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Skill upgrades are pretty essential in terms of hitting things, you're really expected to be on top of that to hit anything reliably. It's not hugely worse than other tiers but if you're behind then yeah you can pretty much expect to miss all the time and likewise if your weapons aren't upgraded to the top tier then expect everything in Champion dungeons to outspeed you. What's the solution here? I guess don't do Champion dungeons until you can upgrade, or do them but understand you won't be very effective in them.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:04
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Soothing Vapors posted:at this point it feels like a honeypot for bad players to reveal themselves And for not so bad/lucky players to be insufferable about it
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Feb 4, 2016 02:07
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You delay doing champion dungeons as long as possible. If you're not playing on NG+/don't want to grind lower levels, you'll have to send some poor saps in eventually. Having a good skill and trinket setup can overcome the equipment deficit but I won't pretend its not difficult and that the RNG can't be extremely spiteful. The only champion dungeon I straight up would not do without level 5 weapons is the cove. I tried doing it once and everything was faster than my team leading to a ton of extra damage. EDIT: Tuned into a stream just in time to see a guy party wipe to the level 5 hag 
Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 02:08
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lmao this thread attacks anyone perceived as "not good" harder than the Dark Souls threads, which I thought had to be the apex of gitgood sentiment.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:14
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You want the Vestal to be slow as poo poo so she can reactively heal, right? Is it ever worth upgrading her weapon?
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Feb 4, 2016 02:15
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Beasteh posted:You want the Vestal to be slow as poo poo so she can reactively heal, right? Is it ever worth upgrading her weapon? The only exception I could think of is a team deliberately built to go after the enemies and I still don't think such a team is very good.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:17
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Chomp8645 posted:lmao this thread attacks anyone perceived as "not good" harder than the Dark Souls threads, which I thought had to be the apex of gitgood sentiment. its the people who blame luck or anything other than their own bad decisions when they lose that we're getting some amusement from. hope this helps.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:19
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Ciaphas posted:And for not so bad/lucky players to be insufferable about it  Beasteh posted:You want the Vestal to be slow as poo poo so she can reactively heal, right? Is it ever worth upgrading her weapon? If she's fast it's easier to stun with her and a R1 stun/R2 early heal is as good or better than a late R1 heal Chomp8645 posted:lmao this thread attacks anyone perceived as "not good" harder than the Dark Souls threads, which I thought had to be the apex of gitgood sentiment. dudes who just need help are A-OK
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Feb 4, 2016 02:20
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Beasteh posted:You want the Vestal to be slow as poo poo so she can reactively heal, right? Is it ever worth upgrading her weapon? I think going fast is always good because really attacking/stunning first round and the healing second round before the enemies is functionally the same for health bars as healing being the last thing in the round, but you get that added attack/stun. Also I would upgrade her weapon because I think judgement is a great skill. If the vestal herself is wounded you still get a heal (albeit a lesser one) but bundled with an attack! What's not to love?
