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The Vosgian Beast posted:He's just interested in things, okay I often wonder how hard it really is just to admit that right-wing person X said thing Y, and progressive person Z disagrees with the ethical sentiments expressed in Y. The amazing thing is you don't even have to admit that person Z is correct that Y is unethical to admit this! These massive epic quests to avoid ever having to acknowledge progressive people have actual normative beliefs are not remotely needed!
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Feb 4, 2016 15:46
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RMS is not a libertarian. He supports Bernie Sanders and the freaking Green Party.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:03
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The Vosgian Beast posted:I often wonder how hard it really is just to admit that right-wing person X said thing Y, and progressive person Z disagrees with the ethical sentiments expressed in Y. There's a shocking number of people to whom it is completely inconceivable that other people have different perspectives and that those perspectives could lead to different positions and conclusions. To such people, disagreement can only be actively mendacious.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:14
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If you are as smart as I am and come to different conclusions about the fundamental meanings of life or politics (but I repeat myself) then that implies that pure Reason can not lead one to correct conclusions and my priors cause me to run away screaming lest your clearly deranged memes infect me.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:23
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Peztopiary posted:If you are as smart as I am and come to different conclusions about the fundamental meanings of life or politics (but I repeat myself) then that implies that pure Reason can not lead one to correct conclusions and my priors cause me to run away screaming lest your clearly deranged memes infect me. Yeah, basically. I've seen it more often as 'because logic is perfect and I am rational, if you come to different conclusions than me you must either be ignorant or mentally ill or an evil liar', but it's the same poo poo.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:57
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neonnoodle posted:RMS is not a libertarian. He supports Bernie Sanders and the freaking Green Party. It was meant to be about them both having problems with the federal government and one going to a left-leaning / anarchist mindset and the other being a raging right-wing authoritarian dipshit. The dude self-identifies liberal and believes in personal liberties, I wasn't claiming he was a Ron Paul FYGM-er.
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Feb 4, 2016 17:03
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Tesseraction posted:It was meant to be about them both having problems with the federal government and one going to a left-leaning / anarchist mindset and the other being a raging right-wing authoritarian dipshit. The dude self-identifies liberal and believes in personal liberties, I wasn't claiming he was a Ron Paul FYGM-er. scroll down to libertarianism
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Feb 4, 2016 19:19
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Cingulate posted:Whose agenda? This ESR person? I don't know, probably something related to taxes and government trying to help the disenfranchised? Trying to "prove" that Haitians are mentally retarded on average has nothing whatsoever to do with truth and everything to do with a political agenda.
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Feb 5, 2016 00:48
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Edit: A little excessive, in hindsight.
ded redd has a new favorite as of 02:20 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 02:18
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Trying to "prove" that Haitians are mentally retarded on average has nothing whatsoever to do with truth and everything to do with a political agenda. As presented in that post, it's also really, really bad science. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and any claim that 50+% of the population is intellectually disabled in a nation of 10 million people (and that nobody in a nation of 10 million people is as smart as an average guy who reads a blog!) is by definition an extraordinary loving claim, not just something you can throw out to make a lovely argument about "violent idiots." It makes the dude come off as a guy who'd calculate pi to 4.5 and nod sagely, realizing how much easier that makes his calculations -- e.g., an actual idiot.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:37
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Antivehicular posted:As presented in that post, it's also really, really bad science. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and any claim that 50+% of the population is intellectually disabled in a nation of 10 million people (and that nobody in a nation of 10 million people is as smart as an average guy who reads a blog!) is by definition an extraordinary loving claim, not just something you can throw out to make a lovely argument about "violent idiots." It makes the dude come off as a guy who'd calculate pi to 4.5 and nod sagely, realizing how much easier that makes his calculations -- e.g., an actual idiot. - does this score reflect environment (extreme poverty, disease load, stress etc) or genes? - does this score reflect intelligence in a wider and important sense, or a much narrower ability that means you're very good at solving tests and also correlates with how well you do with some aspects of western society, but doesn't necessarily speak to how "smart" you are? Neither of which is currently a settled debate, and if you have a strong opinion here, you must either admit to having taken it up as a matter of faith, or be delusional.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:50
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For a guy who's totally not a racist neoreactionary you sure spend a lot of time talking about how anyone who thinks darkies aren't biologically inferior is delusional.
