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Bongo Bill posted:The Force Awakens has many problems that the prequels lacked, and lacks many problems that the prequels had. I was confident before release, and feel that events following its release have justified my belief, that the particular problems of The Force Awakens are more palatable to general audiences. Yeah this is a pretty great way to put it all around
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Feb 8, 2016 21:54
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porfiria posted:I don't know how to explain it any further than to say you're making enormous leaps here--I'm not sure how similar you think crack babies and Google Search are, or how similar the former would be to a hypothetical robot sex worker, but let me suggest that a lot the assumptions that go into declaring crack babies to be a bad thing don't hold true in the other cases. And again, I'll be clear that I'm not declaring robot slavery definitely ethical, only suggesting that it might be. You on the other hand seem to have an understanding of where the self comes from that you'd like to share (with the cognitive neuroscience community)? Quigon: Are you brainless? Jar Jar: I speak. Quiqon: The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here. The term for this is a p-zombie. "It is a standard philosophical observation that we should distinguish between knowing a phenomenon and acknowledging it, accepting it, treating it as existing - we do not 'really know' if other people around us have minds, or are just robots programmed to act blindly. This observation, however, misses the point: if I were to 'really know' the mind of my interlocutor, intersubjectivity proper would disappear; he would lose his subjective status and turn—for me—into a transparent machine. In other words, not-being-knowable to others is a crucial feature of subjectivity, of what we mean when we impute to our interlocutors a 'mind': you 'truly have a mind' only insofar as this is opaque to me. Perhaps we should nonetheless rehabilitate the good old Hegelian-Marxist topic of the thoroughly intersubjective character of my innermost subjective experience. What makes the zombie hypothesis wrong is that, if all other people are zombies (more precisely: if I perceive them as zombies), I cannot perceive myself as having full phenomenal consciousness either." -Zizek
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Feb 8, 2016 21:59
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Terrorist Fistbump posted:When you explain others' positions, you are making your own argument about that position, intentional or not. I believe it is possible to understand a position without supporting it.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:04
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Waffles Inc. posted:Is it so impossible for you to imagine a star war fan not immediately thinking TFA is the best one (or better than the prequels)? It is possible, in fact I consider ESB better than TFA. I am inclined to not find the dislike genuine explicitly because a significant number of arguments in the films favor have been dismissed nonchalantly without retort or in a manner hypocritical of their own treatment of their chosen favorite. Cnut, while a good poster, often finds himself arguing against TFA due to its treatment of his favorite characters (despite the fact that, were he not against the film, he would be writing excellent posts comparing TFA's treatment of Han to ESB's original intention for Han vs. RotJ's disuse of Han). It is not controversial to state that the majority of posters in this thread find themselves in favor of or against the prequels. Progressing from this statement, I do not find it obscene to imply that the pro-PT camp may be less inclined to praise a film tgat has already been praised by the anti- camp as "returning to good [not PT] Star Wars". Hence the contrived argument that the simple generational shift of the film is "too confusing due to the lack of political scenes, due to foolishly avoiding the PT's legacy". It is possible to bring a poor argument with malice or with indifference. It is still a poor argument.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:15
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How are droids not people in Star Wars? Can someone explain this point of view?
