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suicidesteve posted:Necropotence. Yeah, the decks that use it are like.. Storm (maybe???), Living End (not really important to the deck) and Grishoalbrand (gtfo). Compared to those, using Simian Spirit Guide to cast a 2-drop on turn 1 is positively fair. The 2-drop isn't fair, though.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:35
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suicidesteve posted:Necropotence. Alright I'm calling you out on this: what the gently caress is good for Modern? What's the good direction the format should be moving in?
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Feb 6, 2016 20:35
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TheKingofSprings posted:Alright I'm calling you out on this: what the gently caress is good for Modern? What's the good direction the format should be moving in? Give me Counterspell or give me death.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:37
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I think Wizards should no joke take a good, long look at printing Force of Will into modern. As a bonus, it's a great troll of people who don't understand FoW's relationship with fair decks, as we see in this thread whenever the possibility gets raised and someone chimes in about how it's too powerful for Standard.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:39
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TheKingofSprings posted:Alright I'm calling you out on this: what the gently caress is good for Modern? What's the good direction the format should be moving in? IMO: Get rid of Eye of Ugin, Simian Spirit Guide and Lightning Bolt. Unban Dig Through Time and consider additional control-oriented unbans (one of Ponder/Preordain? maybe both). I feel as though Lightning Bolt's actually been too powerful for a really long time, but it's nestled itself into the same spot that Brainstorm occupies in Legacy. There's no card that comes close to matching Bolt's mixture of efficiency, power and versatility, but no one seriously looks at it as a ban candidate because it's so entrenched. Niton fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 20:40
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Apparently the UR Eldrazi deck has a 95% winrate, with 5 different players on it.JerryLee posted:I think Wizards should no joke take a good, long look at printing Force of Will into modern.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:43
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Niton posted:IMO: Get rid of Eye of Ugin, Simian Spirit Guide and Lightning Bolt. Unban Dig Through Time and consider additional control-oriented unbans (one of Ponder/Preordain? maybe both). I would support looking at a Bolt ban as well. I feel like things are more interesting when the burn spells have their own niches: Irony Be My Shield posted:Apparently the UR Eldrazi deck has a 95% winrate, with 5 different players on it. I mean, it's a perfectly legitimate line for a control deck to try to play, but if your opponent has any redundancy in their hand whatsoever, then making one of their removal spells into a Mind Rot isn't going to be upside for you. Also, there's the tension of playing enough blue cards to enable it, especially once we're out of gold card hell in Standard. I can't see the future, of course, so I can't say you're outright wrong, but I think it's just silly to be as afraid as some people are of Force of Will in Standard. The drawback is real. It might not feel real at the exact moment you lose a match to it, but I'd bet dollars to donuts you will win other matches because your opponent 2-for-1ed themselves, it's just not as obvious when it happens. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 20:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Apparently the UR Eldrazi deck has a 95% winrate, with 5 different players on it. In a slower format like the current one Force would be a big deal. In others where there are some really high impact early plays, it would be a speed bump.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:46
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JerryLee posted:I would support looking at a Bolt ban as well. I feel like things are more interesting when the burn spells have their own niches: Wild Slash and Flame Slash aren't making their way into Modern just because Bolt leaves. You just won't see 1 CMC burn that's not counting to 20 or named Galvanic anymore. E: and I'm very skeptical in the counting to 20 department.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:48
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TheKingofSprings posted:Wild Slash and Flame Slash aren't making their way into Modern just because Bolt leaves. I was talking more about "staple burn spells" and not just "1 CMC," though my examples did a poor job of making that clear since they were all 1 CMC (for practical purposes in the case of Rift Bolt). I forgot that Roast has displaced Flame Slash for many practical purposes, but that's just changing the name of the card that I'd use in my example.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:52
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Elyv posted:Well there was the SoI booster that got sold on ebay and posted to imgur if that counts i'm pretty sure that this is like, actually illegal. like that booster must have been stolen right?
