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Alris posted:The best comparison imo is probably Thoughtseize, right? How did that affect things? Became affordable while in standard, rose and will continue to until its printed again I think (mtggoldfish down right now) It's a great example because it didn't crater the price, just allowed a new wave of people to get in on it. Those of us who have it now will probably not give a poo poo, when they reprint it again, and more people can have it, etc etc. Disclaimer: I only watch online prices. I would not pay $40 for a Thoughtseize lol
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Feb 4, 2016 02:17
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Of course, all this is happening because Magic is in an unusually long period of continuous growth - usually a flop like Theros block would have caused a contraction, instead it just slowed growth for a while. It will all fall apart spectacularly when Magic suffers its next big decline in popularity.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:20
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Thoughtseize was at about $40 up until sometime around Gatecrash, when it jumped up to $60. Theros pushed it back down to $40, where it's been since. Thoughtsieze hasn't been 40 bucks even at tcg mid in a long time. You can pick up plenty around 15 bucks atm. TCG mid is showing thoughtsieze little less than 20 bucks since late 2013.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:23
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Sickening posted:Thoughtsieze hasn't been 40 bucks even at tcg mid in a long time. You can pick up plenty around 15 bucks atm. My bad, I had the Lorwyn printing up so I could see pre-Theros price history and forgot to switch back to Thoughtseize in general when I checked the current price.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:26
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Thoughtseize was at about $40 up until sometime around Gatecrash, when it jumped up to $60. Theros pushed it back down to $40, where it's been since. That's the lorwyn printing . The Theros printing is only 20. EFB
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Feb 4, 2016 02:27
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Yeah who would have thought, reprinting very expensive cards at rare makes them affordable but still valuable, hire me also wizards
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Feb 4, 2016 02:29
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I'm going to put this here.. Was a 20-30 dollar card, now 
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Feb 4, 2016 02:43
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Bonus posted:Yeah who would have thought, reprinting very expensive cards at rare makes them affordable but still valuable, hire me also wizards Actually they should hire me, I've got this better idea where we reprint Spikeshot Elder but charge people a ton of money anyways.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:47
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Thoughtseize was at about $40 up until sometime around Gatecrash, when it jumped up to $60. Theros pushed it back down to $40, where it's been since. Theros pushed it down to 15$ for a while.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:48
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Thoughtseize was at about $40 up until sometime around Gatecrash, when it jumped up to $60. Theros pushed it back down to $40, where it's been since. Looks like I was beaten but the Lorwyn printing is $27 which is like a $10 premium over the theros one. It would be great if people talking about the benefits or evils of #mtgfinance actually were paying attention to card prices.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:49
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Lieutenant Centaur posted:Did they abolish 2HG on MODO yet? I vaguely remember that was a thing people were making a stink about They had 2HG on MODO? How the gently caress would that even work?
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Feb 4, 2016 02:49
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I am glad someone is here to defend the powerless denizens of guys who like to play dumber stock market, and there's no way he's one of those guys.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:52
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Entropic posted:They had 2HG on MODO? How the gently caress would that even work? It used the old 2HG rules where you take turns sequentially.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:53
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Thoughtsieze was $12.99 for a few weeks, that's when I pulled the trigger on a play set because I swear up and down I saw them for $80 at some point.
