|
Doesn't Octavia Butler also have tons of rapey BDSM stuff in her books? I'm not judging, that's just what I heard. Sounds like something I'd like to miss...
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 07:45 |
|
|
Well, I would love to see this become full on badthread V.2 Patty deserves it and since a new book is not coming out anytime soon what else is there to do? I mean, is that poo poo BananaNutkins posted really from him? Even if it’s not it could be and that is bad enough. I liked the first book well enough and wanted to like the second, but the fairy sex / ninja poo poo was unforgivable. Looking forward to the third book. Will it be a salvation or train wreck? Not ever going to give the Slow regard a chance.  But to stop the threadshitting, I’ll put in a vote for Joe Abercrombie's “Best Served Cold” and “Red Country” Both have wonderful female leads and super fun to read, good fantasy, and don’t take themselves too seriously. I did not like Red Country that much on the first read but listened to all the audiobooks again last year and fell in love with Red Country (Steven Pacey is the poo poo, best narrator ever, some stupid copyright / trademark / contract BS prevented me from getting Best Served Cold and The Hero's narrated by him only available in the UK. Lame). Love the First Law trilogy as well but no strong females and Joe has become a better writer as time passes. Bonus points for Joe A. he actually writes books! Even with a busy video game / convention schedule... I read one story by Dan Simmons, The Terror, and quite liked it. Is Hyperion any good?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 02:56
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:This is a rather weak and tired excuse for the overall pattern, however. Fantasy is fantasy - medieval Europe did not have any dragons, there were no dwarf civilizations inside of mountains, no elf cities in the forests, no demons, no armies of undead.. yet fantasy readers accept all of these things readily. But for some reason whenever criticisms of gender roles are made wrt fantasy novels this silly nonsense about "history" comes up even though most fantasy novels have nothing to do with actual history or real medieval societies whatsoever. A huge number of fantasy novels rip off either christian monotheism or the older roman pantheon of gods. They don't call them Christians or Romans because that would be dumb. But this is kind of what I am talking about. You're willing to read very deeply into a story to call it misogynistic, but you're going to say medieval Christianity isn't influencing a ton of narratives? That's ridiculous. What I think is actually happening here is that your reason for reading fantasy/scifi and the authors reason for writing it are different. And that's fine. Read some Octavia Butler or N. K. Jemisin when you get tired of white male heroes. But if a chick or dude just wants to tell a story about dragons + medieval times and she/he doesn't alter the social order, that doesn't make her/him a sexist poo poo bag. Finally, this is all only in the defense of the authors i listed. There are certainly a bunch of prejudice fuckers out there.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 03:01
|
|
|
HIJK posted:Doesn't Octavia Butler also have tons of rapey BDSM stuff in her books? There's sexual relationships that are...uncomfortable....in a couple of her books, but for those scenes the discomfort was part of the point and went with the theme/characterization in the novel. None of it came off as meant to titillate, or even really explicit, unless is one of the few books of hers I haven't read. Perhaps you are thinking of Hamilton?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 03:10
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:But if a chick or dude just wants to tell a story about dragons + medieval times and she/he doesn't alter the social order, that doesn't make her/him a sexist poo poo bag. I never said it did. I have not referred to any authors as a "sexist poo poo bag" nor have I "read very deeply into a story to call it misogynistic". I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to there. What I am talking about is an overall pattern in which a majority of fantasy novels have very little to do with actual accurate history (and a fantasy religion that vaguely has the trappings of Christianity isn't really the same thing) and yet the idea of "historical accuracy" is raised time and time again whenever any criticism of gender roles in fantasy novels is made. I just find it ridiculous because the vast majority of fantasy I've encountered has nothing whatsoever to do with historical accuracy. Fantasy worlds are by definition fantastic and involve all manner of things that are not only non-historical, but are physically impossible.. if you can bend reality so far as to have dragons and zombies and floating castles, then it shouldn't be hard to bend reality so far as to have a world in which the social order is different and in which women are more than background or prizes. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 03:15