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Feb 8, 2016 22:19
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bruvs be4 luvs
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Dubplate Fire posted:How are droids not people in Star Wars? Can someone explain this point of view? Mouse droids are not people. Should protocol droids simply never be created? Or astromechs? Or should they just simply make stupider ones so no one cares? Jerkface fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 22:22
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Jerkface posted:Mouse droids are not people. Existent or not, they should not be enslaved.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:29
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Well the prequel battledroids were just a bunch of drones connected to a giant hivemind spaceship thing and they just fall over useless without it, so the spaceship could probably be considered a person, but the individual droids were not. The TV show indicates that later battledroids were individuals, but this is never mentioned in the movies so as far as the movies are concerned the droids continue to be controlled by ships, with the ships still being present in the opener to ROTS. e: I think the OT and TFA make a pretty strong case for non-battledroids like C3PO and R2D2 being people. C3PO is very proud of his programming/knowledge and likes to flaunt it which you could confuse with him being programmed to do language stuff, but by ROTJ/TFA he has graduated to helping the rebels/Resistance make tactical decisions and participating in their efforts more actively. R2D2 has always done whatever it wants. e2: "Princesses!" (had it up to here with your poo poo Leia) turtlecrunch fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 22:31
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turtlecrunch posted:Well the prequel battledroids were just a bunch of drones connected to a giant hivemind spaceship thing and they just fall over useless without it, so the spaceship could probably be considered a person, but the individual droids were not. TPM clearly shows battle droids as having distinct personalities, even if they are also linked together.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:36
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Maybe the ship controlling them just has a sense of humor.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:37
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turtlecrunch posted:Maybe the ship controlling them just has a sense of humor. Or maybe it's the trade federations way of putting "bombs" inside them.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:40
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turtlecrunch posted:Well the prequel battledroids were just a bunch of drones connected to a giant hivemind spaceship thing and they just fall over useless without it, so the spaceship could probably be considered a person, but the individual droids were not. The way I've always read the droid control ship scheme is that the physical droids are hardware that intelligent AIs housed on the ship are manipulating telepathically. They have similar intelligence to the protagonist droids, except their minds are separated from their bodies.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:45
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None of the battle droids ever stand out as 'characters'. They all have (lovely slapstick) personalities, but they're the same personality.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:46
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SHISHKABOB posted:Or maybe it's the trade federations way of putting "bombs" inside them. Yeah, there's no way to know if their processing is being performed remotely or if they're merely built to deactivate if a heartbeat signal from the control ship is lost. turtlecrunch posted:Well the prequel battledroids were just a bunch of drones connected to a giant hivemind spaceship thing and they just fall over useless without it, so the spaceship could probably be considered a person, but the individual droids were not. Even if their minds are remotely processed they might not be a hivemind.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:48
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Steve2911 posted:None of the battle droids ever stand out as 'characters'. They all have (lovely slapstick) personalities, but they're the same personality. So they're clones.
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Feb 8, 2016 22:52
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droids are people, a lot of them are slaves, it seems the perception of droids have postively progress from return to TFA though with how people treat bb-8, probably has to do with something about r2d2 being a hero this isn't that hard to figure out
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Feb 8, 2016 23:00
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Jerkface posted:Mouse droids are not people. I dunno, it's just a question worth thinking about.
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Feb 8, 2016 23:12
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if you don't think droids are people you are just simply bad at watching movies. like its that simple. you suck, at watching movies. it isn't that hard of thing to comprehend and get.
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Feb 8, 2016 23:17
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the droid argument is somehow worse than all the prequel arguments jesus christ
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Feb 8, 2016 23:17
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PBS Newshour posted:if you don't think droids are people you are just simply bad at watching movies. mouse droids are animals. R2D2s and C3P0s are people.
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Feb 8, 2016 23:30
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Steve2911 posted:None of the battle droids ever stand out as 'characters'. They all have (lovely slapstick) personalities, but they're the same personality. Yeah, they're at best the control ship's dream or the control ship playing with its dollies. This also makes for a convenient resemblance to a military structure for their organic leaders to comfortably work with.
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Feb 8, 2016 23:37
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Steve2911 posted:None of the battle droids ever stand out as 'characters'. They all have (lovely slapstick) personalities, but they're the same personality. "I hate this job."
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Feb 8, 2016 23:48
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turtlecrunch posted:Well the prequel battledroids were just a bunch of drones connected to a giant hivemind spaceship thing and they just fall over useless without it, so the spaceship could probably be considered a person, but the individual droids were not. Pretty sure after TPM they stopped using the hivemind or the cloud based computing.
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Feb 9, 2016 00:04
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Also the droid in that kids cartoon is a dickhead.
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Feb 9, 2016 00:04
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Dubplate Fire posted:Pretty sure after TPM they stopped using the hivemind or the cloud based computing. This is correct. In the first or second season of Clone Wars they say specifically how after the way Phantom Menace's battle ended and how easy to divert/etc. the droids all the ones made since are individuals. Though interestingly all those older models were reprogrammed to be individuals too. They're cosmetically identical but apparently they take longer to learn stuff and can't lead effectively. There's a funny bit in one episode where some of them fall for some simple trap Obi-Wan or someone sets up to kill them all and one of the newer model droids walking by jokes about how they were old news and not free thinkers like them, after which all of them laugh the same laugh in unison.  PBS Newshour posted:the droid argument is somehow worse than all the prequel arguments jesus christ This I agree with 100%. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 00:07
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MonsieurChoc posted:"I hate this job." Pretty sure this line is from the tv show.
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Feb 9, 2016 00:09
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C3PO very pointedly shows the most emotion throughout all the movies.