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Feb 4, 2016 02:57
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rabidsquid posted:I am glad someone is here to defend the powerless denizens of guys who like to play dumber stock market, and there's no way he's one of those guys. This thread gets completely retarded about a collectible card game, which was invented specifically to have rare cards that not everyone owned 4 of, having a collectibles market built into it. It's like bitching about having to build and paint warhammer models or complaining that you need to have friends to play D&D. Richard Garfield thought Black Lotus was OK because it was a rare so it could be powerful and that was a fine way to do things. He was obviously wrong, but Magic has been and has always been about being a collectible card game. WotC could print it as a living card game any time they like, but the giant bags of money they make off the CCG are much larger than any bag of money Fantasy Flight makes off of their LCGs, despite putting out new updates monthly and functionally turning those games into like $20/mo or $20/2month subscription games. But WotC does better than that over two drafts, which is quite possibly just one friday a month with the potential for 3 more of them. Like, the entire game can be pirated at any time for you and your friends for the cost of printer ink, so unless you're actually engaging the in the collectibles market you can just play proxy games all day. Or go onto cockatrice. Some of the most fun I've had playing this game is with a proxy powered cube. But expecting the collectible card game known as Magic the Gathering to ditch the collectibles market is and bitching that they aren't doing it, or better yet insinuating that they could make more money by doing it is ridiculous.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:01
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I think Thoughtseize and IoK also present a somewhat unique position as essentially being the perfect power level of allowed discard for Standard/Modern power levels. Stuff like Hymn will never get printed again and stuff like Duress is frequently Standard playable but is too Standard meta dependent to be an ideal discard spell and will probably never be good enough for Modern. There isn't a ton of room to maneuver about the power levels of discard within their current game design. Sigma-X posted:Like, the entire game can be pirated at any time for you and your friends for the cost of printer ink, so unless you're actually engaging the in the collectibles market you can just play proxy games all day. Or go onto cockatrice. Some of the most fun I've had playing this game is with a proxy powered cube. But expecting the collectible card game known as Magic the Gathering to ditch the collectibles market is and bitching that they aren't doing it, or better yet insinuating that they could make more money by doing it is ridiculous. You are never going to convince people to stop being unhappy about this aspect of the game. edit: There are a lot of strong parallels in this (that I think are not a coincidence) between people not wanting to just play with proxies that are similar to people feeling the desire to play the current "standard" D&D edition as opposed to playing a game they actually like. Of course in this MTG instance there are actually meaningful "sanctioned" events tied in, so it's not an entirely straight across the board similarity. rabidsquid fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 03:02
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Sigma-X posted:This thread gets completely retarded about a collectible card game, which was invented specifically to have rare cards that not everyone owned 4 of, having a collectibles market built into it. It's like bitching about having to build and paint warhammer models or complaining that you need to have friends to play D&D. Richard Garfield thought Black Lotus was OK because it was a rare so it could be powerful and that was a fine way to do things. He was obviously wrong, but Magic has been and has always been about being a collectible card game. WotC could print it as a living card game any time they like, but the giant bags of money they make off the CCG are much larger than any bag of money Fantasy Flight makes off of their LCGs, despite putting out new updates monthly and functionally turning those games into like $20/mo or $20/2month subscription games. But WotC does better than that over two drafts, which is quite possibly just one friday a month with the potential for 3 more of them. I don't think you could miss the point of the entire discussion any more than this. Bravo!! 
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Feb 4, 2016 03:05
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Like, you could probably reprint a modern playable in a big set like Theros and it would bring the price of your stupidly high cardboard down but not to the point where your investment was worthless. Let's look at this for a second: You've been playing Modern since it's creation, with your playset of Lorwyn Thoughtseizes, sitting pretty at twenty something dollars. Wow golly your cardboard went on a loving rollercoaster ride, Modern takes off and wow! Your thoughtseizes just shoot up forty dollars in the span of two years! You're on a Discard N' Pay 2 High! Then Theros comes out. Here's Ugly "Man With Bad Hair and a bad case of psoriasis" Thoughtseize. Your Lorywn Thoughtseizes plummet to 30 over a span of a year! Oh no! Your Value! You know what didn't change? Your loving ownership of the Thoughtseize. What I'm getting at is who cares if your modern staple gets reprinted, if nobody's noticed, Standard players don't give a flying gently caress and sell their now useless Thoughtseizes away to people who actually will buy them for higher than 20 bucks.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:11
