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The PPN were also the ones smart enough to stay off the refuge in the first place, weren't they? BJ Soper isn't facing any charges.
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Feb 5, 2016 06:08
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https://twitter.com/LesZaitz/status/695453334187089920Rodenthar Drothman posted:"Oh ... poo poo ... these people are *actually* insane." For those keeping track: DENIAL ANGER BARGAINING ***DEPRESSION*** ACCEPTANCE
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Feb 5, 2016 06:21
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Well this is precious.  "There are *ARMED* people at this BLM owned site, this is obviously scary and threatening! It's only innocent and peaceful when it's *patriots* doing it!" FYI, there was actually a police call today from BLM employees at this site about someone with militia crap all over his vehicle who went in, refused to pay, wouldn't talk to anyone, wandered around for a while and then left. The employees felt he was acting suspiciously. http://www.bakercityherald.com/Local-News/Police-check-out-concerns-at-Interpretive-Center-after-man-acts-suspiciously
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Feb 5, 2016 06:22
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Intel&Sebastian posted:My opinion that they could have done better isn't stemming from me thinking they did an awful job (they didn't). It stems from me thinking that the FBI is better than a 3 week fiasco that prompted the governor of the state to buck them and say "whaaat the fuuuuuuuuck" publicly. Prester Jane posted:Found this interview with a couple of gonzo journalists who apparently were allowed on the refuge during the occupation. I haven't listened to the entire thing, but I recommend that you skip right to 24:30. According to these guys the militants strait up admitted that they had "planted people in the community" as a strategy to deter direct action against the occupation because the people in the,community were there "to do collateral damage to the community" if anything happened to the occupiers. Skinty McEdger posted:The PPN's story is that they planned their march, the FBI discovered it and contacted them and said "this would not be a good idea, the 4 left have gone crazy paranoid and will shoot you if you approach because they think its a trap."
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Feb 5, 2016 06:25
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I definitely don't think they did anything in direct response to the governor's talking, but the fact that it went on so long she went against them and spoke out says a lot about the situation around the state outside the reserve in those 3 weeks, it's a sign that it went on too long. It wasn't just some annoyance.
Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 06:33
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the fbi should have just set a fire like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53DVN6s0gas&t=4711s
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Feb 5, 2016 06:39
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I definitely don't think they did anything in direct response to the governor's talking, but the fact that it went on so long she went against them and spoke out says a lot about the situation around the state outside the reserve in those 3 weeks, it's a sign that it went on too long. It wasn't just some annoyance. Everyone has a role. The governor of Oregon is pissed off because poo poo is going down in her state and she wants it fixed nowish. The FBI also wants to shut it down but is far more willing to wait because there is an institutional memory of Waco and Ruby Ridge. Both points of view are valid and in retrospect I think the FBI had the right idea. Storming the refuge would have been a loving bloodbath in and of itself and we are finding out that it's more and more likely that some of the militia sympathisers would have attacked federal buildings in Burns which would have put civilians directly in harms way. Burns isn't out of danger yet but the situation would have sucked a lot worse if the FBI had raided and triggered a shootout.
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Feb 5, 2016 06:45
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Prester Jane posted:Found this interview with a couple of gonzo journalists who apparently were allowed on the refuge during the occupation. I haven't listened to the entire thing, but I recommend that you skip right to 24:30. According to these guys the militants strait up admitted that they had "planted people in the community" as a strategy to deter direct action against the occupation because the people in the,community were there "to do collateral damage to the community" if anything happened to the occupiers. So they all but admit that they are operating out of the terrorism playbook here? Cutting off the head of the militants when they got bored and (more) stupid was absolutely necessarily to keep them in the "all talk" stage, it seems. Why is this kind of thing not in the news?
