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2 dice on 2 ships is worse than 3 dice on 1 ship, since you are pretty much doubling the amount of defensive dice your opponent has.
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Feb 12, 2016 20:51
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The Gate posted:They're still very inefficient on red dice, though? Almost 30 points for 3 red dice isn't good. It's attached to a very durable body, sure, probably more durable than 2 Z95, but it's not pouring out tons of hits for that cost. A naked T-70 is four points less than a TIE/x7 for a worse dial, worse action economy, and worse green dice, and both are a three-dice gun, and several people in this thread and elsewhere have said the T-70 is good, above-average, or, depending on who you choose to read, "busted." At 28 points an /x7 Defender is only 2 more than a ship widely considered to be hilariously undercosted (Omega Leader) and is more efficient than that ship is. The /x7 Defender is beefy, has the right gun for the meta, is brutally efficient, and gets action economy for better than free prices (-2).
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Feb 12, 2016 20:54
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The Gate posted:Okay, but the list isn't called 3Z and Han. It's Fat Han. Plus whatever escort you choose, one of which is 3Z. The Z95 isn't the cornerstone of the list. The nomenclature likes to focus on the names of ace pilots, if there are any. But I will argue to the death that the Zs made the list. I had fat han as a gimmick at first, and thought it was neat to see it with all the upgrades, and then refined it over time. (It used to have a shield upgrade before I realized engine upgrade is effectively 3 shield upgrades when you dodge a ship, for example). But the Zs taking over large amounts of area and being able to down Bs and Ys and decimators efficiently is a huge part of that list. And if they can't down it, they bump it. Han wouldn't function nearly as well with only 2 escort ships and believe me I've tried. A stress hog or biggs + Z is much, much worse than 3 Z, even though those Zs don't do anything as useful as a stresshog does on paper. A friend does well with Han + Jake with missiles and I guess it functions like Corran/dash do and was able to take a decent store champs recently with it. But the original fat han requires the Zs as much as it does Han. area control is how the list works.
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Feb 12, 2016 20:55
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guts and bolts posted:A naked T-70 is four points less than a TIE/x7 for a worse dial, worse action economy, and worse green dice, and both are a three-dice gun, and several people in this thread and elsewhere have said the T-70 is good, above-average, or, depending on who you choose to read, "busted." At 28 points an /x7 Defender is only 2 more than a ship widely considered to be hilariously undercosted (Omega Leader) and is more efficient than that ship is. The /x7 Defender is beefy, has the right gun for the meta, is brutally efficient, and gets action economy for better than free prices (-2). I'd say the T-70 has an equal dial, possibly better, depending on how you fly them. 1 straight is a strong maneuver against Imps. I dislike them personally, I'd say they're an average, maybe slightly above average ship, except for the aces who are pretty drat good. If you think that the Defender is so crazy OP, I'll gladly fly against the list with a bunch of my own lists. If I'm completely wrong, I'll at least have the practice, or we'll find out how to beat the Defender.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:07
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The Gate posted:I'd say the T-70 has an equal dial, possibly better, depending on how you fly them. 1 straight is a strong maneuver against Imps. I dislike them personally, I'd say they're an average, maybe slightly above average ship, except for the aces who are pretty drat good. I'm unironically interested in doing this, with any permutation of people flying the Defender list. I've tried POW and squeaked a win, tried VFO and got annihilated, tried Poe/Red Ace/Y-Wing and got smoked, and tried Guri + munitions and scored a win because they were sloppy. I need to buy a couple more Defenders, for sure, and I think I might just buy in on the BBBBZ as well just to have the list available to me, but seriously - if people are going to be practicing DVD at the LGS, count me in. I want to learn tech against the list. EDIT: w/r/t to the T-70 dial: I agree that the 1-straight is probably the most underrated maneuver in the game; I didn't appreciate it until I lost it switching from XXY to VFP/VFO/POW. That said, I still think the T-70's dial is mediocre, maybe less than that, and that the Defender's dial is actually good - not incredible, but certainly good. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 21:09
