obsessed with the superficiality of his photos, specifically the concept of "the moment when innocence becomes corruption", and he feeds this obsession by kidnapping, drugging and violating young women. His villainy is that he transforms thinking, feeling individuals into props for his fetish, literal objects of his obsession. Max has a similar flaw, in that her selfie gimmick is all surface and no substance. She takes enough photos of herself for others to notice, but who is Max Caulfield? She's an empty shell, the standoffish geek too afraid to do anything in case it hurts or she looks stupid or someone disagrees with her. What does that make her self-portraits? It's also worth noting that her reserved, timid nature is what makes her so appealing to Jefferson's weird obsession. So I think it's interesting that in Episode 3 Max starts turning her photos into vectors for changing reality. A superficial 2D image of a moment transforms into a gateway to the past, in which Max can alter the past and present through meaningful, significant actions. I think it's also interesting that the story ends with Max tearing up her time-travel photos, her superficial representations of the past, and embracing the reality behind them in the form of the consequences that exist in the present. Based on this I think it's reasonable to say the story is ironically very open and honest about rejecting these superficial questions. This is not a whodunit for Rachel Amber, or an examination of the crude, mechanical logistics of time travel and tornado prevention, or a travelogue of Arcadia Bay and its quirky denizens. The deeper meanings of these events is what matters, and the relevant extended metaphors are clear and obvious. MonsieurChoc posted:You literally everything you've done throughout the game and then change nothing. It's such a boring cliché ending people called it when episode 1 came out. Having the entire game be a dream Max had to try to get over Chloe's death would have been a better ending than this. Hmm, sounds like you picked the Bad Ending my friend. But even if you do choose the wrong ending, Max still learns the lessons of the game: get involved, make decisions, don't hide, don't be afraid of consequences, for once in your goddamn life stop posing and engage with reality or life will leave you behind. Her week with Chloe still has meaning, even if it "canonically" did not happen. This is why she smiles on the bench at the lighthouse at the very end.
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Feb 3, 2016 23:11
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Lt. Danger posted:The other characters, the murder mystery, solving the disaster - these are superficialities. The mystery elements and other characters don't matter, which is why they're the game's primary way of getting you to play the next episode. Just because the characters turn to the camera and say "don't think too hard about it" doesn't mean I can't roll my eyes. Obviously questions like "where does the tornado come from" aren't that important thematically. But the "obvious plot mechanisms" are what gets the audience to engage with the story and are what guide us to the deeper ideas. Suspension of disbelief is important for stories, because a theme is an argument of an idea. If the reader thinks your story is silly, then the theme is muddied because how you arrived at your conclusion was trash. The events of the story are what communicate theme and make it believable. Handwaving an enormous chunk of what engages the players with the game as irrelevant seems pretty dishonest to me. You're reducing a story to a lecture. I'm not faulting the game for not explaining Max's powers or the tornado. I'm faulting the game for not making me believe them. There's so much extraneous stuff that is left dangling or rushed to conclusion or just badly done that I'm out of the story and the theme suffers because I'm asking questions I shouldn't be.
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Feb 4, 2016 00:57
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Lt. Danger posted:It is a good game, with a good ending. I still am not a fan personally of the ending, but I can see your points, even agree that it could be interpreted as a good story with a good ending. But not a good game. The idea is that you shouldn't try to avoid consequences to your actions and the rewind power is a crutch, but that's not generally reinforced in the gameplay. Instead, you're constantly rewarded for rewinding and avoiding negative consequences. That doesn't match up with the themes you bring up. The ludonarrative dissonance (sorry) is massive. Well... mostly. You could make the argument that most of those instances of being rewarded for being avoidant are minor, inconsequential things. You can look good to Alyssa or Juliet or whoever, but... who cares? You have friends with serious issues, maybe you should be worried about them, or even Victoria or something. And then, one of the biggest consequences in the game is Kate's roof scene, and in that case you can't use your crutch. Now the mechanics and the narrative themes are maybe starting to work together. Here's my question: Is it possible to get the info to save Kate without ever using your rewind powers? If you can, that's a pretty good instance of ludonarrative harmony.