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Sigma-X posted:This thread gets completely retarded about a collectible card game, which was invented specifically to have rare cards that not everyone owned 4 of, having a collectibles market built into it. It's like bitching about having to build and paint warhammer models or complaining that you need to have friends to play D&D. Richard Garfield thought Black Lotus was OK because it was a rare so it could be powerful and that was a fine way to do things. He was obviously wrong, but Magic has been and has always been about being a collectible card game. WotC could print it as a living card game any time they like, but the giant bags of money they make off the CCG are much larger than any bag of money Fantasy Flight makes off of their LCGs, despite putting out new updates monthly and functionally turning those games into like $20/mo or $20/2month subscription games. But WotC does better than that over two drafts, which is quite possibly just one friday a month with the potential for 3 more of them. Or unless you're playing in sanctioned events Also that's not why TCGs were invented You are incorrect about literally every part of this
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Feb 4, 2016 03:11
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e^^: If collectible card games were not invented to introduce collectibility to a card game you're gonna have to spell it out for me in small words here because that's too loving complex a concept for me. Like, the game originally didn't have the 4x rule because Garfield didn't think people would try to buy up enough of them jam a deck of just lightning bolts and lotuses together because that would require someone to be an obsessive whale which was a concept that wouldn't hit game development for another 15 years. he totally thought people were going to buy some packs and trade them and collect them like you do baseball cards or beanie babies.Sickening posted:I don't think you could miss the point of the entire discussion any more than this. Bravo!! The point is, and always is, that $desired_format is too expensive, so they should reduce it to $arbitrary_cost_I_think_is_fair, which will make them more money is obviously smart because I'm smart and they're dumb and as a consumer of their game I totally understand their business model more than the dozens of people employed by them that have made it work for 23 years Like I totally get that fun formats are too expensive. I don't play Standard because gently caress that, I stick to Legacy and Modern because outside of abrupt decays and Newlamog I haven't had to buy new cards because my collection is older. I totally get wanting to play those fun formats. But there is no loving argument that we can retread here again that is in any way not "thing I want is too expensive, so it should be cheaper." And that's not going to make them change their ways and it was a boring conversation five loving years ago when I first starting blocking people in this thread who wouldn't shut up about it. Sigma-X fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 03:12
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Like scarcity of the cards was the justification for the power of Lotus, not the reason, and originally there wasn't a restriction on the number of copies per deck and oh my god you are just the wrongest motherfucker ever
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Feb 4, 2016 03:13
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Sigma-X posted:The point is, and always is, that $desired_format is too expensive, so they should reduce it to $arbitrary_cost_I_think_is_fair, which will make them more money is obviously smart because I'm smart and they're dumb and as a consumer of their game I totally understand their business model more than the dozens of people employed by them that have made it work for 23 years So shut the gently caress up about it if you don't want to have the conversation, because you clearly haven't learned anything from previous iterations of it
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Feb 4, 2016 03:13
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It's actually good that the 4 of restriction came in to existence as it allows the greatest card of all-time, Relentless Rats, to shine in a way that would otherwise be impossible.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:14
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rabidsquid posted:It's actually good that the 4 of restriction came in to existence as it allows the greatest card of all-time, Relentless Rats, to shine in a way that would otherwise be impossible. Yo this is real
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Feb 4, 2016 03:15
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Literally The Worst posted:So shut the gently caress up about it if you don't want to have the conversation, because you clearly haven't learned anything from previous iterations of it there is literally nothing to learn about this terrible screeching about how the game is too expensive which is a problem that can be solved if WotC just wants to give up a bunch of money
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Feb 4, 2016 03:15
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Sigma-X posted:there is literally nothing to learn about this terrible screeching about how the game is too expensive which is a problem that can be solved if WotC just wants to give up a bunch of money How is WotC giving up money by printing cards people want that they have not printed in twenty years
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Feb 4, 2016 03:16
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Sigma-X posted:there is literally nothing to learn about this terrible screeching about how the game is too expensive which is a problem that can be solved if WotC just wants to give up a bunch of money So how much of a cut from a Scalding Tarn does WotC get?