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Feb 4, 2016 02:21
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Internet Kraken posted:You're missing the final weapon and armour upgrades. Those are big improvements that make champion dungeons go from "insanely hard" too "mostly hard". Also yes, resistances are now high enough that if you want to reliably stun stuff you need to equip the proper trinkets for most characters. Some of high enough bases (houndsmaster's blackjack) that they always work, but most others do not. So if they are essential to your success, equip the proper trinkets for them to work. Maintaining an A-team is kind of hard right now because everyone is coming out of the dungeon with high stress levels, since the fights are dragging on longer due to all the whiffed hits. I guess I'll try some medium missions and see if the camp buffs are enough to get me through. Nakar posted:Skill upgrades are pretty essential in terms of hitting things, you're really expected to be on top of that to hit anything reliably. It's not hugely worse than other tiers but if you're behind then yeah you can pretty much expect to miss all the time and likewise if your weapons aren't upgraded to the top tier then expect everything in Champion dungeons to outspeed you. It's not like I'm using rank 1 stun skills and wondering why nothing is hitting, most of my money goes to skill upgrades and they're maxed out where I can afford it. My issue is that I'm now reluctant to use even max-rank status-effect skills, so a lot of strategies I relied on before seem unviable now. As for not doing Champion dungeons, I'm out of options. All but 4 of my roster are level 5, and even those 4 are going to hit level 5 in a mission or too. Chomp8645 posted:lmao this thread attacks anyone perceived as "not good" harder than the Dark Souls threads, which I thought had to be the apex of gitgood sentiment. I have no problem being called a lovely player if I'm playing like poo poo, but the replies with actual advice are a lot more helpful than ones with "people having trouble with endgame conten...smdh" Cicadalek fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 02:21
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Cicadalek posted:Maintaining an A-team is kind of hard right now because everyone is coming out of the dungeon with high stress levels, since the fights are dragging on longer due to all the whiffed hits. I guess I'll try some medium missions and see if the camp buffs are enough to get me through. This one has become vestigial.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:23
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Hot of the presses: according to one of the devs in twitch chat, they're going to roll back the most recent 15% XP threshold changes.quote:RedHookStudios: we are planning on rolling back the XP threshold changes e: To the guy having trouble with Champion dungeons, your experience matches mine in many ways. I embarked on champion dungeons, with some losses and some defeats, pretty much as soon as I had idle level 5's in my hamlet. I managed to upgrade my guild and smith eventually, which made a huge difference. I think Champion dungeons are just a lot less forgiving in terms of how well-optimized and set up your teams are. I remember having success in Veteran dungeons with +heal trinkets on my vestal, but in champ dungeons she couldn't keep up anyway, so +stun trinkets became the norm. You hopefully have a variety of heroes available, so try to come up with dungeon-specific parties, taking some of the stronger quirks in mind, like Beast Slayer or +scouting quirks. The thing I'm not sure how to deal with exactly is what to do after a defeat when you don't have roster space for an apprentice or veteran run. I guess it's probably better to try runs with underequipped level 5 heroes rather than dismissing them outright. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 02:25
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FreeKillB posted:Hot of the presses: according to one of the devs in twitch chat, they're going to roll back the most recent 15% XP threshold changes.  why
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Feb 4, 2016 02:26
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A Cultist Witch (champion female cultist) has 35% Dodge (which is high) and 70% Stun Resist. Maxed out I believe a Plague Doctor's stun skills have base hit of 115 and 140% or something base Stun chance. Hit rates can't go higher than 90% so she just needs +10 ACC from a trinket to guarantee the best possible hitrate (and this is against an enemy with high Dodge for the tier), and her Stun rate is about 70% by default. Add a Blasphemous Vial for +40% Stun and +15 Ranged ACC and you've solved both problems. I believe the +15 from the trinket even erases the excessive Dodge of Champion-tier Madmen. So yes, stuns can be pretty reliable at Champion dungeons, and should be anywhere from reasonably likely to land (~70%+ baseline) to more or less entirely reliable. If you have lv5 skills. If you don't, well, it's gonna be some trouble.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:27
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FreeKillB posted:Hot of the presses: according to one of the devs in twitch chat, they're going to roll back the most recent 15% XP threshold changes. That's good, I'm glad they realized it was a dumb change. Jesus christ if DICE could just get some intern to edit an excel sheet at half the speed Red Hook does then Battlefront would have been playable weeks ago.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:27
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Characters too quickly outstripping the midgame.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:30