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guts and bolts posted:I'm unironically interested in doing this, with any permutation of people flying the Defender list. I've tried POW and squeaked a win, tried VFO and got annihilated, tried Poe/Red Ace/Y-Wing and got smoked, and tried Guri + munitions and scored a win because they were sloppy. I need to buy a couple more Defenders, for sure, and I think I might just buy in on the BBBBZ as well just to have the list available to me, but seriously - if people are going to be practicing DVD at the LGS, count me in. I want to learn tech against the list. I believe I was told quote:I'm never playing against your proxy defenders again For serious though they're fun to play, if you guys haven't tried 2 defenders + ace or 3 defenders give it a shot. I'm partial to adaptability Vader, ion veseery, x7 delta. Could also fit in Jax or omega leader and sprinkle in some stealth devices.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:20
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Without tie mk ii I would say the base dial is worse than a t-70: stress a defender and he's in a very bad position. I was gonna buy up a new defender anyway to paint it up, so I'll have three defenders to try DVD myself and report back.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:20
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Brunas posted:For serious though they're fun to play, if you guys haven't tried 2 defenders + ace or 3 defenders give it a shot. I'm partial to adaptability Vader, ion veseery, x7 delta. Could also fit in Jax or omega leader and sprinkle in some stealth devices. "fun" in the sense that winning is fun, you ~netlister~ now, let me talk more about my Original Ideas Do Not Steal, such as Whisper, Omega Leader, and a shuttle with Palpatine on it
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Feb 12, 2016 21:22
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kingcom posted:Scum TIEs when Cool paint schemes but goddamn if a unshielded Tie isn't the worst ship you could have if you had a secret mining base in the asteroids
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Feb 12, 2016 21:22
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Tekopo posted:Without tie mk ii I would say the base dial is worse than a t-70: stress a defender and he's in a very bad position. I was gonna buy up a new defender anyway to paint it up, so I'll have three defenders to try DVD myself and report back. /x7 means you can white-move and still get your Evade, FYI - you don't do an Evade action, you are assigned an Evade token I don't mean to come off as "fun police" again, or whatever, but the T-70s dial is definitely not as good as the Defender's
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Feb 12, 2016 21:24
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Yeah, I'm game to try it out. I almost hope the Defender is OP, I just don't see it happening. I played Rexler for ages, and it was always disappointing. Vessery was really better, but so expensive that it didn't really come together in a list.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:26
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guts and bolts posted:/x7 means you can white-move and still get your Evade, FYI - you don't do an Evade action, you are assigned an Evade token
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Feb 12, 2016 21:31
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Tekopo posted:Yeah, but you still want to clear the stress and being limited to straights can be crippling. You might get the evade but not being able to TL or focus or barrel roll is not great. I played around with defenders when they first came out, including in tourneys and smart opponents could play around the TIE Defender very easily. I think TIE mk II makes the ship a whole lot better and allows you an unprecedented access to the sharp 1/2 and makes the dial much better and way above the t-70. An /x7 generic TIE can feasibly leave the stress intact for a turn or two no problem, and then straight to clear it off when necessary. Vessery is no different, and because the K-turn is white, you always have to respect it, whether he is stressed or not, because if you're in Vessery's arc with an ace, that ace is crippled or dead. That is before even knowing who the other pilots are.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:34
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Tekopo posted:Yeah, but you still want to clear the stress and being limited to straights can be crippling. You might get the evade but not being able to TL or focus or barrel roll is not great. I played around with defenders when they first came out, including in tourneys and smart opponents could play around the TIE Defender very easily. I think TIE mk II makes the ship a whole lot better and allows you an unprecedented access to the sharp 1/2 and makes the dial much better and way above the t-70. When you you defenders, you should really say Vessery, as he's by far the best pilot. x7 Vessery can almost completely ignore stress, and D Vessery cares only slightly more. Also, you should really only be picking up stress from stressbots and tactician, or rarely a clutch 1 turn. If you've got two defenders in your list it's a different story, but it's hard to pick up stress on a defender and not a huge deal when you have it. You can always take TIE mk2 if you're concerned about it, but I suspect after a few games you'll drop it as unnecessary.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:37