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Feb 4, 2016 01:27
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The only time you MUST rewind when dealing with Kate (if only tangentially) is to prevent yourself from spilling soda all over the book that she leant you.
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Feb 4, 2016 01:59
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So I finally started playing this game and it's really rad and I like it a lot. Just finished episode one and apparently totally missed the fact that Chole's stepdad has "files' on people, which is a shame as I'd have loved to see them.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:53
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Cat Army 
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gently caress this is a drat good post. You are way better at plucking out hidden meaning than me! In an interview with Michel Koch he said that the ending where you Save Chloe wasn't rushed but that it was how they wanted to be. I feel like some people didn't believe him but you can only really take it on his word. It made sense to me when he was talking about it. Edit: Link for you if you care: https://soundcloud.com/kindafunnygames/life-is-strange-spoilercast-kinda-funny-gamescast-special The Iron Rose posted:So I finally started playing this game and it's really rad and I like it a lot. Just finished episode one and apparently totally missed the fact that Chole's stepdad has "files' on people, which is a shame as I'd have loved to see them. Don't stress too much, I believe you get a chance to look at them later. Also the best is yet to come!
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Feb 4, 2016 03:43
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also laughing at this post on page four:Shirley Crabtree posted:Really sorry to ruin the entire game series for everyone but it's basically Donnie Darko in that by visiting the bathroom at the start, after taking the picture of the butterfly by setting of the fire alarm and stopping her friend get shot she triggered a incredibly literal butterfly effect (the concept that something as little a butterfly beating it's wings can cause a massive storm somewhere through chain reaction) and that in the end, Donnie Darko style, Max will realise that the only way she can stop her town from getting destroyed by the huge storm is to turn back time (she will have learned how to do this by greater amounts by now, probably having gone to Arcadia point six months earlier to try and save Rachel) and not do anything to stop Chloe get shot and just let things be. It will be very emotional, the ultimate sacrifice, and we will all have a good cry about it but at the same time be like, wow. Like talk about prescient. Fortunately that's basically the only thing I've been spoiled on so everything else will be news!
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Feb 4, 2016 03:50
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The Iron Rose posted:also laughing at this post on page four: Ah that sucks. Still a good game though! There is a lot of cool stuff besides the ending.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:56
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LoseHound posted:Just because the characters turn to the camera and say "don't think too hard about it" doesn't mean I can't roll my eyes. Obviously questions like "where does the tornado come from" aren't that important thematically. But the "obvious plot mechanisms" are what gets the audience to engage with the story and are what guide us to the deeper ideas. Suspension of disbelief is important for stories, because a theme is an argument of an idea. If the reader thinks your story is silly, then the theme is muddied because how you arrived at your conclusion was trash. The events of the story are what communicate theme and make it believable. Handwaving an enormous chunk of what engages the players with the game as irrelevant seems pretty dishonest to me. You're reducing a story to a lecture. I'm trying to abstract this from the actual time powers discussion because that's a whole other basket of eggs!! The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 03:56
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Spoliers past here: lol someone was just talking about spoilers and there is a bit of a big one in this post.
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Feb 4, 2016 04:00
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Robiben posted:Spoliers past here: lol someone was just talking about spoilers and there is a bit of a big one in this post.
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Feb 4, 2016 04:13
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Quest For Glory II posted:To be honest the spoilers have been kind of fast and flying already, some people use the tags and some don't, I apologize if ppl get spoiled but that'll teach you to read my bad posts!! Yeah I guess you're right. I generally don't care too much about spoilers for myself but I get wary about other people. Your posts aren't bad, we just differ in our opinions.
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Feb 4, 2016 04:14
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Iron Rose is a big girl, she can handle untagged spoilers.
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Feb 4, 2016 04:32
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Work Hard Mustard Big
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Feb 4, 2016 04:40
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Robiben posted:Ah that sucks. Still a good game though! There is a lot of cool stuff besides the ending. The final choice was the one thing I had spoiled for me before I played the game, and honestly I suspect knowing it actually helped me enjoy the story and the articulation of that choice better. I came in already knowing how I was going to end it which meant I wasn't hung up on the parts that most often seem to upset people "you undo everything and/or everyone dies so nothing you did matters" etc., plus it lead me to interpret the story in a way that happened to resonate with me personally. I've always found the whole "I'm going to stand up for something precious and valuable (like say love) in defiance of the universe itself, no matter how terrible the consequences" idea darkly compelling, so even if Sacrificing Arcadia Bay isn't necessarily the moral choice, I like it better as a story.