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Feb 5, 2016 03:13
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Cingulate posted:I'm not that skeptical of the Haitian IQ being very low. (Maybe it's not 60, but 70; when Lynn tried to estimate the IQ of subsaharan Africa, he carefully picked his samples so that he cheated them down from 80 to 70 after all; but okay, that's still very low.) The questions are rather I'll yield that it's totally possible that the IQ number is accurate, in the sense that that's the number that IQ testing came up with, but my point is that looking at that data and concluding it represents anything meaningful about the cognitive capacities of Haitian citizens is incredibly lovely science. A big part of being a scientist is being able to recognize implausible results and either discard them or go to extra lengths to prove they're reasonable. You don't look at test results like that poo poo and just decide they're obviously accurate, let alone start making proclamations based on them. EDIT: Also, even the jump from "IQ 70" to "intellectual disability/violent idiots," like ESR does, isn't defensible. Modern evaluation of intellectual disability involves IQ tests, but it also involves evaluation of day-to-day life skills, practical learning, social functioning, and general ability to function as an independent adult. I'm going to hazard a guess that, if you evaluate the average Haitian citizen via these parameters, you're not going to see someone whose deficiencies fit an intellectual-disability model instead of a "scraping by in a desperately difficult environment" model. Antivehicular has a new favorite as of 03:25 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 03:16
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Let's take it as read - what would low IQ "explain"?
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Feb 5, 2016 03:16
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Lottery of Babylon posted:For a guy who's totally not a racist neoreactionary you sure spend a lot of time talking about how anyone who thinks darkies aren't biologically inferior is delusional. JAQing off is all he does in this thread.
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Feb 5, 2016 03:20
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Remember - IQ was never designed to measure 'intelligence'. It was designed to measure progress through education.
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Feb 5, 2016 03:48
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Lottery of Babylon posted:For a guy who's totally not a racist neoreactionary you sure spend a lot of time talking about how anyone who thinks darkies aren't biologically inferior is delusional. Cingulate's problem is that he gets waaaaayyyyyy too hung up on niggling inaccuracies that literally don't matter to someone's overall point, but apparently matter a great deal to him. Which is not to say that his derails aren't grating, just that I don't think he's defending the racist poo poo so much as being an obnoxious nitpicker. Like I have no idea what all the statistics arglebargle was in specific, but I could follow enough to tell that it's more about "you're doing the math wrong IT'S WRONG DAMMIT AND I CAN'T ACCEPT A WRONG MATH!" Mostly I'd just like to see less Cingulate derails in general because they're not terribly interesting or applicable to the topic and are usually the same thing over and over.
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Feb 5, 2016 05:33
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The Lone Badger posted:Remember - IQ was never designed to measure 'intelligence'. It was designed to measure progress through education. Come to think of it, it's kind of hard to have progress through education when the entire world is dead set on preventing your country from having a functional education system...
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Feb 5, 2016 05:41
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IQ is pretty much the single best measure we have of your ability to complete an IQ test For anything else, eh
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Feb 5, 2016 06:11
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What are your answers to those two questions, Cingulate?
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Feb 5, 2016 06:20
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Lottery of Babylon posted:For a guy who's totally not a racist neoreactionary you sure spend a lot of time talking about how anyone who thinks darkies aren't biologically inferior is delusional. Cingulate I want you to read this post. Your point is so loving abhorrently racist that you made loving Lottery of Babylon drop his schtick to make a serious post. You're literally saying that Haiti is a nation of mentally deficient humans, because they couldn't pass a test that a white guy wrote. How do you feel about literacy tests for voting in the United States?
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Feb 5, 2016 07:00
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Puppy Time posted:
If people don't want Cingulate to call them out for saying things that are wrong and dumb, they could always just not say things that are wrong and dumb. Personally I find he helps keep the thread more readable.
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Feb 5, 2016 07:21
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Patrick Spens posted:If people don't want Cingulate to call them out for saying things that are wrong and dumb, they could always just not say things that are wrong and dumb. Personally I find he helps keep the thread more readable. Lottery of Babylon posted:For a guy who's totally not a racist neoreactionary you sure spend a lot of time talking about how anyone who thinks darkies aren't biologically inferior is delusional. Cingulate do you have any other commands?