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:This is a rather weak and tired excuse for the overall pattern, however. Fantasy is fantasy - medieval Europe did not have any dragons, there were no dwarf civilizations inside of mountains, no elf cities in the forests, no demons, no armies of undead.. yet fantasy readers accept all of these things readily. But for some reason whenever criticisms of gender roles are made wrt fantasy novels this silly nonsense about "history" comes up even though most fantasy novels have nothing to do with actual history or real medieval societies whatsoever. Well you see, actually it's about
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 03:31
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:I never said it did. I have not referred to any authors as a "sexist poo poo bag" nor have I "read very deeply into a story to call it misogynistic". I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to there. I mentally combined you and HELLO LADIES into the same forum poster. Sorry! Also, don't expect every story to be about social equality? If you do, you gonna be let down. That's the TLDR of what I'm trying to say.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 03:58
|
|
|
Benson Cunningham posted:I kind of hate Octavia Butler. Liz Williams is fine. Shariann Lewitt I've never read. Candace Jane Dorsey I didn't find exceptional. I've actually never heard of Tanith Lee, is she known state side? Jane Yolen I haven't read. Did you actually read what I posted, or just responded to the fact that it was critical of you? I mean, I kind of hate Octavia Butler too, but she's as good on the literary merits as many of the dudes on your list. Likewise, I'm not quibbling with your inclusion of Martin, even though as discussed ad nausea, ASOIAF depicts a ton of brutal misogyny. I'm going to go ahead and say that everyone in this thread already understands the basic importance and implications of the use/mention distiction, and this might blow your mind, but it's actually possible for a book that is purported to be in the "mention" category (ie: Rothfuss, Lynch, etc) is actually in the "use" category. I'm objecting to your list because it's basically et up with those authors, even if some of them are legit mention-not-use, like Martin, and because a lot of them aren't really that good in literary terms. The omission of Joan Vinge is pretty glaring, in context. I find the most grating thing about Rothfusss that he thinks he's a feminist when his books are extremely misogynist, he almost agressively presents himself and Kvothe in the narrative as feminist, and he refuses to introspect when actually called on it. I think Lynch is basically cut from the exact same cloth, he just has less sex ninjas and sex fairies. The conflict between the world he's constructed and what he keeps doing to his female characters, like the "I'm just being grittily realistic!" grimdark stuff like the female genital mutilation and rape of redheaded little girls as a cure for disease is in stark contrast with Martin, who makes a point of showing how much the misogyny of the world is systemic. Earwicker posted:Fantasy worlds are by definition fantastic and involve all manner of things that are not only non-historical, but are physically impossible.. if you can bend reality so far as to have dragons and zombies and floating castles, then it shouldn't be hard to bend reality so far as to have a world in which the social order is different and in which women are more than background or prizes. This. In Lynch's case if you've already bent reality in your pseudo-Renaissance setting so that women have full legal equality as business owners, inheritors of property and titles, and hold high governmental offices and are allowed to be law enforcement in a context where it's all hand-to-hand combat with not a gun in sight, it is really tellingly weird to also have blatant sex discimination and horrifc misogynist violence that wouldn't be out of place in a work that was intentionally crafted to show the horrors of the age (Martin) or is fairly obviously the product of the author being deeply misogynist and hosed up about women on a personal level (Bakker). Maybe it's a failure as a writer (Martin and Abercrombie have their moments here, and to Abercrombie's credit he's acknowledged it and explicitly worked on getting better), maybe it's a failure as a person (and to be fair, I think some of Martin's grimdarkness re: women does fall into this category as well), but it's definitely a failure on a literary level if nothing else.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 04:03
|
|
|
HELLO LADIES posted:Did you actually read what I posted, or just responded to the fact that it was critical of you? When you start your response with ad hominems it makes it difficult to pursue any kind of discussion, so I'll just stop. Sorry you don't like all the same books I like.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 04:35
