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Lord Justice posted:In regards to Madoka's autonomy, I feel it's important to consider what she was using this autonomy for. She wanted to destroy herself, and Homura prevented her from doing so. Effectively, Rebellion uses the ethical quandary of, if you can prevent a person's suicide, but need to override their autonomy to do so, should you? It's less preventing someone's suicide and more propping up the body of someone who got run over by a car. The show happened because Homura couldn't accept Madoka's gone, and the movie also happened because she couldn't accept Madoka's gone, again. Perhaps the next movie too will be about Homura refusing to acknowledge that Madoka is going away. Also drat I forgot those silly as hell SHAFT head tilts.
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Feb 8, 2016 19:57
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a cartoon duck posted:Also drat I forgot those silly as hell SHAFT head tilts. 
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Feb 8, 2016 20:00
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a cartoon duck posted:It's less preventing someone's suicide and more propping up the body of someone who got run over by a car. The show happened because Homura couldn't accept Madoka's gone, and the movie also happened because she couldn't accept Madoka's gone, again. Perhaps the next movie too will be about Homura refusing to acknowledge that Madoka is going away. I feel you'd have more of a point if Madoka wasn't, you know, completely fine in Homura's Labyrinth:  She's not even a lich anymore.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:01
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Wasn't there also that bit at the end of Rebellion where Madoka was all wait something's not right here and her eyes briefly turned gold again and Homura's all AW gently caress REBOOT REBOOT? You got the entire movie separated into gif-sized chunks I am sure you have a gif for that too.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:05
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Sakurazuka posted:She completely rewrote the universe and everyone in it to accommodate her little fantasy of Madoka not going 'yo, what the gently caress do you think you're doing?' in response to her ripping Madoka the person out of Madoka the god. But how does this really hurt anyone but Madoka? I mean, her actions with respect to Madoka were definitely evil, but many people do evil things without being "A DEVIL IN OPPOSITION TO GOD." I mean, I guess I understand the point that because she did something that directly affected God that she's sorta a demon or something, but it seems like her actions don't really have any negative impact on anyone else. Isn't the Law of Cycles still technically in place in Homura's new universe? Like, if she completely undid the Law of Cycles I could buy the "DEMON" thing, since that would basically entail completely undoing everything Madokami did. But it seems like magical girls still don't become witches in Homura's new universe. Lord Justice posted:In regards to Madoka's autonomy, I feel it's important to consider what she was using this autonomy for. She wanted to destroy herself, and Homura prevented her from doing so. Effectively, Rebellion uses the ethical quandary of, if you can prevent a person's suicide, but need to override their autonomy to do so, should you? I feel like many people tend to heavily overestimate how much true autonomy individuals have, and I feel like it is usually not a good idea to allow people to commit suicide*. There's no such thing as someone's True Will/Self; someone who truly wants to commit suicide at one point may very well not wish to several years later and be grateful that they were prevented from doing so. In Madoka's situation, however, she made her sacrifice under the assumption that it was necessary in order to achieve some outcome that was definitely for the Greater Good. So I'm not sure how much it really goes against her wishes if she is "unsacrificed" while still maintaining the benefits of her sacrifice. *with the exception of situations where you can reasonably expect that the person's reasons for committing suicide will never improve, like with a terminal illness or something Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 20:19
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The whole "separating Madoka from her divine aspects" thing is another one of those plot points where we just know gently caress all. As far as we know, the worst thing is that Homura is effectively keeping Madoka prisoner - one has to wonder what she'd do if Madoka actually rejects Homura in some way. Wraiths are still fought, and I'm pretty sure her little line about maybe destroying the world was bullshit. We just don't know anything beyond that. Does it disturb the Law of the Cycle in any way? Is there no more Magical Girl Valhalla? Did something in the universe break? Like, is there any downside about this except being a pretty hosed up thing to do to your friends? Nobody knows!