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Feb 6, 2016 20:53
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C-Euro posted:Is there some joke here that's going completely over my head? heres a joke for the everygoon 
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Feb 6, 2016 20:54
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JerryLee posted:I mean, it's a perfectly legitimate line for a control deck to try to play, but if your opponent has any redundancy in their hand whatsoever, then making one of their removal spells into a Mind Rot isn't going to be upside for you.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:54
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TheKingofSprings posted:Alright I'm calling you out on this: what the gently caress is good for Modern? What's the good direction the format should be moving in? An actual playable control deck? Good counterspells? Not getting attacked by Griselbrand or Emrakul on turn 2? Not dying on turn 3 to a Blighted Agent? Real answer: Getting rid of the reserve list and getting rid of this garbage format along with it.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:55
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TheKingofSprings posted:Wild Slash and Flame Slash aren't making their way into Modern just because Bolt leaves. I don't think banning Bolt would kill Burn directly at all - it's probably the most powerful card in the deck, but there's reasonable replacements if all you really want to do is kill people as fast as possible. I do think it'd affect what creatures showed up, and Burn might not thrive as much in a metagame where the other decks run 4 fewer turn 1 kill spells.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:56
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Irony Be My Shield posted:What if they're playing a 4-5 mana spell, as most standard decks do? They end up so far behind on the board that I doubt the lost card matters much. Heck, you can cast Painful Truths with that tempo advantage and be up on both cards and mana. Maybe there would be pressure on opposing Standard decks to have a plan besides tapping out each turn for whatever the canonical Good Stuff is at that point on the curve  I'm being sarcastic, ofc, but you seem to be making a lot of very specific assumptions as to how these games/matchups must play out. Granted, I may be doing the same thing to some extent.
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Feb 6, 2016 20:59
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If it's not a good stuff deck then isn't FoW likely to be good on the grounds that it can take out their key cards?
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Feb 6, 2016 21:00
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mandatory lesbian posted:i'm pretty sure that this is like, actually illegal. like that booster must have been stolen right? yup
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Feb 6, 2016 21:01
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JerryLee posted:I think Wizards should no joke take a good, long look at printing Force of Will into modern. Force of Will is in a similar spot, where many people believe it is only good in degenerate formats where the card disadvantage is less important. That really isn't true. Putting a card like that in Standard, when you can tap out for a planeswalker, rest assured you have a free way to protect it, and then be able to untap and protect it further, is incredibly powerful. This is just not a card that we are willing to put into Standard, since it would require us warping the entire format around the card—something that I don't think is worthwhile for any one card. I wouldn't expect this to be in a Standard-legal set any time in the near future, barring wayward buses or a radical shift in the direction we want to move Standard toward. literally yesterday
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Feb 6, 2016 21:05
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lsv a win away from top 8
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Feb 6, 2016 21:06
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Rinkles posted:lsv a win away from top 8 coverage team panicking that they won't be able to find a replacement for top 8 commentary
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Feb 6, 2016 21:08
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JerryLee posted:I would support looking at a Bolt ban as well. I feel like things are more interesting when the burn spells have their own niches: I mean, Sam Stoddard put an article out literally yesterday about how they will never do that and how OP Force of Will would be even in Standard so its an exercise in futility to even debate it. I think the other thing people forget is that Force of Will is not in fact a dead card without a pitch card. I have certainly hardcast Force of Will in my time.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:11
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Did I miss it or did nobody post that Eldrazi decklist? The one with Drowner of Hope and Vile Aggregate..
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Feb 6, 2016 21:14
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If it's not a good stuff deck then isn't FoW likely to be good on the grounds that it can take out their key cards? Well, there's a wide gulf between "is playing a narrow deck with no individually good cards" and "is playing a deck that has no plan except to curve the best creatures at each CMC like some AI opponent." Angry Grimace posted:I mean, Sam Stoddard put an article out literally yesterday about how they will never do that and how OP Force of Will would be even in Standard so its an exercise in futility to even debate it. I don't read the mothership anymore, so mea culpa, I msised this. Point taken that this means we won't, as a matter of actual fact, be seeing FoW printed into Standard/Modern soon, but I was never really arguing that we would be. As far as whether this actually means that FoW in Standard would be good or bad, I hope you can forgive me for being highly skeptical of R&D's ninja-fu when it comes to sculpting fun Standards.  Rinkles posted:lsv a win away from top 8 This is good 
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Feb 6, 2016 21:15
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There was a deck tech. I can't find it yet but someone transcribed the main as 4 Eldrazi Mimic 3 Eldrazi Obligator 4 Thought-Knot Seer 4 Reality Smasher 4 Endless One 4 Eldrazi Skyspawner 4 Drowner of Hope 4 Vile Aggregate 2 Ruination Guide 3 Dismember 4 Eldrazi Temple 4 Eye of Ugin 3 Cavern of Souls 1 Gemstone Caverns 2 Island 2 Steam Vents 4 Scalding Tarn 4 Shivan Reef
