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Robiben posted:Well I agree. But Chloe is dead. Max is the one that has to live with it. ALSO its a fantastical story in some way so Chloe is probably chilling in heaven or some poo poo. Isn't the butterfly meant to be her spirit? The spirit animal stuff is like 90% red herring. The butterfly represents change/time, the deer is whoever is supposed to be protecting Chloe so Rachel until she dies, William in the alt timeline, then Max. That's why Chloe tells Max not to forget she's the only one who is going to remember. So Chloe does die thinking everyone hates her.
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Feb 4, 2016 11:01
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LoseHound posted:You're reducing a story to a lecture. Funny, I was going to accuse you of the same thing! I think the thing about metaphors is that if you examine any of them closely enough, they will always break down into nonsense. Metaphors inherently aren't true - after all, if they were they would just be 'description'. Part of being an active and intelligent audience is recognising these metaphors and reading them for what they are, rather than testing them to destruction in the hopes of capturing their full superficial reality (like Jefferson and his pursuit of innocence). What if the game explained in concrete terms the tornado's origins? exquisite tea earlier in the thread had the right of it - Chloe, the storm and the butterfly are a connected triad, all standing for a disruptive force come to destroy Max's corrupt, static home town, triggered by Max's transition to adulthood. If we now 'explain the tornado' - it's a Satanic ritual by the Prescotts, as has been suggested - doesn't that change the meaning of the metaphor? The storm is an extension of the town's corruption, as is Chloe, the Prescott-hating rebel who despises Arcadia Bay...? The butterfly is the Anti-Christ...? The Prescotts want everyone to grow up and make decisions...? Max's final decision is to let the Prescotts win by destroying the town, or... let the Prescotts win by keeping the town? Or, presumably, to follow some Golden Path ending where the tornado is 'dispelled' and the Prescotts truly defeated - in which case Max never learns to engage with and accept reality, because she can just keep rewinding and hiding from consequences until she gets the 'right' ending. It'd be like being able to rewind with Kate in Episode 2 - have you actually made a connection with Kate if you just trial-and-error it until she steps down? Maybe it wouldn't work out like that, of course. But I think it illustrates how trying to nail these superficialities down "because that's what I'm here for" ends up misreading the work. You don't read a book solely by looking at the specific shapes of the letters and words, but by understanding the definitions of the words and constructing a story from them. The more you stare at the shapes and sizes of the letters, the harder it is to understand what they mean. In the same way, the closer you examine the mechanics of the metaphors contained in those same words, the less sense they will make as a whole. At the end of the day only you can be responsible for how you understand a work. The only person who can make you focus on superficialities over truth is you. That's what I believe, anyway. Quest For Glory II posted:To build on that, the episode previews weren't like "here's Max gaming the social system and making things worse", they're, "Max and Chloe are sneaking around at the gym trying to solve a mystery, but they get caught???" "Mr Jefferson is going to kill Max???" like the driving forces of the majority of the game from a narrative and presentation standpoint are the danger and the mysteries. It's not like Square Enix mis-marketed it, this is their own direction. That first episode is the pitch of a supernatural mystery. For me, that's not up for debate. That they decided to go in a different direction is fine but they want to say that they planned it this way all along and I say, hmm maybe do it differently next time then. They planned Mr Jefferson to be the killer all along? Really?? To be clear, I'm not arguing that the surface elements don't exist, that there isn't a murder mystery or supernatural elements or a train tracks rescue. They're just not important. Max doesn't learn to take action and accept consequences so she can solve the Rachel Amber Mystery, she solves Rachel's murder so she can learn to take action and accept consequences. The game itself tells you all this, if only by simple fact that the murder mystery is solved at the end of Episode 4 when there's still 3 hours to go. You can go with this, or you can double down on a misreading that by your own admission doesn't work. I'd run with the first, myself. And yes, they planned it all along. One of Jefferson's first lines is "Seriously though, I could frame any one of you in a dark corner, and capture you in a moment of desperation. And any one of you could do that to me. Isn't that too easy? Too obvious?" In fact, the "Too obvious" was a script note from the writers that the VA accidentally read aloud, so they kept it in. Working as intended! XboxPants posted:I still am not a fan personally of the ending, but I can see your points, even agree that it could be interpreted as a good story with a good ending. But not a good game. The idea is that you shouldn't try to avoid consequences to your actions and the rewind power is a crutch, but that's not generally reinforced in the gameplay. Instead, you're constantly rewarded for rewinding and avoiding negative consequences. That doesn't match up with the themes you bring up. The ludonarrative dissonance (sorry) is massive. As stated, rescuing Kate involves just knowing things about her and doing nice things for her. There's a direct parallel in Chloe's memory game in the diner: you can only win Chloe's game by watching then rewinding time, and your reward is a nosebleed; you can't rewind with Kate at all, you learn the things you need to know by paying attention in the past, and your reward is saving a life. The arc I describe is a parabola. At first, the powers are helpful, because they let Max overcome her fear of making irreversible decisions. Later, they become a hindrance, because if Max only ever makes reversible decisions and keeps changing them, is she making decisions at all? The pivot point is Episode 3, where Max rewinds time intending to save a life (like she did quite happily in Episodes 1 and 2), only to find she has only traded lives instead: William for Chloe, Chloe for William. The gameplay fully mirrors this in Episode 5, when both game and reality fall apart - we hop from setpiece to setpiece with no exploring and the adventure game becomes a Metal-Gear-Solid maze game. By this point, the rewind is more hindrance than help, and Max's reliance on it is what increasingly makes her situation worse. If it was immediately obvious that using the powers was bad, it would be a short arc and a short game. We could rightly call "ludonarrative dissonance" for the way Max and the player must continue to use the rewind even though we know how terrible it really is. Max's journey about learning how to engage with the world becomes a rather hum-drum "get me out of this time travel story!!" in which the stakes are a) escapes time travel b) does not escape time travel. Arguably this really would be a game about how you should never do anything - if you try to save a girl's life in a bathroom, you'll just end up with awful time powers that you gotta get rid of (by stopping a storm or whatever), so don't bother. No, I think the better path is for the rewind to superficially (there's that word again) appear awesome and helpful, only for the game to reveal the truth that it's ultimately unhelpful, and what Max really needs to do is just engage with reality. How apropos! Phew. Sorry for the long post, but I'm glad of the discussion. I really like this game!