|
|
|
A lot of the problem too is just that there aren't enough female writers in fantasy, and when they try to break a mold they either get obscure or even beaten down by the largely male audience. There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing good books with a male-centric viewpoint (said the male fantasy writer hopeful), -though having a good grasp of writing female characters is a very big part of being good- but the more diverse voices are in the genre the more good fantasy books there are going to be, and that's not going to happen so long as the audience is mostly a boys club looking for good D&D stories. Of course that sort of becomes a chicken and egg problem of how do you introduce female fans wanting a good female voice to a traditionally masculine pursuit (not to discourage it, I think good Science Fiction and Fantasy is a very important thing to have) other than the very limited accepted canon like Ursula Le Guin or those tainted with the brush of (gasp!) feminism like Atwood (who to be fair like all exploratory artists has a very wide range of quality and style to her works where no two people will like the same books). To Rothfuss' credit he seems to be super good about promoting his female compatriots; while his views of women can be sort of icky I cannot blame his feminism when it comes to allowing female voices a chance to shine.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 05:34
|
|
|
Speaking of female authors, it's been years since I've read the Coldfire Trilogy (teenager) or the Magister Trilogy (early to mid 20s) but I just wanted to say that CS Friedman is one of the best authors I've ever read and if you haven't read Coldfire you should go do it immediately. Now I'm curious to go back and read both of those trilogies to see how they hold up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 07:08
|
|
|
spandexcajun posted:I read one story by Dan Simmons, The Terror, and quite liked it. Is Hyperion any good? I'd throw Steven Erikson in there but he's pretty drat polarizing. Hard to accuse him of misogyny, though; while he did write some of the most horrific rape scenes I've seen in fantasy, it's pretty clear they were meant to be revolting - and terrible poo poo happens to pretty much all of his characters, regardless of gender. As for woman authors, may I throw in some Catherynne M. Valente? I also only read one book by Nnedi Okorafor but I really liked Who Fears Death. That one actually includes Rothfuss the book's acknowledgements, although I cannot fathom why since it's miles above his stuff. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 08:12
|
|
|
spandexcajun posted:Well, I would love to see this become full on badthread V.2 Patty deserves it and since a new book is not coming out anytime soon what else is there to do? I mean, is that poo poo BananaNutkins posted really from him? Even if it’s not it could be and that is bad enough. If you mean the thing I posted where he reviews an Arthur C Clarke book, yes. His goodreads account is solid goooooold. If you mean the ceramic dildo worshipping pseudo Muslims, that particular shame belongs to Peter V Brett, who makes Rothfuss look like some kind of altruistic feminist Hemingway. Side note, I have met Rothfuss irl at two conventions and he was more goony than can be imagined. He had one or two assistants that saw to his every whim and followed him around with satchels full of what I'm assuming were his favorite snacks [could've been diapers], and he kept doing that cheesy morning radio host thing where he kept trying to get people to bring him Oklahoma Joes barbecue in exchange for a little face time. MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 09:00
|
|
|
Out of curiosity,, he was reviewing Rama II wasn't he?
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 14:23
|
|
|
Yeah, it was Rama II. And I actually agree with his review of it, but I found him saying those things highly ironical.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 18:24
|
|
|
I read Rama when I was like 11 or 12 or so and my dad told me not to bother reading any of the rest of them, but I borrowed them and struggled through it. It may have been the first time in my life that I had to force myself to read through a book that I actively didn't enjoy. I figured that since it was Clarke it was good and that was a hard learned lesson. The only book after that that I forced myself to read was The Scarlet Letter and that was only because it was for school and I couldn't even finish it. It was kind of an eye opening thing for me to realize that just because I liked an author didn't mean everything they wrote was going to be enjoyable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 19:29
|
|
|
HIJK posted:Holy poo poo what the gently caress is wrong with fantasy authors
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 20:39
|
|
|
Pretty sure it all boils down to "nerd has power fantasy and thinks about sex a lot."