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Feb 5, 2016 10:44
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buttcoinbrony posted:Everyone has a role. The governor of Oregon is pissed off because poo poo is going down in her state and she wants it fixed nowish. The FBI also wants to shut it down but is far more willing to wait because there is an institutional memory of Waco and Ruby Ridge. Both points of view are valid and in retrospect I think the FBI had the right idea. Bundy and others were leaving the compound weeks before they were finally apprehended, and it wasn't until they were apprehended that the FBI finally cracked down on allowing people in and out of the place, so no matter how you slice it, the FBI wasted a lot of time.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:26
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Wasting time is fine, especially when you get to watch a bunch of numbskulls humiliate themselves for the world to see.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:28
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Tesseraction posted:Wasting time is fine, especially when you get to watch a bunch of numbskulls humiliate themselves for the world to see. No, wasting time while a crime is in the process of being committed is not fine, actually.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:32
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I can't blame them being cautious when a bunch of idiots with their screws loose are wandering around hot-carrying. I agree I would have preferred they acted sooner, but I more appreciate them prioritising minimal casualties.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:34
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Tesseraction posted:I can't blame them being cautious when a bunch of idiots with their screws loose are wandering around hot-carrying. I agree I would have preferred they acted sooner, but I more appreciate them prioritising minimal casualties. Yeah, that seems like a pretty good general principle for law enforcement. Even if it does mean we might not get the satisfaction of seeing some jackasses punished vigorously.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:39
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Volkerball posted:Bundy and others were leaving the compound weeks before they were finally apprehended, and it wasn't until they were apprehended that the FBI finally cracked down on allowing people in and out of the place, so no matter how you slice it, the FBI wasted a lot of time. There were people in the town of Burns who would have attacked if the FBI had only grabbed a couple of the leadership instead of getting basically the entire leadership team in one swoop. The FBI wasn't wasteing time, it had no options that did not risk signifigant violence. The FBI managed to find a way to largely disarm the refuge occupation with a minimum of bloodshed. If the FBI had picked off a few of the leadership in town the rest would have panicked and either turned violent or taken signifigant precautions to prevent their arrest such that it could only have been accomplished with more violence. I would argue that waiting for your enemy to make a mistake is not wasteing time, particularly when almost anything could have set these people off. The decapitation strike followed by a show of force featuring 150 armored vehicles and a Blackhawk helicopter was a master stroke for defusing the situation. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 13:40
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Volkerball posted:Bundy and others were leaving the compound weeks before they were finally apprehended, and it wasn't until they were apprehended that the FBI finally cracked down on allowing people in and out of the place, so no matter how you slice it, the FBI wasted a lot of time. This was the first time that I'm aware of that almost the entire leadership could be arrested in one go. Opportunistically snapping up one or two of them would have been ineffective - it likely would have led to a lockdown at the refuge, not (nearly) everyone else running.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:41
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Tesseraction posted:I can't blame them being cautious when a bunch of idiots with their screws loose are wandering around hot-carrying. I agree I would have preferred they acted sooner, but I more appreciate them prioritising minimal casualties. How is it prioritizing minimal casualties when the exact same scenario that prompted them to act had happened before? How is scooping them up from that protest or any other time the leaders left any different than when they did decide to act?
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Feb 5, 2016 13:42
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I'm afraid my reply has been pre-empted by Perfectly Safe above you.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:44
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Prester Jane posted:If the FBI had picked off a few of the leadership in town the rest would have panicked and either turned violent or taken signifigant precautions to prevent their arrest such that it could only have been accomplished with more violence. Cooper was still there, as were a few other leaders. There's a leader there now. Most of them still left once the head got chopped off.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:45
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Volkerball posted:Cooper was still there, as were a few other leaders. There's a leader there now. Most of them still left once the head got chopped off. Cooper was the only member of leadership present at the refuge when the arrests happened. He tried to rally a defense but failed because the rest of leadership was in custody. That kind of decapitation breaks legitimate armies. The "leader" there now is someone who only leads the 4 remaining idiots, he had no part of leadership prior to this. If there had been enough of a leadership team in place when Ammon got arrested (imagine if Lavoy had still been at the refuge) Then things could have gone down very differently.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:50
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Volkerball posted:Cooper was still there, as were a few other leaders. There's a leader there now. Most of them still left once the head got chopped off. Who is the leader at the refuge now? It seems that there are four people there now who didn't have enough self-determination to leave of their own accord. They are still there because nobody's told them not to be.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:53
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My understanding was tarpman was just a guy who was mainly notable because he was tarpman. Cooper was way more important. The Bundy's were the key capture in that traffic stop, and I'm pretty sure both of those guys had gone to that protest thing a week or so earlier.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:56
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Volkerball posted:My understanding was tarpman was just a guy who was mainly notable because he was tarpman. Cooper was way more important. The Bundy's were the key capture in that traffic stop, and I'm pretty sure both of those guys had gone to that protest thing a week or so earlier. Don't think so. Finnacum was a spokesman for the whole group. Cooper was part of the "inner circle", I suppose, but I can't think of a single instance in which he was really speaking for the group or visibly directing activity. And there's the fact that he was, to all appearances, just not very bright. So the idea that Cooper was important in a hierarchical sense is something that would need to be backed up. I'd also direct your attention to the Santilli arrest video in which he tells Cooper that he needs to take a leadership role and get people out of the refuge. That's Santilli, self-styled outsider, telling Cooper to step up.
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Feb 5, 2016 14:04
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From day 1 cooper was all dressed up in multicams talking at all the press conferences. I didn't even recognize finicums face when the tarpman video came out.
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Feb 5, 2016 14:06
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Volkerball posted:My understanding was tarpman was just a guy who was mainly notable because he was tarpman. Cooper was way more important. The Bundy's were the key capture in that traffic stop, and I'm pretty sure both of those guys had gone to that protest thing a week or so earlier. Tarpman was part of leadership and was their spokesman. He was well liked, passionate, and charismatic. If he had been at the refuge when the Bundy's were taken in his actions demonstrate that he would have almost certainly tried to rally a defense and, considering the esteem he was held in, may well have succeeded. Santilli was higher in leadership than Cooper (as evidenced by his trying to order Cooper around in the immediate aftermath of the arrests) and was also arrested before anyone had fled the refuge. The Bundy's were important, but not the sole detaining factor in the success of the operation.