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Feb 6, 2016 21:15
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Having been on the opposing side of Moat or Wrath with Force backup in the olden days, I can definitely vouch that it's only good in/against unfair decks is ridiculous.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:16
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JerryLee posted:Well, there's a wide gulf between "is playing a narrow deck with no individually good cards" and "is playing a deck that has no plan except to curve the best creatures at each CMC like some AI opponent." What he said: "Force of Will is in a similar spot, where many people believe it is only good in degenerate formats where the card disadvantage is less important. That really isn't true. Putting a card like that in Standard, when you can tap out for a planeswalker, rest assured you have a free way to protect it, and then be able to untap and protect it further, is incredibly powerful. This is just not a card that we are willing to put into Standard, since it would require us warping the entire format around the card—something that I don't think is worthwhile for any one card. I wouldn't expect this to be in a Standard-legal set any time in the near future, barring wayward buses or a radical shift in the direction we want to move Standard toward." The point of the article is explaining why they don't reprint [your favorite card]. The answer is that they try them all the time, but the reason you like [your favorite card] is because its busted to begin with. They went ahead and did it with Mutavault and Thoughtseize so people wouldn't whine that they don't reprint staple cards but everyone rightly complained that they were miserable. He also said he doubts Mystic is gone forever, its just to see if it opens better design space for green and that Lightning Strike isn't too powerful, its just that its a boring constructed card. Most of the cards people like were development mistakes to begin with. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 21:18
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Irony Be My Shield posted:There was a deck tech. I can't find it yet but someone transcribed the main as Going by fair prices, 50% of the cost of the deck is Scalding Tarns. That might not be true if it wins the Pro Tour, obviously. I can't wait for this deck to be everyone's favorite for a whole week before those same people are tired of it and call for bans on Eye and/or Temple.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:19
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drat, that Eldrazi deck moves fast.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:22
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The UR list does seem to be effective in the eldrazi mirror. Cards like Eldrazi Obligator and Drowner of Hope are very good at winning those races.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:22
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im pretty sure that force of will feels pretty bad to cast against jund a lot of the time.suicidesteve posted:An actual playable control deck? Good counterspells? Not getting attacked by Griselbrand or Emrakul on turn 2? Not dying on turn 3 to a Blighted Agent? maybe if some of the older cards cycled out sometimes, to freshen up the format every so often.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:25
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The UR list does seem to be effective in the eldrazi mirror. Cards like Eldrazi Obligator and Drowner of Hope are very good at winning those races. Also, chalice seems mostly dead against it.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:25
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Why don't we go full retard and finish the simian/elvish spirit guide cycle?
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Feb 6, 2016 21:26
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BDM: "Plinter Stwin"
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Feb 6, 2016 21:26
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I mean I'm not going all the way to the other extreme or anything and arguing that FoW is a stone dead card in fair matchups, merely that it isn't some sort of bogeyman that destroys the fair decks' hopes and dreams like a villain in a Kelly cartoon. Mind you, when it is the card that wrecks you, the feelbads will be extremely mentally available in future discussions about the card, so I can certainly understand why that's the reaction... but that's also the argument against e.g. nonbasic land hate and we see how well that's shaking out for Standard. I think FoW is similar (and likewise I think that similar arguments for not printing stronger nonbasic hate into Standard are flawed, for the same reasons). I'll drop it for now since I'm arguing in as much of a vacuum as anyone else when it comes to knowing exactly how the hypothetical Standard format(s) would evolve, though. kizudarake posted:Why don't we go full retard and finish the simian/elvish spirit guide cycle? Innistrad is the perfect opportunity to print Spirit Spirit Guide
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Feb 6, 2016 21:29
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Death Bot posted:heres a joke for the everygoon Nice! I would put a hitler stache on him though.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:32
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Bugsy posted:Nice! Jace did nothing wrong. 
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Feb 6, 2016 21:35
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The thing is, in Standard FoW actually has a mana cost; you can keep FoW up when you cast your big threat, but then when you untap you can hardcast it. You're not going to be forcing on turn 1 in Standard.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:37
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BDM bothering the players on the floor is so loving awkward
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Feb 6, 2016 21:41
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Ramos posted:Jace did nothing wrong. By the end of the PT we're going to end up with a full-on Fiestajace.
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Feb 6, 2016 21:42
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