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Feb 4, 2016 13:03
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Thuryl posted:No. What you're missing is that because the groups who chose each ending are uneven in size to begin with, they'll contribute an uneven amount when they go back and play the other ending. Suppose 700 people initially chose ending A and 300 initially chose ending B: a 70-30 split. Now, suppose 50% of each of those groups go back and play the other ending: that would add 350 new players to ending B's count (50% of the 700 people who initially played ending A) and 150 to ending A's count (50% of the 300 people who initially played ending B). Now you've got 850 playthroughs with ending A and 650 with ending B, which is about a 57-43 split. Unless people who initially got one ending are more likely to replay and get the other than people who initially got the other ending are, the effect of people replaying is to bring the percentages closer to 50-50. Hey thanks for clarifying. I had a slight inkling I was wrong. Would the numbers be as close to 50/50 mas they are though? Like there is a 2 percent difference on pc! Wouldn't the gap be wider? I'd still like a bit more info on it, I'm sure Dontnod have more data on the subject and would be able to clarify if the numbers were accurate or if do overs swung the numbers. I still feel that it is actually even but its a hunch and not based on facts. Nameless Pete posted:"Chloe and Rachel are loving together in heaven right now. Is that what you wanna hear?" This is a line from the game isn't it? Creepy. SirKibbles posted:The spirit animal stuff is like 90% red herring. The butterfly represents change/time, the deer is whoever is supposed to be protecting Chloe so Rachel until she dies, William in the alt timeline, then Max. That's why Chloe tells Max not to forget she's the only one who is going to remember. Yeah makes the ending a a lot more bittersweet. I still think the mysticism makes it a bit more "ok" if that makes sense but its still sad. Poor Max and Poor Chloe! POOR EVERYONE! At least Max still has those memories of Chloe. I think in a game about magical tornadoes and time travel there is room for a bit of hope. Lt. Danger posted:I really like this game! These posts are really good. Makes me feel like a knuckle dragging Neanderthal yelling "GAME IZ GUD" in comparison.
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Feb 4, 2016 13:38
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I think the ending's massive critical failure is Warren. The moment he goes "nah babe here's how it is" as the most self-assured wise guru sage from exposition mountain with absolutely no doubts that he, just a regular sci-fi geek who can't even get good grades without Max's help, could possibly be wrong is the exact moment you lose faith in the game's storytelling. It makes the line later from Chloe where she points out that there's not really a coherent reason for this less of a cute line and more of the devs just laughing in your face for even hoping for a more satisfying explanation.