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guts and bolts posted:An /x7 generic TIE can feasibly leave the stress intact for a turn or two no problem, and then straight to clear it off when necessary. Vessery is no different, and because the K-turn is white, you always have to respect it, whether he is stressed or not, because if you're in Vessery's arc with an ace, that ace is crippled or dead. That is before even knowing who the other pilots are.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:41
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Yea I don't think the defender dial is better really, it's very comparable. The thing is that the x7 defender is way more survivable than a nonace t70 could hope to be.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:44
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Brunas posted:When you you defenders, you should really say Vessery, as he's by far the best pilot. x7 Vessery can almost completely ignore stress, and D Vessery cares only slightly more. Also, you should really only be picking up stress from stressbots and tactician, or rarely a clutch 1 turn.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:48
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This brings me back to when I started playing actually. My first tourney list was Vessery, Soontir and a OGP shuttle (for the target lock). The shuttle was the cheapest TL for the imps at the time and the list did decently but was never great. I remember feeling really sad when I realised that if I replaced Vessery for whisper, who cost comparable points, I would have a much more effective list.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:53
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Tekopo posted:Can you set something straight: are you comparing the dial purely on the basis of the dial, or based on the existence of Vessery/x7? I agree that Vessery does not require actions to perform well, if someone else has a target lock on his target, but if you are going for a tie/d build with him, he will die if things fire at him. And I can almost agree that x7 does edge the defender dial over the t-70, but I would still argue that a direct comparison of the t-70 over the defender dial is not as clear cut if you do not take in consideration possible upgrades/pilots. I'm comparing the dials naked. The T-70 has: 1-speed Banks L/R (green) 1-speed Straight (green) 2-speed Turns L/R (white) 2-speed Banks L/R (white) 2-speed Straight (green) 3-speed Tallon Rolls L/R (red) 3-speed Turns L/R (white) 3-speed Banks L/R (white) 3-speed Straight (green) 4-speed Straight (white) 4-speed Koiogran Turn (red) This is the definition of a mediocre dial. It has a cool gimmick move (I love the T-Roll) and otherwise needs to go straight or 1-bank to clear stress, giving it a mild advantage over the Defender. Limited options at speed 1. No speed 5 maneuver at all. Turning options are wide. Tricks cost you stress, and usually your action. The Defender: 1-speed Turns L/R (red) 1-speed Banks L/R (white) 2-speed Turns L/R (red) 2-speed Banks L/R (white) 2-speed Straight (green) 3-speed Turns L/R (white) 3-speed Banks L/R (white) 3-speed Straight (green) 4-speed Straight (green) 4-speed Koiogran Turn (white) 5-speed Straight (green) This dial, naked, is actually really good. Why you're so caught up in 1-turning is beyond me; the Defender has plenty of other available options when dogfighting, and you're not super invested in getting that range 1 shot, because you're a three-dice primary anyway - you'll make do. You eat stress on 1-speed and 2-speed turns, but you get a free trick at speed 4; you can only clear stress on straights, but can do so at a faster and much faster speed maneuver than the T-70 can, including having a speed 5 maneuver at all; turning options are wide, but the white K compensates for this quite a lot. If you think the Defender's dial is comparable to the T-70's, I don't know what else to say except that we don't agree, fundamentally, about what makes a dial good. /x7 makes it non-negotiably better. w/r/t to Vessery, neither the generic Delta pilot nor Vessery are particularly worried about stress - they can still white-K, and Vessery still gets his target locks and the Delta still gets his Evade. That is what I was saying. If you think that /x7 only "edges" the dial over the T-70's, I just... like, I don't see how further discussion would be productive, here.