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Feb 8, 2016 20:21
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so like is there ever going to be another animated madoka thing? and if so, of what? I dunno how popular the various mangas are and if an adaptation of them would be clamored for or so. like I'm just wondering what on earth they might actually do with the franchise in the future
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Feb 8, 2016 20:25
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a cartoon duck posted:Wasn't there also that bit at the end of Rebellion where Madoka was all wait something's not right here and her eyes briefly turned gold again and Homura's all AW gently caress REBOOT REBOOT?  Yes she did, and Homura stopped her from destroying herself. Again, it's the ethical quandary, do you stop a person from killing themselves if it means removing their autonomy? Homura obviously believes so, and because this quandary exists, it's hard to define Homura's actions as "good" or "evil", because it's far more complicated than that. Personally, I'm of the opinion that what Homura did was correct due to my interpretation of the end of the series. To adapt from Fate/Zero again: "A Goddess would willingly die for her ideals." "That is not how a person should live." "If I am to exist as the Law of Cycles, I cannot hope to live as a person." "Madoka. you said you would die for your ideals. In life, you must have been a pure and honest saint. A noble and inviolable figure, certainly. But who on Earth admires the martyr's thorny path? Who dreams of such a life?" ... Madoka: "...Even so, I will save all Magical Girls. If I don't, then I will have nothing to offer you as recompense." Homura: "Even after all of this, you would still give up your life and become a Goddess for such a reason? How helpless you are..." Gyra_Solune posted:so like Yes, there's a new Madoka project in the works. I've written a number of analyses on the Concept Movie, which is a short film serving as the basis for the next project shown at Madogatari. You can read my analyses if you want to see what the Concept Movie suggests about the new project.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:29
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They're gonna make a movie, there was some weird-rear end trailer with Madoka as a ballerina and giant asteroids in the shape of Mami's head.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:29
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a cartoon duck posted:They're gonna make a movie, there was some weird-rear end trailer with Madoka as a ballerina and giant asteroids in the shape of Mami's head. it's everything i ever wanted is such a trailer on ye youtubes?
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Feb 8, 2016 20:38
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How destroyed is she anyway when she can just incarnate on earth and also bring a couple dead people with her as well. Even if we accept the whole suicide-prevention angle, which I don't, what Homura's doing is less tackling a problem and more just indefinitely sedating Madoka and also the entire universe so Homura can continue not dealing with anything. She's doing gently caress-all to address the problem and everything to prevent Madoka acting in a way Homura doesn't approve of.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:39
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Gyra_Solune posted:it's everything i ever wanted The only thing that exists is a terrible phone recording. I'd recommend waiting a bit, as we may be getting a clean version of it in a few days hopefully. a cartoon duck posted:How destroyed is she anyway when she can just incarnate on earth and also bring a couple dead people with her as well. I'm assuming you're referring to Rebellion Which was A, a Labyrinth inside Homura's soul (I.E. not actual reality) and B, designed specially to draw Madoka into it. She can't incarnate on the earth normally. As for Homura not addressing the problem, I'm not sure how correct this is. She doesn't address it at the end of Rebellion, no, but that doesn't mean it won't be addressed at some future point. This is probably what the next project is about, even. If Homura doesn't address it there, then I feel the criticism will be deserved. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 20:40
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oh okay then this was a super recent announcement then
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Feb 8, 2016 20:43
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Since you keep bringing up Zero, have you read FSN, Justice?
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Feb 8, 2016 20:45
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Motto posted:Since you keep bringing up Zero, have you read FSN, Justice? I tried and gave up. Wasn't to my taste. I watched Unlimited Blade Works and hated it. To be honest, I prefer the parallels Fate/Zero has to Madoka, since they're both written by Urobuchi and have similar themes.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:47
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Lord Justice posted:I'm assuming you're referring to Rebellion Which was A, a Labyrinth inside Homura's soul (I.E. not actual reality) and B, designed specially to draw Madoka into it. She can't incarnate on the earth normally. As for Homura not addressing the problem, I'm not sure how correct this is. She doesn't address it at the end of Rebellion, no, but that doesn't mean it won't be addressed at some future point. This is probably what the next project is about, even. If Homura doesn't address it there, then I feel the criticism will be deserved. I'd wager with you the only problems being addressed in the future movie will be Homura's. Hell, a movie that's basically about taking Madoka down a notch for whatever perceived reason would be lame and boring whereas Homura's hosed up psyche still gives more fodder for works even after the show and movie. Also the conversation kinda moved on since then but I am still curious what you meant by religious zealotry. a cartoon duck fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 20:55
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loving madoka sacrificing herself for the greatest good what a bitch
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Feb 8, 2016 21:01
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Ultimately duck is right, the state of affairs at the end of rebellion is that homura has made huge personal sacrifices in order to avoid dealing with madokas death. Ultimately she knows that she can't sustain the new universe forever, one day she'll destroy everything because that's what she's become. All she's got is a reprieve, removing someone's autonomy in order to keep them alive. You used a suicide parallel, let me throw one at you. Is it ethically right to keep someone alive as a vegetable indefinitely on life support? Namtab fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 21:06