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Feb 4, 2016 13:39
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Robiben posted:There is some mixed feelings about the ending out there but personally that part really worked for me. The Diner scene was a bit ham-fisted but the Chloe section beforehand grabbed the heart strings and pulled with all its might. I thought it was a great way to give a nice recap before the choice. Also it was trippy which I liked. I cracked up at the Chloe Memorial. I thought they were really spelling it out that she was doomed and it felt really silly. I enjoyed it for what it was, a cute reminder of fun times I had with the game but all the stuff beforehand left me really tired out, so it did nothing for me in the long run. Robiben posted:
It's not that I think Kate's suicide or Alternate Chloe had been poorly handled or was unnecessary, it's that the game suddenly became for me the super weepy garbage I heard other people calling it. And yeah, it can still be cheap if it has a place in the story. People were dreading that the game was going to use these elements for shock value and not handle them well, but I was still totally invested and hoping for the best until episode 5. It wasn't just that the diner scene was hamfisted, it was the so much leading up to it was super in-your-face and either felt like the game winking hard at the fanbase or screaming at you to feel something. The Jefferson dialogue had me out of the story from the word go, especially after the "I gave you hints!!!" bit. The nightmare maze had confusing cameos and silly dialogue was a little dull. Robiben posted:
I am a big idiot, so even while I understand why this was a part of the story, I was glad for it to be over. I thought it was a really standard turn for the story to take and while I enjoyed its place in Max's arc and some of the moments it brought about, the actual twist was pretty unsurprising and I was happy when it ended. like how i felt about the actual ending!!!! Lt. Danger posted:I think the thing about metaphors is that if you examine any of them closely enough, they will always break down into nonsense. Metaphors inherently aren't true - after all, if they were they would just be 'description'. Part of being an active and intelligent audience is recognising these metaphors and reading them for what they are, rather than testing them to destruction in the hopes of capturing their full superficial reality. Which is what my ramble about suspension of disbelief was getting at. Sort of. It's not that there are story gaps, it's that the game doesn't leave me willing to not nitpick. I was ready for the story to just be over because I thought what had come before was just silly and unsatisfying. I wasn't left thinking about how maybe I should join a book club, I was left with "I wonder why this story feels empty" and then went squinting my eyes at the plot developments to see what didn't work for me. Enjoying a story's superficial elements isn't a crime, and expecting them to be decently handled isn't all that usual. The game just dropped the superficial elements I found interesting to get...weird and it left me out in the cold. For example, in Episode 4 Max forgets about one of the most basic uses for her powers in order to give us a dialogue puzzle with Frank. I was willing to overlook this, because a. I thought the section was fun, and b. because I thought the list of names wasn't the main point of the scene, but rather Frank's opinion of the girls. This turns out to be totally irrelevant, so now the thing I was willing to overlook becomes a minor nitpick. I am now less willing to suspend my disbelief and I am a little bit more out of the story. Jeabus Mahogany posted:I think the ending's massive critical failure is Warren. The moment he goes "nah babe here's how it is" as the most self-assured wise guru sage from exposition mountain with absolutely no doubts that he, just a regular sci-fi geek who can't even get good grades without Max's help, could possibly be wrong is the exact moment you lose faith in the game's storytelling. It makes the line later from Chloe where she points out that there's not really a coherent reason for this less of a cute line and more of the devs just laughing in your face for even hoping for a more satisfying explanation. Episode 5 has moments that feel specifically addressed to the player and it feels clumsy as heck. Jefferson's dark room line from episode 1 was a genuinely clever bit of foreshadowing. I have no doubt Jefferson was planned to be the bad guy, but him rubbing your nose in that line is cartoonish and there is no way I can believe someone thought it was a good idea without thinking "aha! now they HAVE to believe it was planned this way!!" Guru Warren explaining to you how time travel plots go was just another scene I sat through, waiting for it to be over. Edit: I'm also enjoying this discussion, and was wondering where you read the bit about the script notes? It sounds interesting. LoseHound fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 14:31
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I don't disagree that this was what the devs were going for or that themes are there, I just think the ending is badly executed. It feels awkward and forced instead of natural.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:20
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Jeabus Mahogany posted:I think the ending's massive critical failure is Warren. The moment he goes "nah babe here's how it is" as the most self-assured wise guru sage from exposition mountain with absolutely no doubts that he, just a regular sci-fi geek who can't even get good grades without Max's help, could possibly be wrong is the exact moment you lose faith in the game's storytelling. It makes the line later from Chloe where she points out that there's not really a coherent reason for this less of a cute line and more of the devs just laughing in your face for even hoping for a more satisfying explanation. It really is the worst moment in the game, but to be honest that entire section was absolutely miserable. Lt. Danger, I'd really like to see you talk about the "return to town during tornado section and find the picture and also do this other stuff" and try to explain at least something positive from it thematically, because that was totally the point where the game completely lost me and I don't see a way to think well of it. If anything, it seems to actively work to undermine the things you've discussed, which I believe game is truly about, by focusing entirely on the things you've said are irrelevant. It was, in my mind, the absolute worst part of the ending, and the final choice with Chloe by the light house seemed much weaker for directly referencing and reminding me how bad it was. Like, what purpose was that whole section supposed to serve? Which themes was it supposed to emphasize and reinforce, and how? From the moment I "saved" the first idiot I came across who had no goddamn reason to be there, I was nonstop being forced to ask questions about the game I really shouldn't be asking at that point and it was just... ugh. The warren bullshit was bad, but it was only the capstone to a section that seemed to actively undermine the points you're saying the final episode was trying to get across, even more than some of the stupider dream parts were.