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Feb 12, 2016 21:57
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Paging Strobe; do you have a plan anytime you face a 4 TLT list, or anything that's going to be able to throw a lot of dice at your XXX list? Is it really as "simple" as trying to get into range 1 while hammering one ship at a time? Maybe blow the Flechette on whichever ship would cause the biggest problem having to stick to white or green? I have a Store Champ in 2 weeks and I'm not confident enough in Brobots to take them yet. I figure XXX will be harder to figure out for my league's meta. EDIT: Also, what about dropping the Flechette to get Opportunist on Wedge? An extra attack die on Wedge is great but it's not guaranteed to proc (especially if Wes is dead or out of range) while Predator is always available. Admiral Joeslop fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 21:59
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guts and bolts posted:Soontir oscillates between "decent" to "suicidally bad choice."  We fundamentally disagree on wangs. guts and bolts posted:If you look at the game from a purely balance perspective, Poe has terrible action economy, multiple hard counters, and a mediocre dial. Compared to what though? Poe's ability is one of the most efficient in the game. With PTL and BB8 he can take three, hard to block actions in a turn, without stress. 'Multiple hard counters' = block him and focus fire, just like any ace in the game. I was thinking the dial was better than it actually was, because last game I played had a generic with an R2. The dial becomes pretty sweet with a green 2 hard.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:01
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hoiyes posted:
If you think Soontir Fel is a better option at this point than Omega Leader is, yep, we just don't agree. I don't even think Soontir Fel is one of the five most attractive options for an Empire list at this point. The stuff that beats Fel crushes him. quote:Compared to what though? Poe's ability is one of the most efficient in the game. With PTL and BB8 he can take three, hard to block actions in a turn, without stress. 'Multiple hard counters' = block him and focus fire, just like any ace in the game. If you take PTL and BB-8 he can barrel roll/boost, then 1-bank or 1-straight, then must Focus. Every turn. If you don't see how this could create problems for a PS8 pilot, I don't know what to tell you. Poe also insta-dies to stress on top of having way, way worse action economy, because he basically can't feasibly take PTL - he needs VI, or barring that, Adaptability. If you think "blocking" and "focus fire" is the only weakness in Poe... EDIT: I mean, I'm on record as saying Poe and Han are my favorite pilots in the game. I'm not smack-talking pilots I don't like. When I first started playing X-Wing, I ran PTL/BB-8 Poe exclusively, for weeks. I'm not Paul Heaver, but I'm confident in supplying an opinion about Poe "Waifu Pillow" Dameron guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 22:06
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guts and bolts posted:If you think Soontir Fel is a better option at this point than Omega Leader is, yep, we just don't agree. I don't even think Soontir Fel is one of the five most attractive options for an Empire list at this point. The stuff that beats Fel crushes him. Pray tell, what are the five most attractive options?
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Feb 12, 2016 22:12
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Soontir Fel's usefulness oscillates between metas where people realize Han has a K-turn and those that don't. 
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Feb 12, 2016 22:13
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guts and bolts posted:I'm comparing the dials naked. The T-70 has: I have run against stress builds with defenders and having only green on the straight is very unforgiving and leads you to either not being able to line up shots or losing actions/not being able to defend yourself, and the tie defender absolutely relies on focus to have even the barest chance to survive. And there are a lot of things that can potentially give you stress: debris fields, stress bots, rebel captives, tactician, the forthcoming zuckuss (iirc). I'll give you a direct example of a game I was in. I had Vessery chasing an a-wing that needed to die, but had a Luke behind me. I destroyed the a-wing thanks to Vessery, but he was facing the corner. I couldn't bank because that would just have Luke behind me, if I did a sharp 1/2 the lack of focus would kill me and I couldn't 4K or turn 3 because that would have caused me to come off the board. I banked, focused and died anyway. Looking over it again, I do agree now that the x7 version far outclasses the t-70, so I do agree with you on that.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:16
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Some Numbers posted:Pray tell, what are the five most attractive options? In my opinion? I like Vader, OLeader, either shuttle with Palpatine on it (Yorr is tremendous, seriously), Whisper, Black Squadron Pilots with Crack Shot, Howlrunner, and, post-Veterans, Vessery at least, maybe even a generic Delta pilot. I just traded for Soontir Fel. I'm going to run him in lists. I don't think he's unplayable garbage. I think he is either decently good (a lot of matchups) or completely garbage (fewer matchups), and the idea that someone could run Gunner or Brobots or, God help me, a Vader-crewed Decimator realistically at store league/store champs is a big turn-off. He just straight up auto-loses those matches. More to the point, even in matches where he's good, one bad roll basically ends your day, because if you lose the Stealth Device you're basically dead. I've espoused his strengths before. Token-tanking Fel is playable. And some of why I still like him is because he fits into lists like VFP, or as the companion ace to Howlrunner + Black Crack. But so does VI Vader, and I have way more confidence in him; so does OLeader, and I think he's straight up better; and I'd rather have POW than any Fel list, full stop.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:17