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Feb 4, 2016 04:41
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Kotaku did a thing where they got fashion experts to review video game characters and they covered Chloe. quote:Lisa: I don’t know anything about Chloe but I assume she punches people who wear the band shirts of bands they don’t really listen to. Last chick nailed it.
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Feb 4, 2016 04:48
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Opposing Farce posted:The final choice was the one thing I had spoiled for me before I played the game, and honestly I suspect knowing it actually helped me enjoy the story and the articulation of that choice better. I came in already knowing how I was going to end it which meant I wasn't hung up on the parts that most often seem to upset people "you undo everything and/or everyone dies so nothing you did matters" etc., plus it lead me to interpret the story in a way that happened to resonate with me personally. I've always found the whole "I'm going to stand up for something precious and valuable (like say love) in defiance of the universe itself, no matter how terrible the consequences" idea darkly compelling, so even if Sacrificing Arcadia Bay isn't necessarily the moral choice, I like it better as a story. I vaguely knew Arcadia Bay could get destroyed and as it was getting closer to the end it dawned on me that we were going to have to Kill Chloe. Still made the choice hit pretty hard though. And although people disagreed with me, I still think fact that the ending split was really close to 50/50 is a great example of there being no "right" ending. I picked Sacrafice Chloe and was sure the ending split would be way more in favour of my choice but I think its a testament to Chloe as a character that people wanted to say "gently caress everything she's the most important thing in Max's life". The pictures in the Sacrifice Chloe ending burning up and reflecting the new events tore my fuckin heart out. The game should be called "Poor Max". Nameless Pete posted:Kotaku did a thing where they got fashion experts to review video game characters and they covered Chloe. God dammit Carina! I hate that she scored it low and I hate that she pointed out the Beanie thing. Robiben fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 04:52
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Robiben posted:The game should be called "Poor Max". gently caress that. If you choose to kill Chloe, she dies alone in a bathroom by a dude who, as far as she knows, tried to rape her, thinking her best friend has abandoned her, thinking her mother doesn't care about her, not knowing what happened to the woman she loved, doomed to be written off as just another troubled kid who got in over her head with drugs and bad behavior. Poor Max? Poor Chloe!
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Feb 4, 2016 05:09
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Plom Bar posted:gently caress that. Well I agree. But Chloe is dead. Max is the one that has to live with it. ALSO its a fantastical story in some way so Chloe is probably chilling in heaven or some poo poo. Isn't the butterfly meant to be her spirit? And again its another point in favour of the ending. Poor Chloe! But you can save her! Is it worth it? I won't lie though, it punched me in the gut pretty hard. Its the only game I can think of that actually made me think about taking the "bad" choice. Also this was the ending we were going to get at some point: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/o99wz
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Feb 4, 2016 05:22
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What makes people think that the Bae ending is the "bad" ending, aside from its relative brevity? Bullshit utilitarian ideology?
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Feb 4, 2016 05:32
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Beefstew posted:What makes people think that the Bae ending is the "bad" ending, aside from its relative brevity? Bullshit utilitarian ideology? Uh pretty much yes? If you are saving Chloe you are killing the rest of the town. The co-director mentioned that's why they don't show anything further with the characters there because they are gone and Max and Chloe are moving on. I mean of course sacrificing Chloe is the "right" thing to do. Chloe even agrees, she's willing to die to save the lives of a bunch of other people.
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Feb 4, 2016 05:37
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"Does she fight...or maybe mope around?" is a hilarious response to Chloe's character.Plom Bar posted:Iron Rose is a big girl, she can handle untagged spoilers. I couldn't.  Plom Bar posted:gently caress that. In addition: If you choose to kill Chloe, Joyce loses her only child, the last part of her old life with her first husband, who she says she never saw happy after William's death. Meanwhile, David, the paranoid military vet who wanted to protect his family was only a few feet away from his step-daughter getting shot. That entire family is hosed. Beefstew posted:What makes people think that the Bae ending is the "bad" ending, aside from its relative brevity? Bullshit utilitarian ideology? The game builds up a connection between nuking Arcadia Bay and angsty teen tantrums. It's also connected with a key point in Chloe's arc where she realizes how much of a poo poo she has been to her mom and step-dad and how she doesn't want them to die.