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Feb 4, 2016 19:20
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LoseHound posted:Which is what my ramble about suspension of disbelief was getting at. Sort of. It's not that there are story gaps, it's that the game doesn't leave me willing to not nitpick. I was ready for the story to just be over because I thought what had come before was just silly and unsatisfying. I wasn't left thinking about how maybe I should join a book club, I was left with "I wonder why this story feels empty" and then went squinting my eyes at the plot developments to see what didn't work for me. Enjoying a story's superficial elements isn't a crime, and expecting them to be decently handled isn't all that usual. The game just dropped the superficial elements I found interesting to get...weird and it left me out in the cold. Fair enough, but at that point I think you just gotta call it quits. The game's doing one thing, you want another, ain't nobody's fault. I don't think the game ever outright drops threads, but some threads do have a thematic/symbolic explanation rather than a literal, diegetic one. quote:For example, in Episode 4 Max forgets about one of the most basic uses for her powers in order to give us a dialogue puzzle with Frank. I was willing to overlook this, because a. I thought the section was fun, and b. because I thought the list of names wasn't the main point of the scene, but rather Frank's opinion of the girls. This turns out to be totally irrelevant, so now the thing I was willing to overlook becomes a minor nitpick. I am now less willing to suspend my disbelief and I am a little bit more out of the story. Assuming I'm reading you right, this seems in character for Max at this point in the story. Frank's opinion of the girls is important, even if it has nothing to do with solving the mystery. Part of what makes Max's rewind so manipulative and self-destructive is that it denies other people their agency - Frank, Taylor, Victoria etc. aren't allowed to have bad opinions of Max because she'll just rewind and rewrite history. The game is aware of this as well, I think, because apparently Frank freaks out if you mention his dog's name, since he hadn't actually told you it from his perspective. I think you can probably connect this to what Max says about her choice to save/un-save Chloe's dad and how she can't tell ever Chloe about it... and also to what happens in Episode 5, when she does tell Chloe about it, and later also tells her about how she might have to let Chloe die to save the town. In both cases, Chloe is gratified to know the truth and have her own opinion exist, unrewound. quote:Edit: I'm also enjoying this discussion, and was wondering where you read the bit about the script notes? It sounds interesting. Mark Jefferson's entry on the wiki mentions it under "Trivia". Probably from the director's commentary? GlyphGryph posted:It really is the worst moment in the game, but to be honest that entire section was absolutely miserable. Lt. Danger, I'd really like to see you talk about the "return to town during tornado section and find the picture and also do this other stuff" and try to explain at least something positive from it thematically, because that was totally the point where the game completely lost me and I don't see a way to think well of it. If anything, it seems to actively work to undermine the things you've discussed, which I believe game is truly about, by focusing entirely on the things you've said are irrelevant. It was, in my mind, the absolute worst part of the ending, and the final choice with Chloe by the light house seemed much weaker for directly referencing and reminding me how bad it was. It is kinda weak, that's a fair assessment. In terms of plausibility, I can believe people would be stupid enough to get caught out in the storm. People are dumb in a crisis - how else do stampedes and human crushes happen? It's not inconceivable that a bunch of small-town Pacific Northwesterners would underestimate a tornado. I mean, I'm not an expert, but doesn't the danger zone actually extend way past the visible dust funnel? Besides which, a tornado that threatens to destroy the town and everyone in it isn't very threatening if everyone's snug and secure in their storm shelters. Thematically, I think it's supposed to be a sort of 'victory lap' - Max's last chance to do good with her powers before giving them up. Most of the interventions don't involve time travel per se, just Max being in the right place at the right time. I do agree the pacing is way off and there's a weird tension between a free-exploration puzzle zone with what's supposed to be a mad final dash to our last hope for saving Chloe. I think a more linear corridor, in which Max zips from person to person, saving them then moving straight on like the town's guardian angel, would work better. And no fire sprinkler/exploding RV puzzle either. I think that'd make the diner scene sit better - a final oasis, a breather space before moving into the climax. I quite like the idea of Warren basically explaining the dilemma between Chloe and Arcadia Bay. It lends a nice cosmic irony to the end of Episode 1, when Max was about to tell Warren about her powers only to be distracted by Chloe. Warren could probably have filled Max in on chaos theory, fractal timelines and the butterfly effect right at the start of the story, but didn't - and his failure to do so was itself a consequence of saving Chloe in the bathroom. I think it would sit better if there had been some stronger associations made between Chloe, the storm and chaos theory in previous episodes. The game's curiously coy about this: Chloe off-handedly name-drops chaos theory in Episode 2; Episode 3 is called "Chaos Theory" and explores the concept in the ending; Alyssa and Brooke(?) can reference The Sound of Thunder, Back to the Future and others; there's obvious intertext with Donnie Darko and The Butterfly Effect. Maybe the game should have just acknowledged it and played up the dramatic irony more? "I know chaos theory, you know chaos theory, but Max and Chloe don't, so let's see what happens?" Then again, perhaps not... I'm not keen on rewriting stories post hoc as a whole. Also maybe Max shouldn't lead off with the conclusion straight away, though it does show us at least that Max has enough self-awareness (not self-absorption) to realise how her powers might be affecting the world around her. That said, I didn't really mind that sequence as a whole.
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Feb 4, 2016 22:42
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I thought the relationship between Chloe and the storm was more or less obvious from the very first episode where she says "I wanna drop a big loving bomb on this town" and then Max zipflashes back to stormy lighthouse.
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Feb 4, 2016 22:45
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I agree, and I think it should be obvious anyway if you know the butterfly thought experiment, what with the Chloe-butterfly motif and all. But I think another dose might have helped, especially since the storm takes a backseat to other subplots in Episode 3 and 4. Also I really appreciate your posts itt as well, they were good.
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Feb 4, 2016 23:08
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It's definitely a game that has stayed with me. I still think a lot about all the little intertwining themes and striking visuals when I'm out running and it's a nice mental diversion. I also probably sing "To All of You" at least once every single day of my life.
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Feb 5, 2016 02:10
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exquisite tea posted:It's definitely a game that has stayed with me. I still think a lot about all the little intertwining themes and striking visuals when I'm out running and it's a nice mental diversion. I also probably sing "To All of You" at least once every single day of my life. I'm hype for a spiritual successor game edit: I just don't think you can do a sequel given what the themes of the game are in response to say time travel.
