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Yaws posted:Not only is Attack of the Clones the worst Star Wars movie, it's one of the worst movies ever made. It's the first time we get a look at Lucas' personal politics and it ain't pretty! Like what?
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Feb 6, 2016 19:41
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:I don't think fans are aware of which version they want. I doubt anyone here has seen A New Hope without the changes Lucas made after it's theatrical run. There's almost certainly things fans have no problem with. Where does Lucas draw the line? True, I grew up on the original VHS release and the THX remaster. Once the Special Edition came out that's all I ever saw until I got older and my interest in Star Wars went away. Only in the last few years did I gain a new appreciation for it as an adult. I did find some theatrical version online and found it interesting. This was a true theatrical version, with no Episode IV in the opening. As an adult I hated the changes my peers hated, such as the flashy CGI additions, the Greedo shooting first, Jabba the Hutt, and all that. What I didn't mind were the things I had forgotten, or didn't realize had changed. I didn't realize they had changed the aliens in the Cantina and that the originals were just surplus monster costumes found in a studio attic or something. The funniest thing that I didn't know about were the cardboard Rebel soldiers in the ending scene. I grew up with the full screen version and the ends of the frame were cut off. This must have been fixed for the THX remaster because they were real people. My conclusion was that some of the changes made were ok and maybe beneficial, while others were unnecessary and may have hurt the story. I stil prefer to have the theatrical version preserved even just as a historical document or a monument to all the hard work that went into making those films.
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Feb 6, 2016 19:45
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Yaws posted:Not only is Attack of the Clones the worst Star Wars movie, it's one of the worst movies ever made. It's the first time we get a look at Lucas' personal politics and it ain't pretty! I think you're mixing up Attack Of The Clones with THX 1138. THX 1138 was George Lucas' first feature film. It's a satire about a dystopian society.
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Feb 6, 2016 19:49
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Yaws posted:Not only is Attack of the Clones the worst Star Wars movie, it's one of the worst movies ever made. It's the first time we get a look at Lucas' personal politics and it ain't pretty! 
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Feb 6, 2016 19:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I think you're mixing up Attack Of The Clones with THX 1138. I'm aware of THX-1138. I own it on DVD. Incidentally, THX-1138 is another Lucas joint that he altered decades later and won't/can't release the original. In this case the Directors Cut is superior though. Seriously though, look at how improved this is:  Yaws fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 19:52
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So what do you imagine Lucas' 'personal politics' to be, and why do you imagine that all his other films - including Phantom Menace - are not representative of them. Use your words.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:01
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Yaws posted:Not only is Attack of the Clones the worst Star Wars movie, it's one of the worst movies ever made. It's the first time we get a look at Lucas' personal politics and it ain't pretty! What's so abhorrent about a 60 year old man screaming "gently caress BUSH" as loud as possible?
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Feb 6, 2016 20:12
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Anti-Citizen posted:What's so abhorrent about a 60 year old man screaming "gently caress BUSH" as loud as possible? I dunno, it always sorta bothered me how cynical the prequels are. The republic is a direct analogy to liberal democracies and it's portrayed as a corrupt bloated mess. Easily manipulated and brought to it's knees by an old bureaucrat.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:23
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I came out of TFA hating it. Since then, this hate has softened to an intense dislike for the movie, but it's till way worse than anything in the OT. I thought that the absolutely biggest issue of the movie was that of pacing. It felt as if there was a constant action and that there was no opportunity to let the scenes breathe a bit. The scenes jumped from action to action or had scenes that were full of plot exposition, very little time was spent on the characters just relaxing and talking to each other. When Kylo Ren taunts Rey's image of Han as the ideal father it feels rushed and unwarranted because we've only seen them know each other for a very short while, too short for them to actually have any deeper bond to each other, let alone one of Father/Daughter. The movie also feels to me as increadibly lazy. There's a shield around the starkiller base that the movie calls for our heroes bring down, how do they get past that shield? By lightspeeding through it of course! Han Solo just happens to be hanging around Jakku when Rey takes the falcon,. He doesn't take her to Leia immediatly, but instead takes her to Maz who just happens to have Anakins lightsaber. This also happens to have a great view of those planets that just happened to be the republics headquarters. Also lightspeed is now