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 20:47
|
|
|
Earwicker posted:I never said it did. I have not referred to any authors as a "sexist poo poo bag" nor have I "read very deeply into a story to call it misogynistic". I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to there. Most, if not all, fantasy is written as a power fantasy for readers who are looking for a power fantasy. A world, created by a male author for a male audience, in which a male power fantasy can play out, will, naturally, feature women who are largely subordinate to men and these women will, naturally, be sexualized and will probably want to have sex with the protagonist. This, of course, is true by varying degrees but I would argue that it's largely true. Gender roles in these stories are what they are because it's part of the power fantasy. No author, of course, will come out and tell you "Yeah, sure, women in my books are sexy and ready for sex at the drop of a hat because that's my fantasy," but to assume it isn't true for many is kind of silly. People tend to seek out fantasy because the real world just isn't offering them the kind of experiences they would like to have. I would argue those who engage in fantasy fiction intensely and regularly are not likely to be as good looking as they'd like, as charming as they'd like, as smart as they'd like, as strong as they'd like, or having as much sex as they'd like. I mean, walk into your average comic shop or gaming den or convntion and then come back and tell me what you see; it won't, for the most part, of super fit, handsome, random-sex -havers. There are, of course, many exceptions but I think you'll find my claim is largely true Now, I'm not defending having two-dimensional female characters. Then again, I don't read Rothfuss or other similar garbage. My real life is pretty good and I don't really need the power fantasy. However, I'm not everyone. So, I'm just saying that the reason you're not finding what you're looking for, in terms of modern gender roles, in a lot of fantasy works, is because those works are not for you. Should there be lots and lots of fantasy works that are for you? Absolutely. These just aren't, and that's OK. TL;DR: Solice Kirsk posted:Pretty sure it all boils down to "nerd has power fantasy and thinks about sex a lot."
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 21:31
|
|
|
Noam Chomsky posted:Most, if not all, fantasy is written as a power fantasy for readers who are looking for a power fantasy. A world, created by a male author for a male audience, in which a male power fantasy can play out, will, naturally, feature women who are largely subordinate to men and these women will, naturally, be sexualized and will probably want to have sex with the protagonist. This, of course, is true by varying degrees but I would argue that it's largely true. Gender roles in these stories are what they are because it's part of the power fantasy. No author, of course, will come out and tell you "Yeah, sure, women in my books are sexy and ready for sex at the drop of a hat because that's my fantasy," but to assume it isn't true for many is kind of silly. What a lazy response to criticism. Don't like it? It's not for you!
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 21:36
|
|
|
Unfortunately, when you end up replacing men with women in those lead roles in these power fantasy settings, people call her a Mary Sue. Just look at the recent Star Wars film. A hyper-competent lady protagonist going through a journey and on an adventure, making friends and getting her own starship is apparently the worst thing in the history of the world of films, especially for Star Wars which belongs only to men, for some people. Bring on them novels where women are the super-awesome lead with a harem of waifu men pining for her attention. Unfortunately, if it were written by a woman they'd have to never use the internet because the abuse they'd receive would be overwhelming.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 21:44
|
|
|
Ar least Brandon Sanderson doesn't have these super sexualized women, because his characters simply don't have sex.  (paging BravestOfTheLamps)
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 21:51
|
|
|
CerealCrunch posted:What a lazy response to criticism. Don't like it? It's not for you! I wasn't trying to really respond to criticism. I am saying that the answer to the question as to why women are portrayed as they are in a lot of fantasy is pretty simple and obvious. I am saying that women are portrayed in a certain way by certain authors because it's part of the power fantasy. It's intentional, whether they admit to it or not, and I would argue that most of those who read works by those authors enjoy how I don't go online and criticize Twilight or romance novels or a Tom Clancy books, because they aren't for me and that's probably why I don't like them. Good criticism is actually impossible for anyone who isn't the intended audience of a piece of media. If you absolutely hate first-person-shooters then your critique of any of them is worthless. Like, I could say "Man, I sure do hate this Twilight book! I'd really like it better if it was an entirely different book!" Approach it from a writer or artists perspective: you create a piece of media and someone for whom you were not creating it trashes it or just doesn't like large portions of what you created - of what use is their criticism to you? What's the actionable advice? That they can't write what they like for who they like lest some people on the internet get mad at them? Frankly, I don't see what your issue is. I don't think male these power fantasy novels are good but they are popular and they do sell well and they have an intended audience.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 21:57