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Feb 5, 2016 05:48
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Lt. Danger posted:Fair enough, but at that point I think you just gotta call it quits. The game's doing one thing, you want another, ain't nobody's fault. I don't think the game ever outright drops threads, but some threads do have a thematic/symbolic explanation rather than a literal, diegetic one. It's not just that the things I enjoyed were sidelined, it's that they were sidelined for something I felt was weakly put together. The Frank scene I mentioned is one of my favorite scenes, yet I bring it up because the characters ignore the obvious solution (get page, rewind) for something more convoluted for no mentioned in-story reason. I am willing to ignore this and buy into the scene, because I think the development it gives Frank and the puzzle itself were interesting. The ending of the game just doesn't do enough right for me to buy it. Also, I tracked down the "Too Obvious" bit, and the wiki cited a Cracked article. I think the writer was making a joke and the wiki editor took it at face value. LiS is a beautiful game and it does wonderful things. The lighting in the opening class room scene, walking through the stopped rain or into Chloe's empty room, hearing Chloe call David her step-dad. The game has plenty of moments that gave me something to feel or think about and I will always be grateful for that.
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Feb 5, 2016 06:05
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Robiben posted:Uh pretty much yes? If you are saving Chloe you are killing the rest of the town. The co-director mentioned that's why they don't show anything further with the characters there because they are gone and Max and Chloe are moving on. This a a page back, but I find this thought process strange. When you make the "correct" final choice, what do people expect to happen to the timeline with the storm? From what I can tell, either the timeline keeps going and the town is destroyed or the timeline ends and the town, if not the universe, is destroyed. The last choice isn't about sacrificing the town, because that town is getting destroyed no matter what. It's a choice of timeline preference, just like all the other freeze frame binary choices.
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Feb 5, 2016 09:35
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Dinosaur Satan posted:This a a page back, but I find this thought process strange. When you make the "correct" final choice, what do people expect to happen to the timeline with the storm? From what I can tell, either the timeline keeps going and the town is destroyed or the timeline ends and the town, if not the universe, is destroyed. The last choice isn't about sacrificing the town, because that town is getting destroyed no matter what. It's a choice of timeline preference, just like all the other freeze frame binary choices. The game never explains how timelines works. Chapter 5 is a nightmare of Max it's not actually another timeline (as far as we and Max know.)If they do a sequel maybe they'll go into it
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Feb 5, 2016 10:28
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I really hope I'm not creating persistent splinter timelines, based on nothing but the number of times I poured Frank's soda in his lap for the hell of it. Or the prospect of having to explain to William and Joyce why I killed their daughter. Given the amount of trial and error I had to use in the David vs. Jefferson fight, I'd say the vast majority of timelines end up with both Max and Chloe dead.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:00
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Lt. Danger posted:And yes, they planned it all along. One of Jefferson's first lines is "Seriously though, I could frame any one of you in a dark corner, and capture you in a moment of desperation. And any one of you could do that to me. Isn't that too easy? Too obvious?" In fact, the "Too obvious" was a script note from the writers that the VA accidentally read aloud, so they kept it in. Working as intended! This is hilarious and great.
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Feb 5, 2016 21:14
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Nameless Pete posted:I really hope I'm not creating persistent splinter timelines, based on nothing but the number of times I poured Frank's soda in his lap for the hell of it. Or the prospect of having to explain to William and Joyce why I killed their daughter. Given the amount of trial and error I had to use in the David vs. Jefferson fight, I'd say the vast majority of timelines end up with both Max and Chloe dead. Chloe and Max both being dead is the natural state of the universe, and you get time travel powers specifically because a dead Max went back in time with her ghost powers and possessed her younger self (giving her visions of her death near the lighthoust)
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Feb 5, 2016 21:18
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Help! I'm on a replay and I thought picking the option that tells Chloe to get rid of the gun would work just a *little* time traveling later and she's gone and got an assault rifle instead!  Now she's requesting hand grenades 
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Feb 6, 2016 22:26
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Jesus, you didn't watch Chloe die enough times already?
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Feb 7, 2016 01:01
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Pimpmust posted:Help! Now you have to play by save scumming to keep her alive.
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Feb 7, 2016 02:01
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I got something in the mail today! The book is really nice, I didn't realize it was hardcover.
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Feb 7, 2016 02:24
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Someone has used the new This War of Mine modding tools to make "War Is Strange" but from what I can tell so far it just has new characters which you could do before the modding tools even came out so 
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Feb 7, 2016 02:54
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RightClickSaveAs posted:I got something in the mail today! Its well decorated and all, but I'm pretty annoyed that the 2 neatest pieces of concept art are split between 2 pages with the spine in the way. The soundtrack is hella good tho
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Feb 7, 2016 07:28
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Pimpmust posted:Help! My Chloe ended up on the wrong coast somehow. 
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Feb 7, 2016 08:08
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I really want that soundtrack, but I couldn't shell out the money for a special edition of the game. Has anyone heard if they're gonna release it through itunes or Steam or Amazon or... something yet?
