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He had me at hair but the subtitles don't match the spoken words. edit: new page, new Pavel  http://i.imgur.com/0DDsu2L.jpg
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Feb 10, 2016 06:21
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Amethyst posted:By posting a story about someone getting caught? It sounds like that problem is being handled by existing enforcement mechanisms. SL is saying this isn't the case with the separate problem they're talking about While I was catching up on that argument, the point I wished I'd been around to make earlier is that enforcement has its own costs, and could very well end up costing more than the amount you're trying to recoup. If SL's main worry is not punishing bad guys, but keeping as much money available for welfare programs as possible, then he should be against enforcement when it is not cost effective. A big embezzlement case like this however, serves as an example of when enforcement is worth it.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:24
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When people say 'welfare fraud' they mean people on newstart and want crackdowns on dole bludgers when the last major inquiry found that it's people receiving other payments that are defrauding the system the most. I'd argue enforcement is still warranted as deterrence is still a factors however if you're talking about addressing problem areas than that area is not newstart.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:27
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Bifauxnen posted:While I was catching up on that argument, the point I wished I'd been around to make earlier is that enforcement has its own costs, and could very well end up costing more than the amount you're trying to recoup. If SL's main worry is not punishing bad guys, but keeping as much money available for welfare programs as possible, then he should be against enforcement when it is not cost effective. Your point is valid but it's still completely beside the "example" of this embezzlement case. It's value as an example is zero. If you disagree, can you please provide anything that shows employee embezzlement is a problem at centrelink beyond this anecdote?
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Feb 10, 2016 06:28
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Amethyst posted:Your point is valid but it's still completely beside the "example" of this embezzlement case. It's value as an example is zero. If you disagree, can you please provide anything that shows employee embezzlement is a problem at centrelink beyond this anecdote? Nah.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:31
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Bifauxnen posted:Nah. Yeah. Because I'm correct.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:33
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Amethyst posted:Yeah. Because I'm correct. Yeah sure, I'll agree you're correct. If you can just remind me what specifically it is you're correct about?
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Feb 10, 2016 06:34
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Amethyst posted:Your point is valid but it's still completely beside the "example" of this embezzlement case. It's value as an example is zero. If you disagree, can you please provide anything that shows employee embezzlement is a problem at centrelink beyond this anecdote? Llama only posted anecdotes, nothing else. This was also an anecdote. It showed that 'welfare fraud' really doesn't come down to people on Newstart. Seeing as Llama likes anecdotes it seemed only fair to find a more egregious example to counter his points. Are you deliberately missing the forest for the trees or is this just natural talent?
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Feb 10, 2016 06:34
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Bifauxnen posted:Yeah sure, I'll agree you're correct. If you can just remind me what specifically it is you're correct about? The example being irrelevant.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:38
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Birb Katter posted:It showed that 'welfare fraud' really doesn't come down to people on Newstart. Wow! There is more than one type of fraud in the world. I have a lot to think about, here. Thanks Birb! This was well intentioned debate and not an impotent attempt to get your own back at a person you dislike.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:39
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Amethyst posted:The example being irrelevant. Irrelevant to people trying to make the point to SL that there are things worth being more worried about than the classic "dole bludgers"?