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Given the prevalence of VSP lists I'm actually surprised the promo card isn't $20 already. Meanwhile I'm still trying to acquire disco Vader since I wasn't able to attend a tournament with it.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:23
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Tekopo posted:All discussion is productive IMO. I don't think the t-70 dial is good, but not having access to a speed 2 turn that isn't red is an advantage, and being able to to turn around with 3 options is also good, even though the one option of the defender is white. I mean, you say that the speed 1 options on the t-70 are limited, but for the defender it is even more limited. Speed 1, as pointed out before both by you and others, are absolutely great and make up for the lack of 5 straight. This depends on context. Poe is much worse at running away when trying to regen, because he basically can't - if he does get stressed, he can 3 straight, Focus, and wait to die, I guess. For a lot of match-ups I've switched to running R2-D2 Poe for just this reason. I think that the speed 1 straight is really good - better than a speed 5 straight, yes - but the T-70 cannot speed 1 turn at all. It isn't even a choice. Forget stressing to get it, you just can't do it, fully. I don't think that's crippling, but it deserves mention. I agree with basically all of this, except I think I'd rather have the white K than the T-Roll (it hurts to say this) and the red 4K on ships with these statlines. quote:I have run against stress builds with defenders and having only green on the straight is very unforgiving and leads you to either not being able to line up shots or losing actions/not being able to defend yourself, and the tie defender absolutely relies on focus to have even the barest chance to survive. And there are a lot of things that can potentially give you stress: debris fields, stress bots, rebel captives, tactician, the forthcoming zuckuss (iirc). In its current incarnation I don't disagree with you, and even post-Veterans Vessery will need to be careful about who is shooting over him. /x7 Defenders care very little about being stressed, however, because the Evade token is assigned, not an action. You no longer have to be terrified of dying before being able to contribute. This will only help your style of play anyway, since you're stress-averse, because you will be Focusing and Evading on most every turn. This makes you functionally unhittable by most currently-in-meta guns, and if you don't get shot (since it's such an unattractive option), you can modify your own three-dice gun in return. It's good. EDIT: For example, token-tanking Fel is functionally similar to you (3(4) green dice, a focus to spend, an evade to spend) except he gets Autothrusters and you don't, while you get three shields in exchange). I should state that for sure I don't think you're absolutely wrong, or I'm absolutely right - I actually have a lot of respect for dissenting opinions from mine, both because I tend to be super wrong when I am wrong, and because changing my view on the game has led to me becoming a decently respectable player. Like I said, when I started, I was in love with PTL/BB-8 Poe and was convinced he was awesome and I just wasn't playing it right, but when you get down to brass tacks, he has serious flaws and weaknesses that are exploitable on the regular. So I had to change. If the TIE Defender winds up being anything less than stellar, barring some intervening upgrades that we don't yet know about, I would be shocked. That's all I'm saying, really. That thing is scary. EDIT: ^^^^ Chill la Chill posted:Given the prevalence of VSP lists I'm actually surprised the promo card isn't $20 already. Meanwhile I'm still trying to acquire disco Vader since I wasn't able to attend a tournament with it. I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, but I have a very good shot at winning a third Disco Vader at store league. If you're interested in a trade lemme know, but I think you live local to enough X-Wing players to where this probably isn't necessary? guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 22:26