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Feb 7, 2016 08:55
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LoseHound posted:I cracked up at the Chloe Memorial. I thought they were really spelling it out that she was doomed and it felt really silly. I enjoyed it for what it was, a cute reminder of fun times I had with the game but all the stuff beforehand left me really tired out, so it did nothing for me in the long run. I think this is really just a difference in opinions. I enjoyed that the game became weepy garbage because I was really liking the characters stories. If I hadn't been so invested it wouldn't have been weepy! And I enjoyed the payoff to it all. Not trying to dismiss your argument, its just differing tastes! exquisite tea posted:It's definitely a game that has stayed with me. I still think a lot about all the little intertwining themes and striking visuals when I'm out running and it's a nice mental diversion. I also probably sing "To All of You" at least once every single day of my life. Yeah this game totally stuck with me as well. My take away song is Obstacles. Lt. Danger posted:And yes, they planned it all along. One of Jefferson's first lines is "Seriously though, I could frame any one of you in a dark corner, and capture you in a moment of desperation. And any one of you could do that to me. Isn't that too easy? Too obvious?" In fact, the "Too obvious" was a script note from the writers that the VA accidentally read aloud, so they kept it in. Working as intended! I didn't know this. Thats pretty rad! Dinosaur Satan posted:This a a page back, but I find this thought process strange. When you make the "correct" final choice, what do people expect to happen to the timeline with the storm? From what I can tell, either the timeline keeps going and the town is destroyed or the timeline ends and the town, if not the universe, is destroyed. The last choice isn't about sacrificing the town, because that town is getting destroyed no matter what. It's a choice of timeline preference, just like all the other freeze frame binary choices. As SirKibbles said they don't really explain it. I guess its a problem for time travel fiction in general though? I mean is there a timeline in Back To The Future where Biff wins and all hope is lost for Marty? I hope they don't explain it though. You only really see one perspective though so I hope they don't waste time on weird time travel explanations. Pimpmust posted:Help! Really wanna relive that ending huh? Xinlum posted:Its well decorated and all, but I'm pretty annoyed that the 2 neatest pieces of concept art are split between 2 pages with the spine in the way. The soundtrack is hella good tho The Art Book while nice is a bit useless as the concept artists have put up hi-rez image on the net for all to see. Spoilers in links obviously: https://edouardcaplain.artstation.com/ https://gary.artstation.com/ http://www.florent-auguy.com/LIFE-IS-STRANGE Robiben fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Feb 8, 2016 |
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Feb 8, 2016 04:33
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BobTheJanitor posted:People who are emotionally distant and afraid to reach out and connect with other humans? And the lesson was 'don't break out of your shell, it will only lead to more pain'? This game is pretty mean, wow. How could you possibly come to this conclusion? Max is only able to make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of Chloe precisely because of the emotional connections the time travel allowed her to make.
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Feb 8, 2016 20:05
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Radbot posted:How could you possibly come to this conclusion? Max is only able to make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of Chloe precisely because of the emotional connections the time travel allowed her to make. It's not like this is subtext. The sacrifice Chloe ending is literally "everything would be fine if you didn't gently caress everything up by trying to help someone." Well, for everyone but the dead girl.
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Feb 9, 2016 05:04
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Radbot posted:How could you possibly come to this conclusion? Max is only able to make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of Chloe precisely because of the emotional connections the time travel allowed her to make. Sitting back and doing nothing was Max's usual thing, and nobody thought she gave a poo poo about them. She would have done nothing originally had time powers not been thrust upon her. Now she has to go back and do nothing because she does care about everyone and she accidentally did something. The sacrifice was never a dilemma until the time powers happened. It's amusingly ironic, but not exactly empowering. Max fucks up the town by trying to save some random girl's life. Max saves William and paralyzes Chloe. Max investigates Rachel Amber's disappearance, only for the exact same outcome to occur by doing nothing. It's probably not what they want me to focus on and yeah, road to hell good intentions etc. etc. but the supernatural element to it all makes interpretation weird. There's a lot of mention of corruption and decay in Arcadia Bay and man vs. nature stuff, and Max's powers are associated with nature and yet...not much comes of it? I guess you can read the endings as "max was given doom powers to wreck the entire town so nature could reclaim it" or "max was given a big rear end test to see if Arcadia Bay was worth sparing the wrath of nature", but that feels a little silly. Was Max even intentionally given powers? It's like the game wants both a reason for the time powers that tie into a larger mythic narrative and no reason for the time powers because they're a metaphor for the quaint unpredictability of life or whatever. It colors your interpretation. Robiben posted:I think this is really just a difference in opinions. I enjoyed that the game became weepy garbage because I was really liking the characters stories. If I hadn't been so invested it wouldn't have been weepy! And I enjoyed the payoff to it all. If you like the ending, more power to you. I was invested in the character stories as well, because I liked stuff like Chloe's ending dialogue and Max talking to David and Frank. But so much else of the episode felt like a circus. What's with all the weird poo poo Nathan's dad says and the bits about Prescotts and bomb shelters? Who cares! Strap into the nightmare chair and watch teens make out! LoseHound fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 05:31
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LoseHound posted:If you like the ending, more power to you. I was invested in the character stories as well, because I liked stuff like Chloe's ending dialogue and Max talking to David and Frank. But so much else of the episode felt like a circus. What's with all the weird poo poo Nathan's dad says and the bits about Prescotts and bomb shelters? Who cares! Strap into the nightmare chair and watch teens make out! You did catch that some of the weird poo poo that purportedly comes from Nathan's dad is actually written by Jefferson, right? There's at least one email that says it's from Nathan's dad that you find on Nathan's computer that you also find on the computer in the basement that Jefferson uses.