instant travel. Just a ton of neat coincidences. The whole third act with the Starkiller was just a mess. Did they really need to introduce a third Death star? Beyond that the blazè way the characters handled this superweapon was just terrible because it didn't feel like it was a threatening superweapon. In fact the whole echoing of ANH got on my nerves after a while. I assume that JJ wanted to get back to the "roots" of Star Wars, and this was his way of saying that this is Star Wars again, only with new cool heroes! But it ended up feeling uncreative and derivative. They played it too safe. It also really upsets me that they try so hard to pretend ROTJ didn't happen. The rebels won! The Empire was defeated! The gang all got their happy ending! Except it's 30 years later, everyone is an alcoholic and nothing they did really mattered in the end, because stormtroopers are still harassing innocent people and there are still massive superweapons wiping out billions of lives. gently caress you JJ. Also this might just be the EU stuff sneaking in but untrained people can't handle lightsabers! And Rey shouldn't be able to just mind trick people after 3 tries! Related to the prequels, I saw the "mace arresting sheev" scene on youtube and really, Anakin isn't upset that Mace is staging a coup, he's upset because he doesn't want Sheev to die before he tells Anakin of his cure for whatever poo poo he thinks Padme has. Hell, Mace outright says that he'll face justice at the hands of the senate before Sheevs blasts him with lightning, then he changes his mind when he realises how dangerous he really is.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:24
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Yaws posted:I dunno, it always sorta bothered me how cynical the prequels are. The republic is a direct analogy to liberal democracies and it's portrayed as a corrupt bloated mess. Easily manipulated and brought to it's knees by an old bureaucrat. What's wrong with the movie being an accurate portrayal of liberal democracy?
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Feb 6, 2016 20:24
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Yaws posted:I dunno, it always sorta bothered me how cynical the prequels are. The republic is a direct analogy to liberal democracies and it's portrayed as a corrupt bloated mess. Easily manipulated and brought to it's knees by an old bureaucrat. That part is true though?
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Feb 6, 2016 20:28
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cargohills posted:What's wrong with the movie being an accurate portrayal of liberal democracy? People fear the truth. And as the prequels taught us, fear leads to anger. People who hate the prequels actually fear them for what it makes them have to think about instead of what they want to think about (pew pew).
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Feb 6, 2016 20:36
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McCloud posted:I thought that the absolutely biggest issue of the movie was that of pacing. It felt as if there was a constant action and that there was no opportunity to let the scenes breathe a bit. I liked TFA but this was the hardest part to get used to for me. It's a typical JJ Abrams film in that the movie moves at such breakneck speed the film suffers for it. The rest of the Star Wars films are almost slow and ponderous by comparison. I was also confused by the plot. Ok, we have The New Order (remnants of the Empire) and The Republic. Got it. But where does the Resistance fit into all this? Are they separate from the Republic? Are they funded and armed by them? If so calling themselves the Resistance is bewildering. I mostly like it for little character moments, a great villain, and solid action sequences. It also successfully got me nostalgic about the OT. Watching Han Solo get killed was a very  moment for me.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:41
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I'm glad he's dead, finally  is free
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Feb 6, 2016 20:47
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:I liked TFA but this was the hardest part to get used to for me. It's a typical JJ Abrams film in that the movie moves at such breakneck speed the film suffers for it. The rest of the Star Wars films are almost slow and ponderous by comparison. I was also confused by the plot. Ok, we have The New Order (remnants of the Empire) and The Republic. Got it. But where does the Resistance fit into all this? Are they separate from the Republic? Are they funded and armed by them? If so calling themselves the Resistance is bewildering. I know right? It was all very confusing. Another thing that bothered me is that it laid out these neat little mysteries for other movies/books/videogames to explain. What's up with the new order and the resistance? Who're Rey's parents? What's with Maz finding that loving lightsaber? Who was that Max Won Sydow guy supposed to be? Why did R2--D2 start at the end? Why did Kylo go nutso? Why did Luke go away and what does the tomb of the first jedi or whatever have to loving do with anything? Some of these little mysteries I'm ok with (Rey's parents, Kylo betraying Luke), others just feel like they're there so they can sell whatever loving tie in merchandise they have planned. I did like the death scene though. It echoed Obi-Wans own sacrifice and the lesson it tought Luke/Rey. You can't fight hate with hate, only love can truly win over the Dark side. Then of course Leia totally ignores Hans best friend and goes to hug the loving girl she knew nothing about. What the gently caress do you have against Chewie, Leia?!