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Feb 4, 2016 05:39
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LoseHound posted:In addition: Is this better than them being dead? And it's not meant to be a happy ending. Max is a better person sure, and I guess you can assume she will support Joyce and David but poo poo is still hosed. But at least Max will come out of it stronger, not to mention Jefferson is arrested so no-one else will be hurt. Also Kate won't jump off a roof either.
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Feb 4, 2016 05:46
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Robiben posted:Is this better than them being dead? And it's not meant to be a happy ending. Max is a better person sure, and I guess you can assume she will support Joyce and David but poo poo is still hosed. But at least Max will come out of it stronger, not to mention Jefferson is arrested so no-one else will be hurt. Also Kate won't jump off a roof either. It's a tornado, not a mudslide. The deadliest tornado on record only killed about 700 people or so, which is double the second-deadliest, and that was in the 1920s. I'm sure plenty of folks survived. You monster. 
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Feb 4, 2016 05:58
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Robiben posted:And although people disagreed with me, I still think fact that the ending split was really close to 50/50 is a great example of there being no "right" ending. Unfortunately, these aren't the "real numbers", since it records every ending so what it really means is a lot of people went back and saw both. It was originally something like 70-30 Save Bay/Save Bae
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Feb 4, 2016 06:01
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GlyphGryph posted:Unfortunately, these aren't the "real numbers", since it records every ending so what it really means is a lot of people went back and saw both. It was originally something like 70-30 Save Bay/Save Bae Having finished it literally hours after launch, I will confirm that this is absolutely not true of the 360 version.
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Feb 4, 2016 06:08
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Plom Bar posted:You monster. Pompidou would like a word with you. GlyphGryph posted:Unfortunately, these aren't the "real numbers", since it records every ending so what it really means is a lot of people went back and saw both. It was originally something like 70-30 Save Bay/Save Bae Is there actually a way to substantiate this? I mean if most people replayed wouldn't the swing be the same? Edit: I'd honestly love some additional stats about all this. Its pretty drat interesting.
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Feb 4, 2016 06:09
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Robiben posted:Is this better than them being dead? And it's not meant to be a happy ending. Max is a better person sure, and I guess you can assume she will support Joyce and David but poo poo is still hosed. But at least Max will come out of it stronger, not to mention Jefferson is arrested so no-one else will be hurt. Also Kate won't jump off a roof either. My point more is that Max has the least of my sympathies and I'd have preferred to see where the other characters were going, or failing that, to at least see new Super Max in action. Seriously, even changing the ripple-effect photo from "Kate on the roof > Body found problem solved yaaaaaay" to "Kate on roof>Kate consoling grieving Max" and like just a couple dramatic episode-ending sunset pans over David and Joyce and maybe Victoria doing character arc poo poo would've bumped my opinion of the ending up.
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Feb 4, 2016 06:14
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Robiben posted:Is there actually a way to substantiate this? I mean if most people replayed wouldn't the swing be the same? If I'm remembering the last time this discussion came up, for global stats it marks each ending as a separate play through. So everyone who played both adds a tally point to both endings. Plom Bar posted:Having finished it literally hours after launch, I will confirm that this is absolutely not true of the 360 version. Someone posted a screenshot in this thread, but I don't know how long ago that was. Was it 50/50 for you then too?
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Feb 4, 2016 06:15
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GlyphGryph posted:If I'm remembering the last time this discussion came up, for global stats it marks each ending as a separate play through. So everyone who played both adds a tally point to both endings. 49/51 Bae/Bay.