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Soothing Vapors posted:nah it's the people who come in here crying about how the game is UNFAIR and RANDOM and things JUST HAPPEN and there is NO WAY TO STOP THEM and MY JESTER just CHANGED ALL HIS SKILLS ON ME that are fun to henget But it's not all that hard to mitigate, so yeah, if the randomness is so much of a problem for someone that it makes the game not enjoyable anymore they should just put it down. I will say, though, that I have no idea how hard the jump to Champion level runs is now. It wasn't super easy even during Early Access, and back then everything was so cheap you were pretty much swimming in money all the time so keeping skills and gear upgraded on everyone wasn't an issue.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:32
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I did the jump a year ago back in early access (very near release), and it was quite underwhelming. Perhaps my economy was better set up to have higher-end upgrades, but back then the veteran->champion jump was less of a shock. When I started afresh after a yearlong hiatus, the apprentice->veteran shock was mild (I think this jump is malleable based on player skill compared to raw upgrades) and the veteran->champion jump was way worse. I went from steamrolling the game to being owned by the Collector and generally having my parties bleed through their HP and stress even on short champion dungeons. I'm not sure how bad it became after the 15% XP change, since I was in a better state by then, but I imagine that phase would have been somewhat more brutal, and certainly the patch's implementation turned many level 4 guys straight to level 5, ruining many players' plans in a way that is easy to sympathize with. e:VVVVVVVVVV I think the high costs for the final upgrades aren't too big a deal in any case except for the blacksmith and to a lesser extent the guild, since those level 5 upgrades are critically important. I'm okay with not grinding crests to save that extra 10% on camp abilities, and I like the fact that I still have any use whatsoever for heirlooms even with 16 level 6 heroes. Not that I don't dump it in favor of gold, though. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 02:36
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Stuff is really, really expensive now, and getting bumped through the Veteran content is not hard for guys. Obviously the smart thing to do is to take a deep breath and say "I know I am unprepared for Champion dungeons and am not going to do them," but then you're sitting there staring at some partially-invested lv5 guys and asking what the hell you ought to be doing then because those guys leveled up to 5 pretty quick and now they can't do anything without it being suicidal. I suppose keeping 4-6 slots free to just continuously float crappy guys and fire them for money runs is possible but again that requires the forethought to have enough of your roster dedicated to it and it's not the most intuitive thing. The real issue is that costs are absurd, and it's not even just the Deed thing. Go look at how many Crests it takes to upgrade the Survivalist, there's no loving justification for that for the minor benefit you get. It also takes a ton of money to get guys Champion-ready in general, and until you have heroes with Champion-ready skills and equipment you're not turning enough of a profit to equip more heroes to that level (in Champion dungeons; you can of course turn a profit in Apprentice/Veteran if you have guys still doing those, but again "fire the guys you just leveled up and replace them with lv0 guys until the Hamlet's maxed out" does not make intuitive sense to most people).
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Feb 4, 2016 02:38
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Bad Seafood posted:Characters too quickly outstripping the midgame.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:43
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Here's one tip I think is important that a lot of players overlook; maximize your profits. Which is to say, don't leave a dungeon the second you complete the quest. A lot of people do this and miss out on extra loot they could be getting. If your party is still in relatively good shape, keep exploring. You're done with the quest so you can bail any time you want anyways. Drop your light level intentionally to get better drops. Only leave once your pockets are full or your team is about to get themselves killed. This isn't necessary on NG but it makes things easier when you get more out of every run. On NG+ its required due to the time limit. Nakar posted:The real issue is that costs are absurd, and it's not even just the Deed thing. Go look at how many Crests it takes to upgrade the Survivalist, there's no loving justification for that for the minor benefit you get. It also takes a ton of money to get guys Champion-ready in general, and until you have heroes with Champion-ready skills and equipment you're not turning enough of a profit to equip more heroes to that level (in Champion dungeons; you can of course turn a profit in Apprentice/Veteran if you have guys still doing those, but again "fire the guys you just leveled up and replace them with lv0 guys until the Hamlet's maxed out" does not make intuitive sense to most people). Well you can clear a champion dungeon with level 4 gear if you play well, and even if they all end up as stressed trainwrecks you'll still get more money than it costs to treat them. I do agree that prices towards the end of the game are wonky. I don't think the final upgrade for equipment should be so expensive and the crest cost for the survivalist is dumb, though its something you can ignore completely. VVV Scouting is important to making you more money/making life easier in general. No ambushes means its much safer to let the light drop for more cash. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 02:45
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The biggest source of money for me was running almost exclusively med/long missions with high scouting and getting 3 of the collector's bling gems almost every single run