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Feb 9, 2016 08:20
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Robiben posted:I didn't know this. Thats pretty rad! Sadly I think LoseHound is right and it's a joke-turned-factoid. However, the point remains that Jefferson reveals himself in one of his first lines of dialogue. LoseHound posted:Sitting back and doing nothing was Max's usual thing, and nobody thought she gave a poo poo about them. She would have done nothing originally had time powers not been thrust upon her. Now she has to go back and do nothing because she does care about everyone and she accidentally did something. The sacrifice was never a dilemma until the time powers happened. It's amusingly ironic, but not exactly empowering. Max is a better person for doing these things. A person's worth isn't held in what they physically possess or accomplish. The game's pretty dismissive of that kind of thinking. quote:It's probably not what they want me to focus on and yeah, road to hell good intentions etc. etc. but the supernatural element to it all makes interpretation weird. There's a lot of mention of corruption and decay in Arcadia Bay and man vs. nature stuff, and Max's powers are associated with nature and yet...not much comes of it? I guess you can read the endings as "max was given doom powers to wreck the entire town so nature could reclaim it" or "max was given a big rear end test to see if Arcadia Bay was worth sparing the wrath of nature", but that feels a little silly. Was Max even intentionally given powers? It's like the game wants both a reason for the time powers that tie into a larger mythic narrative and no reason for the time powers because they're a metaphor for the quaint unpredictability of life or whatever. It colors your interpretation. I don't think this is right. Max's powers are clearly associated with photography, not 'nature'. Hence the extended metaphor about photos being "little slices of time". I also think you're overstating this "man vs nature" idea. The background details about aggressive estate construction and falling fish stocks are simply (optional) indicators for Arcadia Bay's corruption in general. They're as significant as Principal Wells' alcoholism, Blackwell's bullying problem, David's domestic abuse, the dog-fighting rings, etc. In turn, the town's corruption is part of the theme of "surface lies/inner truth", where Max needs to learn to engage with the world around her in order to truly see what's going on. The game is pretty left-wing and occasionally satirises conservative thinking. Sean Prescott's blather about his family having a destiny and giving the town the enema it deserves isn't evidence of a Satanic plot, it's standard FYGM rich person talk. The Prescotts are going to "make Arcadia Bay great again" by making a ton of cash selling overpriced homes to yuppies, and if you're too poor to keep up with the 'boom', well gently caress you got mine. It fits in right alongside David Madsen as a George Zimmerman figure, quadriplegic Chloe committing suicide in part because of a third-world healthcare system and the school/police all not-so-secretly being on the take. If you think there was or should have been a guiding intelligence behind the storm or corruption or time powers, then again, it seems like you've misunderstood the core premise of the story. The whole point of the butterfly effect thought experiment is that macro-scale phenomena can emerge non-intuitively from micro-scale actions. This is explicitly the cause of the storm. There's no God or Gaia pulling the strings so that it "all makes sense" for us, no "mythic narrative". Life is strange; poo poo happens. Obvious cause-and-effect is rarely true, and the meaning of events is constructed in spite of this, not because of it. Again, your reading of the game is wrong - it doesn't do what you want it to do. This isn't a crime, but you can't blame the game for this either. To be blunt, it's on you. There are no "sposeda's" in art.
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Feb 9, 2016 10:55
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Lt Danger most people are debating the events and themes of the game pretty amicably but you're the only one telling people they're literally wrong, there's no need to be antagonistic
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Feb 9, 2016 12:08
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He's right, though.
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Feb 9, 2016 12:43
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Quest For Glory II posted:Lt Danger most people are debating the events and themes of the game pretty amicably but you're the only one telling people they're literally wrong, there's no need to be antagonistic I don't think I've been rude at any point. Everyone has the right to have their own opinion, but that doesn't mean every opinion is accurate or logically coherent. For example, if you say they didn't plan for Mr Jefferson to be the villain, and it turns out the game lays groundwork for this in Episode 1, then your claim is incorrect. I'm not happy about it, you're not happy about it, but it's still wrong. Similarly, if you argue the storm is the deliberate act of a guiding intelligence, and the game not only doesn't support this but explicitly contradicts it, you can't then turn this failure around on the game. You can't criticise something for imagined inconsistency. For my part, I'm gonna stand up and say I was wrong when I said Max smiles at the end by the lighthouse. She actually smiles at the funeral, afterwards. Luckily this doesn't really affect my argument.