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Feb 6, 2016 20:47
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McCloud posted:Related to the prequels, I saw the "mace arresting sheev" scene on youtube and really, Anakin isn't upset that Mace is staging a coup, he's upset because he doesn't want Sheev to die before he tells Anakin of his cure for whatever poo poo he thinks Padme has. Hell, Mace outright says that he'll face justice at the hands of the senate before Sheevs blasts him with lightning, then he changes his mind when he realises how dangerous he really is. nope mace gives into anger, he never says sheeve is too physically powerful, only that he's to politically powerful. which was in direct contrast to what he said at the beginning ("i am the senate" "not yet you're not" -> "anikin we cant arrest him he owns the courts i gotta kill him") it's an excuse, he just really really wants to kill sheeve.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:48
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Elfgames posted:nope mace gives into anger, he never says sheeve is too physically powerful, only that he's to politically powerful. which was in direct contrast to what he said at the beginning ("i am the senate" "not yet you're not" -> "anikin we cant arrest him he owns the courts i gotta kill him") it's an excuse, he just really really wants to kill sheeve. Even assuming he does, it still seems Anakin is concerned out of selfish reasons (wanting to save Padme) than out of any concern about Mace betraying the principles of democracy or whatever.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:51
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McCloud posted:What's up with the new order and the resistance? Who're Rey's parents? What's with Maz finding that loving lightsaber? Who was that Max Won Sydow guy supposed to be? Why did R2--D2 start at the end? Why did Kylo go nutso? Why did Luke go away and what does the tomb of the first jedi or whatever have to loving do with anything? Some people dig those little mysteries. Doesn't matter if it's a plot hook to be explained later or it's left ambiguous. They can always fill in the blanks in their head. Personally, I would have liked the politics more concise and clarified. Everyone hated the Senate scenes in the prequels so they shied away from any discernible political angle. I'm ragging on a movie I liked a lot though. JJ Abrams movies are often dismissed as hollow and maybe that true but his hollow movies are very entertaining to me. Probably because I'm dumb. McCloud posted:Then of course Leia totally ignores Hans best friend and goes to hug the loving girl she knew nothing about. What the gently caress do you have against Chewie, Leia?! First she brings him to the ceremony and totally disses him in front of everyone by not giving him a medal and now this. She did hug him in the OT though. I forgot which movie. sponges fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 20:53
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McCloud posted:Even assuming he does, it still seems Anakin is concerned out of selfish reasons (wanting to save Padme) than out of any concern about Mace betraying the principles of democracy or whatever. he's still right even if he is flawed.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:54
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Outside of Luke blowing up the Death Star, when has the physical power of a single person been the deciding factor in a conflict in Star Wars? E: Palpatine was probably the most powerful in the series but he was also beaten by being chucked over a railing by a half-dead man with one hand when he appeared. His victory or defeat didn't much matter anyways, the whole space station he was on was going down as a result of the greater conflict regardless of that battle. TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 20:55
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Quote =/= Edit
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Feb 6, 2016 20:59
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The only thing the movie really needed was someone making it clear that The First Order & the Republic have an armistice. Other than that the movie makes it clear that the Republic is supporting The Resistance, who are basically freedom fighters in the DMZ between the 2 powers fighting against the first order. "Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE." "Today is the end of the Republic! The end of a regime that acquiesces to disorder! At this very moment, in a system far from here the New Republic LIES to the GALAXY while secretly supporting the treachery of the loathsome Resistance." "The weapon. It is ready. I believe the time has come to use it. We shall destroy the government that supports the Resistance, the Republic. Without their friends to protect them, the Resistance will be vulnerable, and we will stop them before they reach Skywalker." Without any mention of the armistice, we can surmise that The First Order & Resistance are both racing to find Luke for their various reasons, and obviously the Republic would not want to be seen fighting a military like the FO over some old jedi dude.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:59
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What planets get nuked by starkiller? My buddy is insisting that it wasn't coruscant, just some no-name places that never featured in anything. That's waaay lamer if true, I liked it more when I though they blew up the capital
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Feb 6, 2016 21:13
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The best part of TFA is when you realize that, without the rushed Starkiller Base subplot, there is no star war in the movie.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:14