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:Unfortunately, when you end up replacing men with women in those lead roles in these power fantasy settings, people call her a Mary Sue. Just look at the recent Star Wars film. A hyper-competent lady protagonist going through a journey and on an adventure, making friends and getting her own starship is apparently the worst thing in the history of the world of films, especially for Star Wars which belongs only to men, for some people. You are overstating the importance of teenage boys and loud, sexist, neckbeards with no jobs or lives. There are already many books that portray a female power fantasy. Go check out the fantasy shelves at Barnes and Nobel. Lots and lots of urban fantasy and even some Sci-Fi, written by women, with female leads who kick rear end and end up with lots of men pining for their attention. I mean, judging by my local B&N, female authors and female leads have urban fantasy and steampunk fantasy on lock. I don't read it or criticize it because it's not for me. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 21:59
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:Unfortunately, when you end up replacing men with women in those lead roles in these power fantasy settings, people call her a Mary Sue. Just look at the recent Star Wars film. A hyper-competent lady protagonist going through a journey and on an adventure, making friends and getting her own starship is apparently the worst thing in the history of the world of films, especially for Star Wars which belongs only to men, for some people. It all boils down to what kind of self indulgent power fantasy you want to consume. Rey is a Mary Sue; so is James Bond. They're both fairly cool (if boring) and they both make shitloads of money. Just because something is criticized doesn't mean it won't be hugely popular or that it doesn't deserve to be hugely popular. What I'm saying, as a woman, is that power fantasies are okay and we shouldn't try to make them not exist, it's just that we should encourage all forms of intelligently made stuff. Rothfuss's power fantasies are hilarious but he still has a right to publish them so long as we have the right to criticize them. This applies to all creators and all things. Being an artist is the most difficult thing if you don't thrive on conflict or can't accept constructive criticism. Female authors and characters get more of this backlash but it's still needed IMO because otherwise how do we improve as artists? IDK, this isn't targeted at your post specifically.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:02
|
|
|
Noam Chomsky posted:You are overstating the importance of teenage boys and loud, sexist, neckbeards with no jobs or lives. This is true. Anita Blake novels, badly written as they are, are literally about a werevampire heroine who has a harem of male sex slaves at her beck and call. These novels sell like gangbusters to a female audience. I bet there are hundreds like them out there.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:04
|
|
|
HIJK posted:It all boils down to what kind of self indulgent power fantasy you want to consume. Rey is a Mary Sue; so is James Bond. They're both fairly cool (if boring) and they both make shitloads of money. Just because something is criticized doesn't mean it won't be hugely popular or that it doesn't deserve to be hugely popular. I get what you're trying to say but Rey isn't really a mary sue. She is competent but not moreso than any of the other new leads and nothing she does is implausible. The mary sue meme was just started by loud neckbeards and teenage boys angry that the new Jedi protagonist wasn't a boy who grew up on a moisture farm. Bond isn't really a mary sue either, just hypercompetent like most progatonists.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:06
|
|
|
Noam Chomsky posted:I get what you're trying to say but Rey isn't really a mary sue. She is competent but not moreso than any of the other new leads and nothing she does is implausible. The mary sue meme was just started by loud neckbeards and teenage boys angry that the new Jedi protagonist wasn't a boy who grew up on a moisture farm. Bond isn't really a mary sue either, just hypercompetent like most progatonists. Mary Sue is a very slippery slidey term but I don't really want to discuss it here, this thread has enough problems as it is. Hit me up on PM if you're open to talking about it more, I'd welcome the discussion.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:08
|
|
|
HIJK posted:This is true. Anita Blake novels, badly written as they are, are literally about a werevampire heroine who has a harem of male sex slaves at her beck and call. These novels sell like gangbusters to a female audience. I bet there are hundreds like them out there. There are quite a few similar novels of varying degrees in quality. One of the key things people enjoy in SF is the escapism a power fantasy provides. I'm not saying that you can't criticism them; I am saying that if the things you are criticizing are things that are purposefully included in the story to fuel the power fantasy for the intended audience then I don't think that really says anything that can't be summarized by just saying "well, I don't like it." But, I just try to enjoy what appeals to me and leave the rest for others to enjoy. I get no enjoyment or intellectual stimulation out of tearing down something that others are having fun with even though its quality is suspect as far as I am concerned.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:09
|
|
|
Noam Chomsky posted:There are quite a few similar novels of varying degrees in quality. You just rendered the existence of English as an area of study completely lmao. People make their careers out of explaining why they don't like things, which is also hilarious now that I'm thinking about it. I should probably raid those female dominated areas of nerd lit for book recommendations. My to-read pile just got a shitload bigger.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:21
|
|
|
Sleauregard Silenthing has no target audience at all, and therefore is immune to all criticism.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:21
|
|
Noam Chomsky posted:I get what you're trying to say but Rey isn't really a mary sue. She is competent but not moreso than any of the other new leads and nothing she does is implausible.  You think lots of first time pilots fly through dead star destroyers and shake experienced pilots? Or first time light saber fights to a draw with someone with training and experience? Or people who barely know the force exists mind trick people?