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Feb 5, 2016 14:08
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Prester Jane posted:Santilli was higher in leadership than Cooper (as evidenced by his trying to order Cooper around in the immediate aftermath of the arrests) Alexander Haig may have said "I'm in charge here" after Reagan was shot, but that didn't mean he was right.
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Feb 5, 2016 14:11
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Volkerball posted:From day 1 cooper was all dressed up in multicams talking at all the press conferences. I didn't even recognize finicums face when the tarpman video came out. Sorry man, I don't know what to tell you. If you just go and take a look at news reports about the occupation (literally do a google news search now) then you will see the Bundys and Finnacum all the drat time. Cooper? No.
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Feb 5, 2016 14:12
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Wooow I want a version of Vacation but the nerdy dad is taking them to this bird refuge instead and when the militants say it's closed he forces them at gun point to let his family play with the back hoe.
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Feb 5, 2016 14:16
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Prester Jane posted:Santilli was higher in leadership than Cooper (as evidenced by his trying to order Cooper around in the immediate aftermath of the arrests) and was also arrested before anyone had fled the refuge. He was trying to order Cooper around because he thought Cooper was going to get his kids and the other people at the refuge killed. He was pleading with him.
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Feb 5, 2016 14:17
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Volkerball posted:Bundy and others were leaving the compound weeks before they were finally apprehended, and it wasn't until they were apprehended that the FBI finally cracked down on allowing people in and out of the place, so no matter how you slice it, the FBI wasted a lot of time. As has been said multiple times, this was the first time the entire leadership was gone, and the previous times Bundy left he was surrounded by both supportive men with guns and media Edit: and it doesn't matter where Cooper was in the heirarchy - he folded immediately, which means the FBI made the right call. They got both Bundys and a bunch of lieutenants for minimal risk, something that had never been possible before theflyingorc fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 14:51
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Internet Webguy posted:https://twitter.com/Patztense/status/695429788652040194 What whiny little shits. "Wah Burns doesn't want us there so they deserve the (stable self governance) they had before we were there!"
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Feb 5, 2016 14:56
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Oh my god. I thought this poo poo was over. I didn't realize it was just emerging from its tarp cocoon and beginning the next terrible cycle of its life.
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Feb 5, 2016 15:00
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Prester Jane posted:Tarpman was part of leadership and was their spokesman. He was well liked, passionate, and charismatic. If he had been at the refuge when the Bundy's were taken in his actions demonstrate that he would have almost certainly tried to rally a defense and, considering the esteem he was held in, may well have succeeded. Off topic but next time you get a chance to change your name can I suggest Prester Cassandra.
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Feb 5, 2016 15:12
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Jonas Albrecht posted:Oh my god. I thought this poo poo was over. I didn't realize it was just emerging from its tarp cocoon and beginning the next terrible cycle of its life. Seems like it's in its death throes. Any update on the four still at the refuge?
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Feb 5, 2016 15:45
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Jonas Albrecht posted:Oh my god. I thought this poo poo was over. I didn't realize it was just emerging from its tarp cocoon and beginning the next terrible cycle of its life. It basically is. The FBI just doesn't want to kill the four idiots left, although I'm sure they're tempted to EVERY DAY I think there was just one protest? The 3%ers and PPN or whatever look like they're going to be backing down, they even publicly admitted on Twitter that the locals want them gone.
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Feb 5, 2016 15:49
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Kazak_Hstan posted:“I didn’t do anything at all. I mean, what are they going to do? Charge me for being in the kitchen? Are they going to bust me for cooking?” Actually, yes, since you were trespassing and aiding an armed standoff quote:“If they tried to do anything to me, I’m going to go the way LaVoy did,” Tough words from a guy that ran like a beaten dog with his tail between his legs when the FBI warned them that they were. 20 bucks he just pisses himself and gives up when the feds actually show up. Internet Webguy posted:Speaking of Judges, I found this particularly entertaining: There is not a LOL big enough for how hard I laughed. I hope their trial is televised because jesus gently caress it's going to be an epic poo poo show of these chuckle fucks trying to claim why the court is invalid. I wouldn't be surprised if a few refused a lawyer just because "I know better/the truth about US laws" SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Feb 5, 2016 |
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Feb 5, 2016 15:54
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https://twitter.com/Interior/status/695344144936361984
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Feb 5, 2016 16:11
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the face of tyranny
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Feb 5, 2016 16:12
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https://twitter.com/davidrshapiro/status/695427500835405824
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Feb 5, 2016 16:16
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Lavoy's funeral is today so expect some protests to occur. Some are going to gather up at the site where LaVoy was shot, where a makeshift shrine of sorts has been set up.
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Feb 5, 2016 16:19
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Skinty McEdger posted:Lavoy's funeral is today so expect some protests to occur. Well, at least we can guarantee it'll be well covered.
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Feb 5, 2016 16:23
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