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Black Bones posted:What planets get nuked by starkiller? My buddy is insisting that it wasn't coruscant, just some no-name places that never featured in anything. That's waaay lamer if true, I liked it more when I though they blew up the capital They say it's Hosnian Prime-- but also that that's the current capital of the Republic, not Coruscant.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:28
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Elfgames posted:he's still right even if he is flawed. I'd rather say the opposite. He was wrong and only interested in sparing his life for selfish reasons. Sheev was to dangerous to let live, and if Mace dropped his guard and Anakin had sided with Mace Shev would have tried to kill them both.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:42
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Empress Theonora posted:They say it's Hosnian Prime-- but also that that's the current capital of the Republic, not Coruscant. The capital of the Republic also rotates a bunch, so it's not like blowing up Constantinople.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:44
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Sir Kodiak posted:There is a significant difference between trying to watch our main characters through a crowd and having them completely obscured. And people accuse me of reaching. No, just because Obi-Wan refers to it as a "hive" doesn't mean there's an enforced minimum limit on how fast every single object has to move past the screen in the foreground. The ronto moves exactly as fast across the screen as the astromech does. The establishing shot of Mos Eisely doesn't actually establish any sort of discernible "whiteness" motif which the ronto violates by, uh, being brown.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:58
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McCloud posted:I'd rather say the opposite. He was wrong and only interested in sparing his life for selfish reasons. Sheev was to dangerous to let live, and if Mace dropped his guard and Anakin had sided with Mace Shev would have tried to kill them both. The trick is that Padme isn't 'just' Padme. Anakin fell in love with this 'Handmaiden Queen' who would do anything for her people. This is what is meant by 'keeping Padme alive'. This is the source of the homoerotic subtext in Episode 3, as Anakin's feelings for Padme are gradually displaced onto Palpatine. Recall Anakin's pathetic speech in Episode 2, where he imagines himself in terrible pain, unable to breathe, willing to do anything for his Queen. Just substitute 'Queen' with 'Emperor'. On the other hand, Mace is constantly associated with Anakin. Mace is the person Anakin wants to be, with all that power. So while Anakin is forced to choose between Palpatine's honest dictatorship or Windu's disavowed theocracy, but his actual choice is between saving Padme or saving himself. If Anakin were to kill Palpatine, he would be betraying the Republic (and Padme) just to secure a place on the Jedi council. Anakin, instead, sells his very soul to keep the Republic alive - even if it is only alive in a twisted form. This was exactly what Quigon taught him: ally with the biggest fish, and let him eliminate any 'disruptions' in the system. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 22:13
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computer parts posted:The capital of the Republic also rotates a bunch, so it's not like blowing up Constantinople. Well, yeah, but I was trying to stick to what we're given in the movie-- the backstory about the rotating capital is cool and I like it, but bringing in a bunch of tie-in material when trying to clarify what happened in TFA itself doesn't seem like a very good idea.
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Feb 6, 2016 22:15
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Anakin didn't have much time for abstract things like peace or democracy. He was loyal to people. He chose the wrong person to be loyal to.
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Feb 6, 2016 22:18
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:Ok, we have The New Order (remnants of the Empire) and The Republic. Got it. But where does the Resistance fit into all this? Are they separate from the Republic? Are they funded and armed by them? If so calling themselves the Resistance is bewildering. The Republic is North Vietnam and the Resistance are the Viet Cong. Cnut the Great posted:And people accuse me of reaching. No, just because Obi-Wan refers to it as a "hive" doesn't mean there's an enforced minimum limit on how fast every single object has to move past the screen in the foreground. The ronto moves exactly as fast across the screen as the astromech does. The establishing shot of Mos Eisely doesn't actually establish any sort of discernible "whiteness" motif which the ronto violates by, uh, being brown. Nowhere in my post do I reference the speed at which objects move or are supposed to move. Mos Eisley is a white grid in the second picture I posted, while the ronto, like the rocks, is mottled brown ridges. This is why I posted pictures. Even if none of the things that appear in the screengrabs I posted existed, what we're left with is that the screen is unappealing filled with an indistinct, blotchy brown shape for a while. The sequence was better when it wasn't. Previously there was more activity, each element of which was more interesting to look at, in which our ability to partially see the protagonists and their car better allows us to appreciate that all this activity is happening around them. It's a shame that your experience of being accused of "reaching" apparently made you eager to use it itself, rather than appreciate what a meaningless comment it is, an empty attempt to shut down the discussion.