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a cartoon duck posted:I'd wager with you the only problems being addressed in the future movie will be Homura's. Hell, a movie that's basically about taking Madoka down a notch for whatever perceived reason would be lame and boring whereas Homura's hosed up psyche still gives more fodder for works even after the show and movie. I feel both of these themes can and might be addressed in the new project. I suppose we'll have to see. When I say religious zealotry, I'm referring to Mami just before Homura's betrayal:  Kyouko: "Are they gone now? Sayaka, and your Bebe too?" Mami: "No. They're finally taking her away with them." Kyouko: "Is that Kaname Madoka?" Mami: "Yes. The Law of Cycle, which will one day lead us away too." Effectively, The Law of Cycles has created a religion of sorts around existing as a Magical Girl and dying for that cause. It basically operates on the same sort of principles as radical Islam, killing yourself for some perceived greater good and afterlife. It's what I was talking about in relation to the "Definition of Happiness" within the Concept Movie, as Homura's definition rejects that. Namtab posted:Ultimately duck is right, the state of affairs at the end of rebellion is that homura has made huge personal sacrifices in order to avoid dealing with madokas death. Ultimately she knows that she can't sustain the new universe forever, one day she'll destroy everything because that's what she's become. All she's got is a reprieve, removing someone's autonomy in order to keep them alive. This question is irrelevant, as Madoka is clearly not a vegetable. Does she look like she's in a hospital on life support to you?: There's this strange conception that Madoka living a normal life is an unethical action on Homura's part for creating it. Why? The conditions for creating it have some ethical issues, yes, but the end result isn't unethical. Madoka is just a normal girl again and can grow up properly without destroying herself at age 14, what's wrong with that exactly?
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Feb 8, 2016 21:22
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Feb 8, 2016 21:24
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i am starting to get the impression Lord Justice has more Madoka Magica in his body than water or oxygen! it is actually somewhat impressive
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Feb 8, 2016 21:27
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Lord Justice posted:
She's also never dead, so the suicide analogy is equally irrelevant
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Feb 8, 2016 21:33
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Lord Justice posted:Effectively, The Law of Cycles has created a religion of sorts around existing as a Magical Girl and dying for that cause. It basically operates on the same sort of principles as radical Islam, killing yourself for some perceived greater good and afterlife. 
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Feb 8, 2016 21:34
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Lord Justice posted:This question is irrelevant, as Madoka is clearly not a vegetable. Does she look like she's in a hospital on life support to you?: How is it silly what-if scenarios are only valid when they are your silly what-if scenarios? If we're now going all WELL ACTUALLY on them, then you can't compare it to suicide either. The thing about suicide is that you're dead and gone, not ascending to some higher existence where you are everywhere simultaneously forever, just not in convenient tearful hugging range. People that commit suicide in my experience never come back when I am feeling particularly sadbrained allowing me to trap them in a fake reality either.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:35
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Namtab posted:She's also never dead, so the suicide analogy is equally irrelevant She destroyed herself at the end of the series in terms of existing, it's pretty close to being dead for all intents and purposes. The only real difference is that she made it so it didn't negatively affect anyone but Homura.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:36
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Lord Justice posted:Yes she did, and Homura stopped her from destroying herself. Again, it's the ethical quandary, do you stop a person from killing themselves if it means removing their autonomy? Homura repeatedly stopping her from doing that stikes me more as her refusing to allow Madoka to stray from her idea of what Madoka should be - a weak, ineffectual schoolgirl. Sidenote: someone post that comic where Madoka repeatedly tries to become Godoka, and Homura has to continuously follow her around forcing her back to normal.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:36
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Madoka did gently caress-all to make everyone forget but specifically single-out Homura. As Kyubei explained her wish was so grand it basically rewrote the universe, and when the whole "everyone forgets you" thing comes up and Homura cries about it Madoka's all well i don't know you got this far, maybe you'll remember me. It's weird to read some intent of just making Homura remember into that.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:39
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a cartoon duck posted:How is it silly what-if scenarios are only valid when they are your silly what-if scenarios? If we're now going all WELL ACTUALLY on them, then you can't compare it to suicide either. The thing about suicide is that you're dead and gone, not ascending to some higher existence where you are everywhere simultaneously forever, just not in convenient tearful hugging range. People that commit suicide in my experience never come back when I am feeling particularly sadbrained allowing me to trap them in a fake reality either. Madoka was dead and gone for all intents and purposes in her new world. It was only through a fantastical series of circumstances that she was allowed to come back and in a state for Homura to capture her.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:39
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Yeah she was so dead and gone the incubators were able to lay out a clever trap to capture her, a thing people regularly do with the dead and gone.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:42