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Feb 9, 2016 00:19
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Thinking about it a bit I feel like TFA missed a step by not giving C3PO a red right hand.
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Feb 9, 2016 00:22
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RBA Starblade posted:Thinking about it a bit I feel like TFA missed a step by not giving C3PO a red right hand. ...star....w...warss....roCKET PEACE!
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Feb 9, 2016 01:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You are not talking about a search engine. You are imagining an entity with all the qualities of a human being, but that you can treat as a search engine. A fantasy of a creature that speaks, but is still brainless - as Quigon imagines Jar Jar to be. Well, the typical hypothetical p-zombie doesn't behave like a person while remaining unconscious, it's physically identical (down to the neural level) to a person and still unconscious. One might (mostly) reasonably extend the intuition that other people aren't zombies to Gungans as well as C-3PO type robots, and it seems unlikely in general that p-zombies are a thing that can actually exist (although I don't know that it's entirely a settled issue). But anyway that's all beyond the bounds of the discussion, since I don't think what's at issue is consciousness per se (dogs are not p-zombies and they're our slaves). Would you object to surgically transforming dogs into beautiful women and having sex with them (if they still had dog brains)?
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Feb 9, 2016 01:29
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porfiria posted:Would you object to surgically transforming dogs into beautiful women and having sex with them (if they still had dog brains)? Can a Mod make this the new thread title?
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Feb 9, 2016 01:31
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Schwarzwald posted:Can a Mod make this the new thread title? It sounds crazy now but Edit: Also I realize in the interest of gender/sexual neutrality it should be "beautiful men and women." porfiria fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 01:31
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Dubplate Fire posted:How are droids not people in Star Wars? Can someone explain this point of view? If I made a robot with sentience I would never ever program the ability for that robot to exert free will. As in, it would be legitimately impossible for that droid to ever even conceive of freedom or what to do with it. To do otherwise is opening up a giant can of worms for robot rebellion. I would allow for independent thought along any other line. (Note I don't even want to get into the loving can of worms that is whether you should make this robot to begin with) Absent knowledge of how droids in Star Wars work, a droid that I programmed in the way that I described above could literally do everything that R2 and C3P0 would ever do, but would never ever want to be free. That is to say it is impossible for them to even understand the concept, let alone desire it. Given this, a person, informed by knowledge of robotics could watch Star Wars and just assume that droids had this programming. When you have no desire to be free, not even an ability to conceive of what freedom is (which even the most indoctrinated people can have) and no motivation to do so, how are you equivalent to a person?
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Feb 9, 2016 01:44
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Yorkshire Tea posted:If I made a robot with sentience I would never ever program the ability for that robot to exert free will. As in, it would be legitimately impossible for that droid to ever even conceive of freedom or what to do with it. To do otherwise is opening up a giant can of worms for robot rebellion. I would allow for independent thought along any other line. (Note I don't even want to get into the loving can of worms that is whether you should make this robot to begin with) Jesus loving Christ
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Feb 9, 2016 01:47
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If I ever had a child, I'd make sure to lobotimise it at birth because I wouldn't want them getting lippy p.s. I don't wanna open a whole can of worms about whether I should lobotimise babies, okay guys?
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Feb 9, 2016 01:48
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Yorkshire Tea posted:If I made a robot with sentience I would never ever program the ability for that robot to exert free will. As in, it would be legitimately impossible for that droid to ever even conceive of freedom or what to do with it. To do otherwise is opening up a giant can of worms for robot rebellion. I would allow for independent thought along any other line. (Note I don't even want to get into the loving can of worms that is whether you should make this robot to begin with) its funny because reading this post i get the feeling you are a robot
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Feb 9, 2016 01:50
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A Steampunk Gent posted:Jesus loving Christ Eh, I think it's a valid argument, but I suspect the premises are unreasonable.
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Feb 9, 2016 01:50
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I would suspect that guy is a robot because he types like a robot
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Feb 9, 2016 01:52
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Beep boop, If Stars, Then Wars, Beep boop
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Feb 9, 2016 01:52
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Yorkshire Tea posted:If I made a robot with sentience I would never ever program the ability for that robot to exert free will. As in, it would be legitimately impossible for that droid to ever even conceive of freedom or what to do with it. To do otherwise is opening up a giant can of worms for robot rebellion. I would allow for independent thought along any other line. (Note I don't even want to get into the loving can of worms that is whether you should make this robot to begin with)
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Feb 9, 2016 01:55
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