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Feb 4, 2016 03:16
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Like you go LOOK I DONT PLAY STANDARD like literally anyone is talking about Standard entry prices like that's a thing WotC can control as opposed to being able to print more of staple cards for eternal formats and all I can get from this is that you're illiterate
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Feb 4, 2016 03:17
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Also you're arguing what happened with Thoughtsieze and the allied fetchlands should not happen again even though the only downside to that was
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Feb 4, 2016 03:18
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e:^^ no I'm not, I'm saying they're not going to flatten the loving price of modern overnight like everyone wants, they're instead going to do these individual reprints occassionally because it turns out putting fetches in khans made it sell better than any other set in history, just like the RTR shocklands did, and it'll happen again when they do ZenFetches. They're not going to print "modern: the set" and flatten that value in a year, or if they do, it's because they're looking to squeeze all the money out of the game before it dies quickly.Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:So how much of a cut from a Scalding Tarn does WotC get? Their solution to sell more packs was to put premium copies of Tarn into one pack out of every 4300 or so to prop up a boring as gently caress set that wouldn't sell otherwise and they did gangbusters with it, so I'd say it's loving huge? Like seriously read this article that pretty much explains exactly how WotC benefits from the secondary market if you think that not selling old rares to players directly is keeping them from making money off the existence of the secondary market: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/how-wizards-manages-its-savings-account
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Feb 4, 2016 03:19
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Playing with fetchlands in Standard against people who are not used to playing with them wastes a ton of time, but as long as they're going to be in Modern and Legacy I guess they need to be reprinted in Standard. I think they should have banned fetches in Modern when they instead busted our dear friend One Mana Planeswalker to be honest. Sigma-X posted:Their solution to sell more packs was to put premium copies of Tarn into one pack out of every 4300 or so to prop up a boring as gently caress set that wouldn't sell otherwise and they did gangbusters with it, so I'd say it's loving huge? They could also just move product by designing fun sets. I understand the concept but it's sort of lovely to be like "Well we are designing stuff nobody wants to buy but using reprints so people will feel compelled to buy it anyway" edit: Also this sort of conditions people to not buy the fun products if they don't have reprinted staples which is shooting themselves in the foot. rabidsquid fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 03:20
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I genuinely hope we get Double Sided Flip Cards again, just because it means the odds of Jace being in a Clash Pack go from Zero to 1 percent. Sense it would eliminate the "we cant do this because of special print runs of DFC!" excuse to not do that, and because there is no way in hell Jace won't be even STRONGER with all the graveyard bullshit Innistrad is sure to have..... I get the impression that Wizards is deliberately trying to put at least a few cards they know are really good in each clash pack lately.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:21
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I made this point much earlier in this thread but something doesn't have to be worth dolla dolla bills to be "collectible." My father has coin collections that he made entirely out of going through rolls of in-circulation coins from the bank. Obviously he's never going to have a 1793 half penny that way but the point is that the sets of objects he does have are no less collections for it. Ostentatious displays of wealth are a separate category that intersect only by coincidence with the hobbies of collecting or trading, and the acronym is TCG/CCG, not ODOWCG.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:22
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rabidsquid posted:I think Thoughtseize and IoK also present a somewhat unique position as essentially being the perfect power level of allowed discard for Standard/Modern power levels. Stuff like Hymn will never get printed again and stuff like Duress is frequently Standard playable but is too Standard meta dependent to be an ideal discard spell and will probably never be good enough for Modern.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:23
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Reprint Force of Will in a modern-legal set.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:23
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Duress is played in modern and legacy sideboards plenty. It's not a 4 of in every single black mainboard but I don't think that's a bad thing. If Duress were the best available discard things would be very different. I understand the card has niche value.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:24
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ThePeavstenator posted:Reprint Force of Will in a modern-legal set. Would involve being printed in standard, lmao no
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Feb 4, 2016 03:26
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rabidsquid posted:They could also just move product by designing fun sets. I understand the concept but it's sort of lovely to be like "Well we are designing stuff nobody wants to buy but using reprints so people will feel compelled to buy it anyway" I totally agree and was hoping they'd do that with this set that was coming back to Eldrazi, because ROE was the best loving limited format and was fun as hell with lots of cool cards but they hosed that up and they realized it at some point during development so they hedged their bets with Expeditions. They totally suckered me too because I bought a box on the hedge that maybe this will actually be a fun set and if not maybe I'll open an expedition and it turns out I did neither! I'm all for cheaper magic as a concept but that's not an argument that gets a publicly traded company to stop printing money and start printing a smaller batch of money using the same money printing press that used to print a lot of it, but that's the only loving argument that people make in this thread about it. e: FoW would be awesome in standard but would just make modern into lovely legacy and if we wanted to play lovely legacy Tiny Leaders would be popular still
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Feb 4, 2016 03:27
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Man, as someone who hasn't played magic at all since 2nd ed in anything but casual, friend on friend settings, its like you guys are speaking another language.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:28
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Literally The Worst posted:Would involve being printed in standard, lmao no I am for printing FoW in Standard just so people know what it's like, just fyi. also it enables processors.
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Feb 4, 2016 03:28
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