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Feb 10, 2016 06:39
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Bifauxnen posted:Irrelevant to people trying to make the point to SL that there are things worth being more worried about than the classic "dole bludgers"? Unless you want your argument to be uselessly broad to the point where it has zero value outside of the establishment of auspol thread pecking order, yes.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:42
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Warren Truss to retire as early as tomorrow, apparently. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-10/warren-truss-expected-to-retire-as-early-as-tomorrow/7157176
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Feb 10, 2016 06:43
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Amoeba102 posted:Warren Truss to retire as early as tomorrow, apparently. Barnaby Joyce soon to be one heart beat away from being Prime Minister.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:45
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Amethyst posted:Unless you want your argument to be uselessly broad to the point where it has zero value outside of the establishment of auspol thread pecking order, yes. "Stop buying into the myth of dole bludgers SL, it's counterproductive" is a good point to make, though. I was hoping, as the other fans of this anecdote appeared to be hoping, that it could maybe inspire a bit of reflection.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:46
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Ruddock announces retirement. Truss to announce retirement. Gearing up to have positions settled before an election by the looks of it.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:47
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Bifauxnen posted:"Stop buying into the myth of dole bludgers SL, it's counterproductive" is a good point to make, though. I was hoping, as the other fans of this anecdote appeared to be hoping, that it could maybe inspire a bit of reflection. Proof, once again, that hope is a waste of time and there is no saving us.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:48
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please don't argue with amethyst jesus even fatchat was better than this
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Feb 10, 2016 06:52
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Bifauxnen posted:"Stop buying into the myth of dole bludgers SL, it's counterproductive" is a good point to make, though. I was hoping, as the other fans of this anecdote appeared to be hoping, that it could maybe inspire a bit of reflection. You can make that point using honest reasoning, instead of a shallow and selective interpretation of a sad story about gambling addiction.
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Feb 10, 2016 06:55
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Amoeba102 posted:Ruddock announces retirement. Truss to announce retirement. Gearing up to have positions settled before an election by the looks of it. https://twitter.com/JamColley/status/697291086499164161
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Feb 10, 2016 06:55
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Amethyst posted:You can make that point using honest reasoning, instead of a shallow and selective interpretation of a sad story about gambling addiction. So when Llama posted anecdotes of people abusing welfare for things like gambling addictions he was arguing in bad faith to start with?
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Feb 10, 2016 06:56
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Laserface posted:~Story time~ Had to say thanks to Laserface for this. Your ~Story~ persuaded me to get a much lighter lunch today.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:01
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Birb Katter posted:So when Llama posted anecdotes of people abusing welfare for things like gambling addictions he was arguing in bad faith to start with? Uh, you guys have hounded them mercilessly for that. My input was not needed.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:01
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I only bare my hanzo steel when it is absolutely necessary.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:02
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Ahem EVERYONE LISTEN UP OK Amethyst here doesn't always get a lot of respect But I am a woman of my word And when he said that my referring to this contentious anecdote "example", which was in fact a shallow and selective interpretation of a sad story about gambling addiction, was irrelevant and of zero value (to the task of persuading SA poster ScreamingLlama that he should not buy into the myth of demonizing dole bludgers) He was  CORRECT Thank you.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:11
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So what you are saying is that it's okay to demonize dole bludgers?
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Feb 10, 2016 07:18
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Bifauxnen posted:Ahem I'm glad we've resolved this multi-page discussion you vigorously participated in.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:21
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Recoome posted:So what you are saying is that it's okay to demonize dole bludgers? Who, me? Nah, I'm just admitting that my referring to this contentious anecdote "example", which was in fact a shallow and selective interpretation of a sad story about gambling addiction, was irrelevant and of zero value (to the task of persuading SA poster ScreamingLlama that he should not buy into the myth of demonizing dole bludgers). Obviously. I still wish he could be persuaded though!
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Feb 10, 2016 07:22
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Amethyst posted:I'm glad we've resolved this multi-page discussion you vigorously participated in. 