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Feb 5, 2016 07:59
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Of course, if females and darkies did well on IQ tests then the white men would scientifically accept that, being rational and willing to follow the evidence where it goes.quote:A good example is IQ (intelligence quotient) testing. In 1994, a spirited defence of the IQ test results, including the differential results for racial groups, appeared in Richard Herrnstein's and Charles Murray's The Bell Curve. The claim was that there is an accurate measure of intelligence (which the authors, albeit with qualifications, that it is distributed as a bell-shaped curve - what mathematicians call a Gaussian distribution - and that extensive surveys indicate that American blacks score significantly worse than whites. In the course of a review of the book, the philosopher Ian Hacking notes that the first extensive IQ tests were performed on US army recruits in 1917, and African Americans did worse than whites. This was evidently expected, so the results met the testers' expectations. But when the tests were subsequently performed on the population in general, women had higher scores than men. This didn't seem right to the testers, so they identified the questions the women did better on and replaced them. As a result, women and men came out equal. This was not the end of the matter however. A month after the appearance of Hacking's review, a letter appeared in the same journal recounting the experience in Kenya in 1930. A psychologist, R. A. C. Oliver, had been employed by a major US corporation to seek out talented blacks who could subsequently be sent to college and trained as teachers. Oliver used an IQ test to do this, experimenting with what was considered the most reliable form of nonverbal testing, the Porteus Maze Test. The local blacks, it turned out, approached maze problems in a very different way from the white children for whom the test had originally been devised, and scored higher, demonstrating maze-solving techniques and skills that were beyond those of the white population. The questions were removed from subsequent IQ tests. (source, bolding mine. Edit: Ian Hacking review referenced above, letter referenced above) Cingulate is fiercely defending the validity of tests specifically and knowingly tuned to make white men win. You can do detailed statistical analysis on completely fraudulent bullshit, but we're objecting to the fact that it's really well known and documented to be completely fraudulent bullshit and your detailed statistical analysis is the garbage out from garbage in, and appears to lend this known completely fraudulent bullshit validity it doesn't warrant. divabot has a new favorite as of 11:07 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 09:36
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It seems like the sensible thing to do there would be to look at what cognitive elements underlie things like the Kenyans getting sick maze scores and women doing better than men, so you could teach that to everyone, but I guess I'm just not as good at racism as some.
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Feb 5, 2016 11:05
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Antivehicular posted:I'll yield that it's totally possible that the IQ number is accurate, in the sense that that's the number that IQ testing came up with, but my point is that looking at that data and concluding it represents anything meaningful about the cognitive capacities of Haitian citizens is incredibly lovely science Antivehicular posted:EDIT: Also, even the jump from "IQ 70" to "intellectual disability/violent idiots," like ESR does, isn't defensible. Modern evaluation of intellectual disability involves IQ tests, but it also involves evaluation of day-to-day life skills, practical learning, social functioning, and general ability to function as an independent adult. I'm going to hazard a guess that, if you evaluate the average Haitian citizen via these parameters, you're not going to see someone whose deficiencies fit an intellectual-disability model instead of a "scraping by in a desperately difficult environment" model. But yeah, I basically agree with you. Science is hard. Merdifex posted:What are your answers to those two questions, Cingulate? I guess in the context of NRx, the idea is to support the claim that the West should either ignore Haiti in times of need and let it rot, or rule over it in a neo-colonial fashion. If for some reason you truly want to know what Internet Poster Cingulate instead thinks about a reasonable policy towards Haiti: I still don't know; aid doesn't seem to be working, we usually turn it into a measure of economic and political dominance. Maybe we should let them develop for once? Or maybe we should just control the aid better, like, hand it to some institution with a historic track record of actually genuinely helping? But who'd that be? I really don't know, I'm just pulling ideas out of my butt. Either way, I doubt IQ or intelligence of Haitians are all that important for this question. Cingulate has a new favorite as of 11:18 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 11:12
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So why the gently caress do you keep posting about it then
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Feb 5, 2016 11:14
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Nessus posted:So why the gently caress do you keep posting about it then Somfin posted:How do you feel about literacy tests for voting in the United States? Currently, AFAIK, literacy tests in the US are associated with racism, because they're intended and implemented so as to shut out minorities. However, for example, in then largely ethnically homogenous Germany before the mid-90s, you'd sometimes see the left ask for similar things from the idea that it would filter out all the uneducated racists. So if somehow that first fact would have been unknown to me, and the second one very salient, I might have, from a good anti-racist spirit, said yes, good idea (thinking: to reduce the number of rednecks voting Republican because they have heard on talk radio that B. Ussama is a Muslim). In principle, I'm opposed to it because I think the primary goal of democracy is not to select the best policies, but to best represent citizen choices. In practice, I'm all for education efforts, it's only we somehow suck at them. (That's also, to get back to the NRx thing, one reason why I discard Moldbugian thinking without consideration: even if monarchy was better at selecting policies, and it clearly is not, it would still be unjust, as it would be un-free. My own political ideology is currently an incoherent mix of Popperian thinking and Rawls-or-maybe-just-straight-out-Socialism.) divabot posted:Cingulate is fiercely defending the validity of tests You're bad at understanding what people who you feel disagree with you say. Which is not good for somebody who spends their days reading what people they strongly disagree with say.