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guts and bolts posted:In my opinion? I like Vader, OLeader, either shuttle with Palpatine on it (Yorr is tremendous, seriously), Whisper, Black Squadron Pilots with Crack Shot, Howlrunner, and, post-Veterans, Vessery at least, maybe even a generic Delta pilot. I'd very much disagree that Whisper is better than Soontir. One extra die of attack is nice, but she's vastly more fragile and vastly more vulnerable to higher PS. She will usually only be defending with one token, if any, and doesn't get autothrusters. SHe's a shitton more vulnerable to fickle loving green dice. Plus, weirdly, will tend to be more predictable; she has less post-movement repositioning, and is therefore easier to screw with by outguessing her; Soontir can turtle up or flee if you get him to go the wrong way, Whisper just sits there waiting to explode. For my money Imperial aces (assuming equally skilled piloting) go VI Vader, Soontir, Omega Leader, Whisper, others, at the moment, but Imperial Veterans will play merry hell with that. There are a few completely hard counters to Soontir, notably VI Ten Numb is a (very expensive) bastard for Soontir to take down, but if you build right, the rest of your list should be able to handle the hard counters whilst Soontir stays away. The real trick with any list building is not to look at individual ships in isolation; the list as a whole is what you're building. Super Soontir is great but he has weaknesses, you need to cover those with the rest of your list.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:29
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thespaceinvader posted:I'd very much disagree that Whisper is better than Soontir. One extra die of attack is nice, but she's vastly more fragile and vastly more vulnerable to higher PS. She will usually only be defending with one token, if any, and doesn't get autothrusters. SHe's a shitton more vulnerable to fickle loving green dice. I agree with your final point, which is why I find Whisper better. She slots in with incredible synergy in POW; OLeader can reliably kill aces, and is a game-changing nuisance even when he can't, while Whisper annihilates swarms of any stripe, still gets to PS9, can do her usual decloaking shenanigans, and can freely stress as long as she's in range 2 of Yorr. POW by itself is better, to me, than any Fel list at this moment in time, and Whisper's hardest counters (getting out-PS'd at 9, getting blocked, fickle dice) hurt Soontir Fel at least as much. And if Soontir is staying away, you are basically conceding that 65 points of your list now needs to beat 100 of theirs. No such list exists, imo. Vader/Palp isn't going to chew through Brobots without help - again, assuming equal skill. OLeader is (controversial opinion alert I guess?) the best Empire ace in the game currently. His dial is great, he's 26 points, he's naturally PS8, and his pilot ability is absolutely ridiculous. He even ships with both upgrades he wants to slot immediately. He's my No. 1 with a bullet.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:34
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I think we just have to agree to disagree then. Fel is a lot less vulnerable to higher-PS aces than Whisper. He gets 4 dice from the word go where Whisper only gets them if she shoots first, and he gets tokens where whisper gets one or no tokens. If you have to keep fel away whilst 65 points of your list kills 40 points of theirs... he's staying away killing the other 60 points of theirs. And the same 40 points of theirs hard-counters Whisper just as well. Their vulnerabilities are basically identical, but Soontir weathers them better at the expense of a weaker punch.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:42
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guts and bolts posted:This depends on context. Poe is much worse at running away when trying to regen, because he basically can't - if he does get stressed, he can 3 straight, Focus, and wait to die, I guess. For a lot of match-ups I've switched to running R2-D2 Poe for just this reason. I think that the speed 1 straight is really good - better than a speed 5 straight, yes - but the T-70 cannot speed 1 turn at all. It isn't even a choice. Forget stressing to get it, you just can't do it, fully. I don't think that's crippling, but it deserves mention. I agree with basically all of this, except I think I'd rather have the white K than the T-Roll (it hurts to say this) and the red 4K on ships with these statlines.  I've just had experience the pre MK2 defender and you basically couldn't touch the sharp 1 or 2, unless it was a real emergency. TIE Mk2 not only makes you less susceptible to stress lists, but also lets you use those turns and even with the Vessery tie/d lists I've been running (him and 4 FOs is really good!) and the mk2 has saved my butt loads of times.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:42
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thespaceinvader posted:I think we just have to agree to disagree then. Fel is a lot less vulnerable to higher-PS aces than Whisper. He gets 4 dice from the word go where Whisper only gets them if she shoots first, and he gets tokens where whisper gets one or no tokens. Whisper can eat up Crack Shot swarms while Fel can't; Whisper has shields, and doesn't immediately die on a trivial one-hit-got-through roll; higher-PS aces eat Whisper harder but still eat both of them; Soontir staying away from Brobots or a Decimator means you are not Vader/Palp against 40 points, you are Vader/Palp against all 100 points of their list, because Soontir literally cannot join the fight; Soontir cannot compensate for his bad matchups by just killing them before they become problematic. I don't think you're unequivocally wrong, but yeah, I just don't agree. POW is better than VFP in my mind in almost every respect.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:51
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it's truly a great era for X-wing if people think Soontir Fel is only descent and not a top 5 ship for Empire. not that I think they're right, but it's definitely refreshing
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Feb 12, 2016 22:53