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Feb 6, 2016 23:37
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:Anakin didn't have much time for abstract things like peace or democracy. He was loyal to people. He chose the wrong person to be loyal to. On the contrary, Episode 3 makes it very clear that Anakin's flaw is his desire to help everyone, even when they're giving him contradictory instructions. He actually does see the good intentions in everyone, like Obiwan teaches - and that's what leads to him getting torn apart when the Republic dissolves into petty infighting after the war. This was heavily foreshadowed in Episode 2: Anakin: We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem, agree what’s in the best interests of all the people, and then do it. Padme: That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don’t always agree. In fact, they hardly ever do. Anakin: Then they should be made to. Padme: By whom? Who’s going to make them? This scene is often misinterpreted as Anakin being a power-hungry dictator but, on the contrary, Anakin's unspoken answer is "you!" Anakin wants Padme to rule the galaxy, and dreams of having her boss him around. This is spelt out very clearly: Anakin: I'm doing it for you. To protect you. [...] Together, you and I can rule the galaxy - make things the way we want them to be! In other words, Padme is given everything she's always fantasized about - all the power of an Empress - and the term for a fantasy made brutally real is 'nightmare'. This is why Padme kills herself. It's her first and only ethical act. And Anakin is a nightmare to the Jedi in exactly the same way - he is Windu's fantasy of Jedi authority made nightmarishly real. Windu would sacrifice anything to preserve the Republic so, ok, there you go! Anakin is genuinely helping everyone to agree, because he's found the one thing everyone secretly loves: the fantasy of power. Unlimited power! That's the punchline to the whole saga. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 23:39
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McCloud posted:Even assuming he does, it still seems Anakin is concerned out of selfish reasons (wanting to save Padme) than out of any concern about Mace betraying the principles of democracy or whatever. It has to be reiterated that Episodes II and III gave us a pretty clear idea of Anakin's moral/social/political stances, and they just so happen to line up with everything Palpatine had been espousing in the first place.
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Feb 6, 2016 23:55
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The only thing that seems like a leap to me is that Anakin would side with Palpatine even after connecting the dots that he single-handedly orchestrated the clone wars. Anakin's a pretty strong believer in the Republic (in principle if not in how it works), so it seems like the fact that Palpatine's treachery has been the reason for this war that Anakin's been fighting for years would be enough for Anakin to turn on him forever. Unless you assume he's just planning to double-cross Palpatine the first chance he gets.
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Feb 7, 2016 00:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:On the contrary, Episode 3 makes it very clear that Anakin's flaw is his desire to help everyone, even when they're giving him contradictory instructions. He actually does see the good intentions in everyone, like Obiwan teaches - and that's what leads to him getting torn apart when the Republic dissolves into petty infighting after the war. So why does he chop up little kids then.
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Feb 7, 2016 00:06
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porfiria posted:So why does he chop up little kids then. This is your brain on Sith
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Feb 7, 2016 00:12
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porfiria posted:So why does he chop up little kids then. The same reason God had the Israelites wipe out evil peoples in the promised land. If you leave any alive, the will always come back to haunt you. Kill them all and let the Force sort em out.
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Feb 7, 2016 00:14
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porfiria posted:So why does he chop up little kids then. Because he would do anything to serve Padme - including destroying his own soul. When Anakin kills that first little kid, he is of course remembering himself when he was that age. He's symbolically killing the hated Jake Lloyd, expunging that part of his personality. Of course fans always wanted to see Jake Lloyd die. So, you get exactly what you fantasized about. No more "yippee!"
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Feb 7, 2016 00:16
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Quick question, SMG - how does Darth Vader offering to 'rule the galaxy as father and son' with Luke factor into this? Does he see Luke as a reflection of Padme [and conversely, would he see Leia as a reflection of himself]? It's a little weird to me, since Luke is supposed to be the abject in ROTJ, but he's not exactly sitting pretty in ESB when Vader makes his offer. At what point does Luke become the abject? And at what point does Darth Vader stop seeing him as Padme's son (aka democracy/the Republic/dank memes) and start seeing him as a human/inhuman being worthy of compassion?
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Feb 7, 2016 00:54
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