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Feb 10, 2016 07:26
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Bifauxnen posted:Who, me? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them empathise I guess
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Feb 10, 2016 07:27
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If I'm going to be relentlessly hounded and bullied in this thread, there's no point in me trying to make any kind of point or argument. Especially since my own impairments are being used as ammunition. There's no low some people in auspol won't go to.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:30
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ScreamingLlama posted:If I'm going to be relentlessly hounded and bullied in this thread, there's no point in me trying to make any kind of point or argument. Especially since my own impairments are being used as ammunition. There's no low some people in auspol won't go to. Uh, I just slayed a bunch of noobs for you. The least you could do is claim victory. Come on.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:32
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ScreamingLlama posted:If I'm going to be relentlessly hounded and bullied in this thread, there's no point in me trying to make any kind of point or argument. Especially since my own impairments are being used as ammunition. There's no low some people in auspol won't go to. Think of us as the AEC, you need to prove that you have enough people that like your point of view before we consider you worthy of a party.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:35
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Bifauxnen posted:Who, me? Amethyst doesn't realise that a pointless welfare anecdote was used to counter pointless welfare anecdotes though. Well he seems smart enough to realise that but he's avoiding that point. You're not right, but the thing you're wrong about wasn't the point.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:36
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Birb Katter posted:Amethyst doesn't realise that a pointless welfare anecdote was used to counter pointless welfare anecdotes though. Well he seems smart enough to realise that but he's avoiding that point. You're not right, but the thing you're wrong about wasn't the point. Ah yes, your moronic argument was in fact a parody of a lesser poster's argument. Plausible af.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:37
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Amethyst posted:Ah yes, your moronic argument was in fact a parody of a lesser poster's argument. Plausible af. I'm invoking the puppet master defence. Or you know, it had a direct relationship with what was going on.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:39
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Birb Katter posted:I'm invoking the puppet master defence. Or you know, it had a direct relationship with what was going on.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:43
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Amethyst posted:I hope it's number 1, because number 2 is somehow worse. Knowingly making a specious argument - which is immediately torn apart - in an effort to make a point you truly believe in is some truly idiotic rhetoric, my man. This is auspol, if you think it's anything other than #2 it is you who are the idiot.
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Feb 10, 2016 07:48
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ScreamingLlama posted:If I'm going to be relentlessly hounded and bullied in this thread, there's no point in me trying to make any kind of point or argument. Especially since my own impairments are being used as ammunition. There's no low some people in auspol won't go to. SL I'm going to try to give you some honest advice, because I try not to make a point of being an arsehole, and try to engage people with their passions - it's why I'm glad you've got an interest in the democrats because you're at least motivated enough to try and work for them even if you don't have much of an audience here itt. I try in general not to go along with the echo chamber stuff that this thread does because I personally find it a bit irritating, but that's on me. Part of the reason you get so much poo poo from people is that they're looking for a reaction from you, and you give it to them. All the ASMR stuff, all the insults, it's to get you to melt down, because you haven't demonstrated the capacity to absorb it and move it to where it needs to go, you have however demonstrated a tendency to melt down, you get angry, and you dish it back and it makes you look like an easy target, so it makes it so that people want to target you and it's the reason you're getting so much poo poo from people. My honest advice to you, that I hope you take from this is that if anyone in auspol - or even in general - start to fling hateful poo poo at you, just respond with "ok" - because ok gives people nothing to work with at all. There's a reason I've got this avatar right now  For what it's worth mate, I don't personally agree with your argument that welfare fraud is of national concern given that the overall fraud rate is relatively low according to the numbers cited, and I completely buy the argument that the money spent in chasing this down could be far better used for other things, such as tax avoidance etc etc, but I feel that this is an argument for a different time. Good luck with the democrats
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Feb 10, 2016 07:54
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tithin posted:SL I'm going to try to give you some honest advice, because I try not to make a point of being an arsehole, and try to engage people with their passions - it's why I'm glad you've got an interest in the democrats because you're at least motivated enough to try and work for them even if you don't have much of an audience here itt. Counter point, I use the asmr stuff etc to have a go at him because he's being a dumb poo poo face and I have nothing else better to do with my time. More seriously though, SL was getting poo poo for having a go at 'cracking down on welfare fraud' because a while ago he was complaining about struggling to get welfare for what sounds like a legit issue. Not being able to combine the rhetoric about 'welfare fraud' with the lived experience of legit requests for welfare being knocked back is a pretty solid reason to give him poo poo.
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Feb 10, 2016 08:00
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