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a cartoon duck posted:Yeah she was so dead and gone the incubators were able to lay out a clever trap to capture her, a thing people regularly do with the dead and gone. So? Your argument essentially boils down to, since Madoka is an artistic work with fantastical elements, it can't comment on things like martyrdom and suicide because those can be undone within the narrative. Madoka destroyed her existence as a normal girl within the world with her wish, this is fact. Madoka the normal girl no longer exists and is essentially dead as she no longer exists in the world. Just because she was able to be brought back later doesn't change this.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:47
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Blaziken386 posted:Homura repeatedly stopping her from doing that stikes me more as her refusing to allow Madoka to stray from her idea of what Madoka should be - a weak, ineffectual schoolgirl. Actually this is the hilarious thing, and also what made Madoka's wish necessary in the first place. If it hadn't been for Homura's repeated meddling, Madoka never would have become fodder to become a world-ending witch, and there never would have been need for her "defeat all witches" wish. If it hadn't been for that wish Madoka would have ended up destroying the world a countless number of times, until Homura would just quit rewinding out of despair or just get killed by Madoka's witch before she could. Everything is Homura's fault.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:47
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Namtab posted:loving madoka sacrificing herself for the greatest good what a bitch
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Feb 8, 2016 21:47
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a cartoon duck posted:Actually this is the hilarious thing, and also what made Madoka's wish necessary in the first place. If it hadn't been for Homura's repeated meddling, Madoka never would have become fodder to become a world-ending witch, and there never would have been need for her "defeat all witches" wish. If it hadn't been for that wish Madoka would have ended up destroying the world a countless number of times, until Homura would just quit rewinding out of despair or just get killed by Madoka's witch before she could. Everything is Homura's fault. Homura would have given up in Loop 3 if Madoka hadn't requested salvation.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:48
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a cartoon duck posted:How is it silly what-if scenarios are only valid when they are your silly what-if scenarios? If we're now going all WELL ACTUALLY on them, then you can't compare it to suicide either. The thing about suicide is that you're dead and gone, not ascending to some higher existence where you are everywhere simultaneously forever, just not in convenient tearful hugging range. People that commit suicide in my experience never come back when I am feeling particularly sadbrained allowing me to trap them in a fake reality either. Yeah this is why I find the suicide comparison to be very off base Well, that and Unless the person in question is a legitimate monster, you could never say "The world is objectively better off due to their actions" in response to someone committing suicide. And meanwhile that's the objective truth for Madoka. The world isn't perfect after her sacrifice, but she made a terrible system a bit less awful.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:53
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PerrineClostermann posted:Someone post the comics with Homuraku getting tomato'd by her clara dolls please. http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/homura_chan_tomato  Blaziken386 posted:Sidenote: someone post that comic where Madoka repeatedly tries to become Godoka, and Homura has to continuously follow her around forcing her back to normal. same artist http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/devil_vs_goddess 
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Feb 8, 2016 21:53
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Lord Justice posted:So? Your argument essentially boils down to, since Madoka is an artistic work with fantastical elements, it can't comment on things like martyrdom and suicide because those can be undone within the narrative. Madoka destroyed her existence as a normal girl within the world with her wish, this is fact. Madoka the normal girl no longer exists and is essentially dead as she no longer exists in the world. Just because she was able to be brought back later doesn't change this. It can and does comment on those things, it's just that I absolutely cannot agree with your idea on what those comments are. There's a world of difference in presentation between suicidal flashback Homura or the rooftop-jumping lady and Madoka when making her final wish. It's only ever presented as not the best possible thing in that it makes Homura sad, not because Madoka has to die or whatever. Of course if you ask me it's not what the show as about in the first place, but is the story of someone coming to terms with a loved one's death. That's why I always see Madoka's death/ascension/moving out of Homura's tearful hugging range as a foregone conclusion, and why I don't give any fucks about a story that's about taking Madoka down a notch and I'm more interested in stories about Homura learning to let go and move on.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:54
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Or I guess stories about Homura falling in increasingly deeper and darker holes, it's what made Rebellion a good and interesting movie.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:57
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Also come the gently caress on again, how is it valid for you to take things to their "logical extremes" and what not and I'm the idiot for saying you take that poo poo too literally, but when I say that something doesn't work like that given the basic goddamn facts in the show I'm the idiot for taking this poo poo too literally.
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Feb 8, 2016 21:59
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I can't believe madoka didn't think about homuras feels, instead of literally every other magic girls ever
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Feb 8, 2016 21:59
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a cartoon duck posted:Also come the gently caress on again, how is it valid for you to take things to their "logical extremes" and what not and I'm the idiot for saying you take that poo poo too literally, but when I say that something doesn't like that given the basic goddamn facts in the show I'm the idiot for taking this poo poo too literally. Write longer posts
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Feb 8, 2016 22:00
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