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Feb 5, 2016 11:28
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Haha yeah exactly. Being fair the rest of this is pretty great too.
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Feb 5, 2016 11:33
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Puppy Time posted:Which is not to say that his derails aren't grating, just that I don't think he's defending the racist poo poo so much as being an obnoxious nitpicker. Like I have no idea what all the statistics arglebargle was in specific, but I could follow enough to tell that it's more about "you're doing the math wrong IT'S WRONG DAMMIT AND I CAN'T ACCEPT A WRONG[STATS]!"  The stats bit wasn't too complicated actually - I pointed out it'd be plausible that IQ behaves like most other natural traits of living beings, where if you look at populations closer to 0, the variation in these these populations is much smaller. So if you think of the variance in size between different kinds of bedbug, it's very small - on the order of a few tenths of millimeters or so. If you look at the variance within blue whales, it's much larger - on the order of meters. And I think we observe a roughly similar thing with regards to IQ - that in populations with lower means, the variance is smaller. (This is a very, very weak argument for some validity of IQ as measuring something real I guess.) And King of Hearts said there is no mathematical necessity for why this must hold for all variances ever, which is also true. Cingulate has a new favorite as of 11:40 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 11:35
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You still haven't answered the question of what that would actually imply.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:17
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:You still haven't answered the question of what that would actually imply.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:22
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Cingulate posted:Can you ask that a bit more precisely? (What would what imply for what?) What do IQ tests actually measure for, and how are they relevant to relations between people?
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Feb 5, 2016 14:00
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:What do IQ tests actually measure for E.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence:_Knowns_and_Unknowns https://www.mensa.ch/sites/default/files/Intelligence_Neisser1996.pdf http://www.intelltheory.com/apa96.shtml http://web.archive.org/web/19970102210846/http://www.apa.org/releases/intell.html HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:how are they relevant to relations between people? Cingulate has a new favorite as of 14:31 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 14:28
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Nessus posted:What if it is Cingulate who is wrong and dumb, though? Well we can worry about that when it happens. I'd prefer if we could just point and laugh at the morons without people tripping over themselves in righteousness. But as that is clearly impossible, it's nice to have him keeping y'all honest.
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Feb 5, 2016 16:09
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Cingulate posted:I'm gonna defer to the APA 1996 Intelligence Task Force Report. I'd personally be a bit more pessimistic wherever IQ is applied to anybody but WEIRD people in general, and possibly in general for standard methodological concerns, but while I'd draw a somewhat larger uncertainty region, I'd draw it around this expert consensus. You know what he means. Why should we care about IQ at all? And here's an aptitude test I just built for you in particular: see if you can stop yourself from crowing about the accuracy of claims made about IQ in this thread unless you yourself can define 1) intelligence and 2) race in a way that actually furthers the discussion in a meaningful way. It measures literacy, positive socialization, self-control, and resilience. We'll know whether or not you pass by measuring how badly the thread is shitted up by your future participation.
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Feb 5, 2016 16:48
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Every single entry on this blog reads exactly like this gif
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Feb 5, 2016 16:55
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Jack Gladney posted:You know what he means. Why should we care about IQ at all? Jack Gladney posted:And here's an aptitude test I just built for you in particular: see if you can stop yourself from crowing about the accuracy of claims made about IQ in this thread unless you yourself can define 1) intelligence and 2) race in a way that actually furthers the discussion in a meaningful way. It measures literacy, positive socialization, self-control, and resilience. We'll know whether or not you pass by measuring how badly the thread is shitted up by your future participation. Jack Gladney posted:You know what he means. Why should we care about IQ at all? E:  Yup, that's pretty NRx. Cingulate has a new favorite as of 17:20 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 17:18
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Who the heck is this guy?
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Feb 5, 2016 17:22
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neonnoodle posted:Who the heck is this guy? Gawddamn, look at that face  .
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