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:25
|
|
|
The Slithery D posted:
NO, SHUT UP, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS HERE.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:29
|
|
|
Newsflash: Female Power fantasy is written by dicks who get a temporary pass because society says they do. Power fantasy is written by dicks who are basement dwellers and don't get a pass because society says they don't. They're both vapid trash as far as literary merit is concerned. The Mary Sue argument keeps springing up because there's really no question of whether or not Kvothe or Rey are Mary Sues. They are. Sherlock Holmes was a Mary Sue. It's all good, and if you want to read or write about those shallow characters, go for it. [Heavy breathing] But don't defend a fact that's obviously false because you feel a moral compulsion stand up for women's rights. There are honest ways to do that that don't require white knighting crap characters and authors. [Heavy breathing] Like real world stuff. Maybe stop battering your wife for a day or two or help an old lady across the street without running off with her handbag. Or pretending you're a lesbian because it's in vogue right now. [Heavy breathing] If your really want to make a difference in today modern world you need to go full tranny and hit someone with your car and get away with it. Defending female Mary Sue characters is spitting into the wind of social change. Come back when you can take a stance that means something--We won't have real change until there are andro pedophile dog rapists running this country. Androgynous pirate isn't interested in your puppies booty 2016 Come fly the flag with me in Washington. [Posted from White House lawn]
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:48
|
|
|
CerealCrunch posted:Don't like it? It's not for you! -Patrick Rothfuss, defending Slow Regard against its (numerous) critics. HIJK posted:This is true. Anita Blake novels, badly written as they are, are literally about a werevampire heroine who has a harem of male sex slaves at her beck and call. These novels sell like gangbusters to a female audience. I bet there are hundreds like them out there. Skimming through the various fantasy lists on iBooks or Kindle is always pages upon pages of sex fantasy poo poo. I'm sure it was bad before 50 Shades of Grey but that Twilight-fanfic-turned-blockbuster definitely made it worse.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:51
|
|
|
The Slithery D posted:
She wasn't a "first time pilot". She explicitly says she's flown before, but just hasn't ever left the planet. Her opponent in the lightsaber fight was 1) wounded and 2) not trying to kill her. As for the mind trick, that's the closest thing you've got to a valid point here, but she's presented as a powerful prodigy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:53
|
|
|
Oh gosh. I wasn't even talking about if it held water or not, I was just pointing out that the term has become a derogatory term. They say that instead of saying "I hated that the fact the character was a woman". They don't care about the details, they care about the gender. At least most of the people. Edit: Remember when Rothfuss took a character who was headstrong and didn't think things through and was vindictive and showed off and was proud then had the universe bend over backwards to prove that person right and show how completely awesome he was? Boy, did things change a lot between books. Jimbot fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Feb 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:59
|
|
Just  if you weren't dumbfounded by the entire Millennium Falcon sequence. (Why were the loving keys left in it?)
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 22:59
|
|
|
Mary Sue could be her own thread, but generally my understanding is that if they have a character flaw of any kind, they're not a Mary Sue. Honor Harrington is a Mary Sue because she's perfect at everything, including morality, and anyone who disagrees with her about anything is actually evil. Sherlock Holmes, for example, has plenty of character flaws. Wild mood swings, cocaine use, sometimes he fucks up cases and people die as a result, etc. "Mary Sue" isn't just a synonym for "talented and skilled protagonist."
|
|
#
?
Feb 3, 2016 23:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 07:45 |
|
|
Well, I believe in the original Doyle, the cocaine use was seen more as Sherlock being a forward thinking man of science rather than a flaw. I just read Hound of The Baskervilles and Holmes most definitely had no flaws in that book.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2016 00:46
|
|