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Feb 4, 2016 02:48
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Internet Kraken posted:Well you can clear a champion dungeon with level 4 gear if you play well, and even if they all end up as stressed trainwrecks you'll still get more money than it costs to treat them. I do agree that prices towards the end of the game are wonky. I don't think the final upgrade for equipment should be so expensive and the crest cost for the survivalist is dumb, though its something you can ignore completely. At some theoretical point the player's Hamlet will be fully upgraded and they can start exclusively gathering cash in missions, which will greatly ease the pain of top tier upgrade costs and things like treatment and Quirk reinforcement. The problem, I think, is that you will not reach this point in the economy in any reasonable length of time unless you play in a gamey way. So you end up getting ahead of yourself because Resolve XP is not bottlenecked and subject to a double bind like Gold/Heirlooms.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:51
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It seems like it would have been better to use lower level runs to fund high-level upgrades, but that's not something that's immediately apparent to someone playing for the first time. I tended to get guys to level 5 and then ignore them as I did more veteran level stuff, thinking that it would be better to have a wide variety of characters available for champion stuff when I did get around to it. Plus I ran shitloads of missions just trying to gather deeds for blacksmith upgrades to even unlock max-level weapons, never mind afford them. With a fully upgraded guild hall and partially upgrade blacksmith, a character that reaches level 5 has around 16000 gold worth of upgrades to buy. But now to get those upgrades i have to send them on missions that they are unprepared for, since they don't have upgrades...I mean worst case scenario I'll lose a bunch of people and have room for more recruits that can actually turn a profit, but it's still an annoying situation where it feels like i was punished for doing too well.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:55
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FreeKillB posted:Hot of the presses: according to one of the devs in twitch chat, they're going to roll back the most recent 15% XP threshold changes. I'm kinda glad I haven't had the time to play since the exp boosting patch. Excited to see what they come up with.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:58
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What does 15%xp threshold mean?
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Feb 4, 2016 03:00
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A recent patch reduced the thresholds for how much resolve xp was needed to progress to levels 4,5,6 by about 15%. So for instance resolve level 6, which had previously taken 54 XP to obtain, was reduced to 46.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:02
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I almost wonder what would happen if the gold/heirloom paradigm were switched, and heirlooms were expended for character upgrades and gold was used to both purchase services and upgrade the town. Gold still pulls a double duty, but now heirlooms are way less important and are a thing you grab when you've got a new team and not a thing you're constantly scrounging for. This also means heirlooms don't become worthless at any point. What I mean is e.g. you use say Busts and Crests to upgrade weapons/armor, but Gold to upgrade the blacksmith, so you only need as many Busts/Crests as are required to level up the characters you have that need the upgrades. Don't need to upgrade? Run any dungeon you like and focus mostly on gold for further upgrades or for use in the Tavern/Sanitarium/Abbey to purchase stress relief and whatnot. The game can already do this, BTW, if you edit the various files you can change how much and what stuff things cost. It'd make the Furnace upgrade worthless unless it can be applied to heirloom requirements though. Just a thought experiment. I might mess around with it and see what happens if I change the currency type from gold to an heirloom. EDIT: Oh wow it works just fine, it even works with Furnace upgrades with no display errors or anything.  I set the lv1 Abomination weapon upgrade cost to 10 Busts and the maxed Furnace lowered the cost in Busts by 50% just like it would for gold. I could implement this entire thing just changing a handful of lines. Nakar fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 03:06
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Kly posted:i love this thread I know how to play this game semi-competently, I'm just venting because my intended strategy got hosed because for some reason my Jester had multiple level 1 abilities equipped instead of what I intended. But I could have run from the fight right away and been fine, like someone else told me  hindsight is 20/20
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Feb 4, 2016 03:23
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Soothing Vapors posted:MY JESTER just CHANGED ALL HIS SKILLS ON ME that are fun to henget I have no idea why but I swear sometimes my heroes end up with different skills equipped even if I never touched their skill windows, usually after I boot up the game. I can't be the only one experiencing this because it has happened multiple times. That is to say, if my jester had given my dudes +12 accuracy maybe the fatal iron swan would have killed the cultist so I could quickly move on to the enemy frontline instead of getting 3 whiffs in a row.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:29