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Feb 9, 2016 12:47
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Lt. Danger posted:I don't think I've been rude at any point. Didn't the voice actor himself say that he hadn't known about Jefferson being a villain up until he did, though? You might argue that they simply decided to hide it from him, but that would make little sense, as his "nice" lines should be read quite differently than his villain lines, and the actor doesn't quite pull it off. The line is a wonderful red herring in that sense - if they decide to act upon it, they have a basis, however on the nose it is. If they don't, it's a nice twist on the "obvious suspect" formula. He's being a prick and doesn't support Kate, but turns down Victoria's advances. Two-faced or the writers covering their bases for further episodes? Maybe even both, you decide! Similarly, the tornado being simultaneously a natural phenomen and something that's awakened by time travel is both supported by the game, however. On the one hand, you have a literal anti-tornado bunker, on the other, Chloe says it won't wipe out the town if Max doesn't change her fate using the time travel powers. So one can be disappointed that the writers wanted to have their cake and it up until the point they simply had to commit to one or the other. It might not be a huge deal, of course, but it's there. Szurumbur fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 13:48
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Lt. Danger posted:Max is a better person for doing these things. A person's worth isn't held in what they physically possess or accomplish. The game's pretty dismissive of that kind of thinking. The argument was that "don't try unless you want to ruin everyone" isn't an impossible idea to pull from the game's events. Lt. Danger posted:Max's powers are clearly associated with photography, not 'nature'. If you think there was or should have been a guiding intelligence behind the storm or corruption or time powers- The first time we see time travel nonsense, it's associated with the storm and the spirit doe and then the butterfly. The powers are photography themed, but the last thing she does before her powers awaken is take a picture of a spirit animal butterfly. It's part of the magic in Arcadia Bay. The doom prophecies and nature omens and the "this is bigger than you" graffiti seem to imply that perhaps the looming disaster was set off long before Max, and I don't think that was all too unreasonable to infer. And when it comes to believing there needs to be an intelligence behind everything, I don't! I think the game implies both the time power just kind of happened and that there is something bigger behind it. Lt. Danger posted:overstating man vs. nature idea My memory of this game is fading pretty hard, so probably. The image of the town shriveling up and dying in tandem with nature and all the hubbub about "corruption" just seemed to stick out. Edit: It's not that I think I'm right or Lt. Danger's wrong, it's that I think the game made a lot of goofy design choices. I want to appreciate the story that's there, but I just can't. LoseHound fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Feb 9, 2016 |
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Feb 9, 2016 15:10
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Szurumbur posted:Didn't the voice actor himself say that he hadn't known about Jefferson being a villain up until he did, though? You might argue that they simply decided to hide it from him, but that would make little sense, as his "nice" lines should be read quite differently than his villain lines, and the actor doesn't quite pull it off. The line is a wonderful red herring in that sense - if they decide to act upon it, they have a basis, however on the nose it is. If they don't, it's a nice twist on the "obvious suspect" formula. He's being a prick and doesn't support Kate, but turns down Victoria's advances. Two-faced or the writers covering their bases for further episodes? Maybe even both, you decide! I lean towards Roger Ebert in this: quote:In the much-discussed final sequence of "Being There,'' Chance casually walks onto the surface of a lake. We can see that he is really walking on the water, because he leans over curiously and sticks his umbrella down into it. In the same vein, I don't think it's useful to ask these kinds of questions about the author's intent, as though there's a chance they might be tricking us - "none of it was true, they were making it up all along!" What matters is what the text says, and what meaning is created from that text. In this instance, Jefferson's reveal is foreshadowed early in the story (the classroom conversation, his displayed artwork in the school), is consistent with his character (he prefers reticent Max over promiscuous Victoria/Kate), and is consistent with the larger themes and motifs of the game (surface/truth, growing up, the photography and colour motifs). Whether "they" "meant" it or not is irrelevant. LoseHound posted:The argument was that "don't try unless you want to ruin everyone" isn't an impossible idea to pull from the game's events. Right, but that's not correct. Trying is what makes Max grow as a person. The Max who just sits there and has something terrible happen next to her is objectively worse off than the Max who tries and grows as (into) a person, even if they both end up experiencing the same events. quote:The first time we see time travel nonsense, it's associated with the storm and the spirit doe and then the butterfly. The powers are photography themed, but the last thing she does before her powers awaken is take a picture of a spirit animal butterfly. It's part of the magic in Arcadia Bay. The doom prophecies and nature omens and the "this is bigger than you" graffiti seem to imply that perhaps the looming disaster was set off long before Max, and I don't think that was all too unreasonable to infer. I think you're leaving out Chloe there, though. Chloe, the storm and the (perfectly natural non-spirit) butterfly are all one. Chloe gives Max her rewind, Chloe summons the storm, Chloe is the butterfly. If you frame it that way, I think, there's no need to infer a larger 'spirit world' prime mover/prophecy/antagonist/etc. quote:Edit: It's not that I think I'm right or Lt. Danger's wrong, it's that I think the game made a lot of goofy design choices. I want to appreciate the story that's there, but I just can't. Hey, it's cool. I can and have been wrong about stuff. I'm just big on taking ownership of our responses to art.
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Feb 9, 2016 16:37
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Lt. Danger posted:Right, but that's not correct. Trying is what makes Max grow as a person. The Max who just sits there and has something terrible happen next to her is objectively worse off than the Max who tries and grows as (into) a person, even if they both end up experiencing the same events. lmfao actually arguing that there are objective correct/incorrect interpretations of a story jfc.
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Feb 9, 2016 17:10
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| # ? May 23, 2024 21:36 |
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Nihilism isn't clever.
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Feb 9, 2016 17:11
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