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alg posted:it's truly a great era for X-wing if people think Soontir Fel is only descent and not a top 5 ship for Empire. I might be being hyperbolic; he's probably still a top 5 ship. But declaring him some "UNDISPUTED BEST EMPIRE ACE" seems a little foolhardy. Like, in my estimation, OLeader and Vader are just plain better than him. Whisper and Palpmobiles you could sway me on. Post-Veterans, man, I don't know. I personally am not afraid of Soontir Fel. I am genuinely worried about other POW lists, OLeader in general, Black Crack swarms as most of my lists, well-flown Brobots, stresshog lists, etc. EDIT: Discussing it with friends now, I get that Fel will never not be a super-attractive option if TLTs dominate your meta, but there are other answers to that while avoiding the binary nature of Fel in general. guts and bolts fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 23:05
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This is kind of funny cause in my last game I lost OLeader early due to a misplay, Vader was token out as well and then Soontir cleared house. That might potentially be because I have experience flying Soontir and not the other two though 
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Feb 12, 2016 23:11
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While I think guts and bolts is a bit prone to hyperbole, I have to say that I've also redefined my opinion of Soontir recently. It used to be that he was the Imperial ace. Soontir alone could clear entire boards with good flying and a tiny bit of luck. I've seen it. I've done it. But recently, that's started to change. The things that counter Soontir counter him hard, and there are a number of things that, while not especially dangerous, make his life a lot harder. Today, the only hard counters you're likely to see is the stresshog and Omega Leader. Sometimes Vader crew. That'll probably change in Wave 8. A lot of the new upgrades (especially for Scum) in Wave 8 look to be hard counters also. You have cards that make you re-roll dice. You have cards that make you take stress. You have cards that remove your upgrades. You have cards that make you take damage when you shoot. I mean, let's face it: Soontir is, at all times, one bad roll away from death. For years he's been able to stack that roll heavily in his favor. All of those things tilt the odds away from him. There are other things that Soontir isn't really effective against. Regen rebels take forever to kill, especially Poe. K-Wings are super difficult to catch. Ello Asty is all but impossible to tail. If you do get behind him, he'll just T-Roll and boost behind YOU the next round. All of these are reasons that I think Soontir is no longer the top Imperial ace. At what point is it too risky to put a third of your list on one ship with 3HP? The time is rapidly approaching (if it's not already here) where he's no longer the first thought for an Imperial ace.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:15
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Having played Vader and Fel together quite a lot, and in place of each other in different lists, I will come in and say that if I have to choose one or the other, I pick Soontir every time. Vader looks tougher on paper. I mean, hell, he has shields! In real play, Vader is so much more fragile. 3 green instead of 4. No autothrusters. Less green on dial means if he does get stressed, he is even worse off. I can't count the number of times that both ships have totally hosed up rolls and almost died right off the bat. The stories of Soontir taking 1 crit and drawing direct hit immediately probably outnumber the stars in the sky. Vader has often taken 2-3 damage in the first pass, and again, on paper that looks much safer. But 1 HP Soontir is dangerous as gently caress, he's lost Stealth Device, and that's it. He still pulls through for me and survives tons of fire. Vader usually gets shot at again and dies. The only thing in the game which Soontir is actually worse against, IMO, is the Vader/gunner Decimator, and that ship isn't enough to make me stop running him. VI Vader consistently fails to hit hard enough to be with the tradeoff for me, and any of the PS 9 options are less appealing simply because I prefer the tank power of Soontir. Hell, the last store championship, I didn't play a single match in which Vader's PS 11 mattered. It was a complete waste for me. I will say that I think Omega Leader is probably the scarier thing to face in the endgame, unless you have Dash on the table still. Not being able to donut hole him and the threat of 4 natural hits means Dash has an okay chance at pulling through if he's lucky. Most other ships can't do that. Edit: I do agree that Whisper and Soontir are basically filling the exact same role as well. I prefer Soontir for the maneuver and durability, but I can see the argument for Whisper. I'm just not willing to pay the extra points yet. Slab Squatthrust fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 23:27
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 FFG please release full repaints and pilot cards of all Rogue Squadron members during the Bacta War, thanks. 
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Feb 12, 2016 23:41
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| # ? May 16, 2024 07:09 |
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Sushi in Yiddish posted:Cool paint schemes but goddamn if a unshielded Tie isn't the worst ship you could have if you had a secret mining base in the asteroids Shields didn't seem to help Star Destroyers in asteroids, though.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:59
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