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Feb 4, 2016 06:16
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LoseHound posted:My point more is that Max has the least of my sympathies and I'd have preferred to see where the other characters were going, or failing that, to at least see new Super Max in action. Seriously, even changing the ripple-effect photo from "Kate on the roof > Body found problem solved yaaaaaay" to "Kate on roof>Kate consoling grieving Max" and like just a couple dramatic episode-ending sunset pans over David and Joyce and maybe Victoria doing character arc poo poo would've bumped my opinion of the ending up. Well Max is the player character and in turn is the main focus of the game because we see it from her perspective. I felt pretty drat bad for her when Nathan said "No-one would ever miss your punk-rear end would they?" and Max just has to sit and take it. I think the pictures are fine because I think they give the closure needed (Jefferson Caught, Kate Alive, Max consoling Joyce/David) but that's more of an opinion of mine. I can totally see a case for there being more positive things shown about the characters. GlyphGryph posted:If I'm remembering the last time this discussion came up, for global stats it marks each ending as a separate play through. So everyone who played both adds a tally point to both endings. I'm no statistics expert but if the swing was really uneven at the start and a portion of the people chose a different ending wouldn't that add evenly to both percentages? Roughly speaking of course.
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Feb 4, 2016 06:41
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Robiben posted:Well Max is the player character and in turn is the main focus of the game because we see it from her perspective. I felt pretty drat bad for her when Nathan said "No-one would ever miss your punk-rear end would they?" and Max just has to sit and take it. It's not that I don't feel bad for Max at all, I felt more for Chloe than Max I guess. I am also a big dummy and completely forgot about the picture of Max consoling David and Joyce. I guess the Kate picture stuck with me because people were calling the game cheap emotional manipulation because of Kate and Alternate Chloe and I was all "no no it's so good" and then episode five comes and characters scream at us for their lives before we walk through a gallery of f e e l s to stop the villain and then the suicide is undone. It felt really silly and I was ready for the game to be over.
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Feb 4, 2016 07:11
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LoseHound posted:It's not that I don't feel bad for Max at all, I felt more for Chloe than Max I guess. I am also a big dummy and completely forgot about the picture of Max consoling David and Joyce. I guess the Kate picture stuck with me because people were calling the game cheap emotional manipulation because of Kate and Alternate Chloe and I was all "no no it's so good" and then episode five comes and characters scream at us for their lives before we walk through a gallery of f e e l s to stop the villain and then the suicide is undone. It felt really silly and I was ready for the game to be over. There is some mixed feelings about the ending out there but personally that part really worked for me. The Diner scene was a bit ham-fisted but the Chloe section beforehand grabbed the heart strings and pulled with all its might. I thought it was a great way to give a nice recap before the choice. Also it was trippy which I liked. Is it really cheap manipulation though? I saved Kate but that was a really good moment regardless. It showed Max really cared and that Max's powers have real limits. And alternate Chloe established the lengths that Max would go to for Chloe and also really hammers home the "See what loving with Time does?!". I don't think its cheap if it has a place in the story. And they are both really good emotional moments as well. Hell even the reveal of Max going back to save William was excellent. It came out of nowhere and was a real "whoa" moment when you realised what Max was about to do. Shes just so HAPPY when she thinks shes fixed it all and them BAM wheelchair.
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Feb 4, 2016 07:39
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Robiben posted:I'm no statistics expert but if the swing was really uneven at the start and a portion of the people chose a different ending wouldn't that add evenly to both percentages? Roughly speaking of course. No. What you're missing is that because the groups who chose each ending are uneven in size to begin with, they'll contribute an uneven amount when they go back and play the other ending. Suppose 700 people initially chose ending A and 300 initially chose ending B: a 70-30 split. Now, suppose 50% of each of those groups go back and play the other ending: that would add 350 new players to ending B's count (50% of the 700 people who initially played ending A) and 150 to ending A's count (50% of the 300 people who initially played ending B). Now you've got 850 playthroughs with ending A and 650 with ending B, which is about a 57-43 split. Unless people who initially got one ending are more likely to replay and get the other than people who initially got the other ending are, the effect of people replaying is to bring the percentages closer to 50-50.
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Feb 4, 2016 07:46
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Robiben posted:Well I agree. But Chloe is dead. Max is the one that has to live with it. ALSO its a fantastical story in some way so Chloe is probably chilling in heaven or some poo poo. Isn't the butterfly meant to be her spirit? "Chloe and Rachel are loving together in heaven right now. Is that what you wanna hear?"
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Feb 4, 2016 09:55
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