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I've never had that happen. What I have had happen is me messing with a heroes skills, forgetting about the changes, and only remembering 10 missions later when I use them again and wait why doesn't my occultist have his healing setup oh gently caress 
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Feb 4, 2016 03:30
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Internet Kraken posted:I've never had that happen. What I have had happen is me messing with a heroes skills, forgetting about the changes, and only remembering 10 missions later when I use them again and wait why doesn't my occultist have his healing setup oh gently caress yeah but why would I ever intentionally have level 1 cut off equipped on a level 4 jester is why I'm wondering if something is weird with my skill switching.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:32
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DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:omg It could have also been an Armadillo
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Feb 4, 2016 03:32
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Nakar posted:I almost wonder what would happen if the gold/heirloom paradigm were switched, and heirlooms were expended for character upgrades and gold was used to both purchase services and upgrade the town. Gold still pulls a double duty, but now heirlooms are way less important and are a thing you grab when you've got a new team and not a thing you're constantly scrounging for. This also means heirlooms don't become worthless at any point. This would be a pretty cool mod. I'm interested.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:34
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Man that would make relics even more precious.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:46
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yeah that doesnt really fix anything because you'd still have the same bottlenecks except this time you have to keep on going to specific locations to level up each of your dudes as opposed to the current weald economy
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Feb 4, 2016 03:47
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Fighting a mammoth cyst, it crits my Occultist and puts him on Deaths Door. On his turn, he uses Wyrd Reconstruction and crit heals for fifty loving hit points 
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Feb 4, 2016 03:52
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Afraid of Audio posted:yeah that doesnt really fix anything because you'd still have the same bottlenecks except this time you have to keep on going to specific locations to level up each of your dudes as opposed to the current weald economy His post does imply you can set different relics for each character's armor or weapon, so the grind would be balanced out a lot more between the various dungeons. Leper's weapon costs busts, leper's armor costs portraits, grave robber's weapon costs deeds, etc.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:53
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I think you actually could do something like that, though I hadn't considered it (just in favor of uniformity, really). I don't think it would be so bad if the costs were reasonable. Obviously if you need like 50 deeds for a lv5 skill then you're no better off than you were, but if doing a Long Weald mission gives you 12 Deeds just for finishing and that's enough to level a skill or two for multiple characters then it's probably not unreasonable. Make things cost 2 types of heirlooms each but make the actual cost per heirloom pretty low such that walking out of a mission with some stacks of heirlooms lets you top off a party in 1-2 runs at worst, with the rest dedicated to gold for upgrades and recovery. Remember that heirlooms of all types still drop in all dungeons, just not as frequently. If you need some deeds to level up your guys but also some of everything else it means doing each dungeon once or something should provide, in aggregate, all the heirlooms your guys need. If you want a big reserve for new characters you can keep hauling in heirlooms but doing it this way lets you stop more often to go for gold instead. Also, I think you might want to consider that it makes gold liquidity a lot more important and useful. It doesn't sound like it but the more I think on it the more reasonable it actually seems. For example pitting treatment costs against upgrade costs rewards playing better and avoiding stress and diseases by freeing up more gold to save toward upgrades, and makes the risk-reward tradeoff of dark runs more intriguing for that reason. I think it'd change the upgrade cycle into a more staggered thing where you do a few missions and go heavy on picking up heirlooms, but then you can stop for a while. As opposed to the current way things go where you make yourself sick doing Weald missions and once the Blacksmith and Stage Coach are maxed you never want to go back. EDIT: Jesus I just tallied the total number of Heirlooms needed for all town upgrades: 480 Busts, 482 Deeds, 241 Portraits, and 2007 Crests. That's 168 stacks of Crests.
Nakar fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 04:08
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Nakar posted:EDIT: Jesus I just tallied the total number of Heirlooms needed for all town upgrades: 480 Busts, 482 Deeds, 241 Portraits, and 2007 Crests. That's 168 stacks of Crests. A lot of that probably comes from Survivalist/Nomad Wagon, which really quickly ramp into ~100 crest upgrades. Ignoring the Survivalist is probably 400 crests on its own, which is eminently worthwhile because that's no more than 1000/2000 gold per character. EDIT: Seriously, Survivalist is way too many crests for not nearly enough benefit. I don't think any character has more than 2 camping skills you actually care about unlocking, it's just not worth it. Glidergun fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 04:25
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