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Broken Loose posted:Well, that aside, it's very well-known that I believe Race is something like 75% luck. There is some skill involved, and it takes a fair few games to learn those skills (especially considering how much of the deck is deliberately obscured from the player which inhibits the learning process), but by no means is anything but luck a majority deciding factor in winning at Race for the Galaxy. It's absolutely a luck based game! That's why the same guy has won the RFtG WBC championship 5 times in 8 years.
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Feb 12, 2016 17:22
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Oldstench posted:It's absolutely a luck based game! That's why the same guy has won the RFtG WBC championship 5 times in 8 years. He's really, really lucky.
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Feb 12, 2016 17:25
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1455263531 is a pretty difficult seed, though. I've played a few games and keep ending up 1 or 2 VP shy of victory (lost on tiebreakers once...). Red hasn't won yet, but Green and Yellow keep getting a produce/consume engine up just in time.
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Feb 12, 2016 19:11
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Rutibex posted:This can not be true, if there was no skill involved then the AI would not be able to beat me so constantly Did I say there was no skill? Did you even read the loving bit you quoted? Jesus loving Christ.
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Feb 12, 2016 19:56
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Broken Loose posted:Did I say there was no skill? Did you even read the loving bit you quoted? Jesus loving Christ. Broken Loose posted:Well, that aside, it's very well-known that I believe Race is something like 75% luck. There is some skill involved, and it takes a fair few games to learn those skills (especially considering how much of the deck is deliberately obscured from the player which inhibits the learning process), but by no means is anything but luck a majority deciding factor in winning at Race for the Galaxy. His statement wasn't nearly as unreasonable, given what you said, as you make it sound.
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Feb 12, 2016 20:32
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I have no idea how somebody can extrapolate "no" from "minority" so often as they do from my posts. There are no black people in America. None of the mass of the Solar system exists outside of the sun. Codenames consists of 0% of board game sales. Nobody in the world is a Catholic. Homosexuals do not exist.
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Feb 12, 2016 20:38
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Broken Loose posted:I have no idea how somebody can extrapolate "no" from "minority" so often as they do from my posts. There are no black people in America. None of the mass of the Solar system exists outside of the sun. Codenames consists of 0% of board game sales. Nobody in the world is a Catholic. Homosexuals do not exist. But his statement that the AI always wins falsifies your statement that luck dominates over skill. You are just being pedantic about a single word he used while ignoring the thrust of his post.
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Feb 12, 2016 20:46
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lol I love when BL
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Feb 12, 2016 20:52
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:So let's chat about Race for the Galaxy strategy. I can win games versus the AI sometimes, but in the game without expansions I can only ever win with a produce-consume strategy, and it has to be just the perfect one. And I still can't figure out why I lose or win, as in this recent game: Here are some sample games that take slightly different strategies and end up close to the AI. Leeching Red's Settle calls can give you a huge advantage. It's definitely a hard seed - I'm a bit out of practice on base-game-only but the cards drawn don't lend themselves super well to an early engine, which is why I rushed Replicant Robots and trade bonuses, then leeched the constant settling to grab a blind trade on Deserted Alien Colony. Trade League didn't score too many points (5VP) but it let me coast from there to a hard tableau rush that even outsped Red's military blitz.  Broken Loose, the problem is that you're spouting hyperbolic claims that luck is the majority factor. If 51% of the time the luckier player wins that means that win rates shouldn't drop below 1 in 4...and hell, we know that isn't true because better players will handily go on far better streaks assuming they're playing at their level. The fact that there's been a consistent world champion for the better part of the last decade (and while I've never been at the WBC tables I've played at the BGA upper tables a fair bit) means that it's pretty easy to see how much the game rewards better play. There's a claim to be made about luck of the draw in Race (and it's possible to have really, really awful starts), but given exaggerated claims that have nothing to do with the main sources of randomness in the game...it seems reasonable that people are jumping down your throat. Andarel fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 20:55
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Broken Loose posted:I have no idea how somebody can extrapolate "no" from "minority" so often as they do from my posts. There are no black people in America. None of the mass of the Solar system exists outside of the sun. Codenames consists of 0% of board game sales. Nobody in the world is a Catholic. Homosexuals do not exist. I get that you like to be super exact with your phrasing, but getting angry at people who make reasonable extrapolations from that, mainly because most people aren't as exact, is really silly.
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Feb 12, 2016 20:57
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Whoops, they didn't load. Here are the other two games - personally, I thought early on that Replicant Robots > Gem World is the optimal starting strategy since those are both really good earlygame cards and Old Earth synergizes nicely with them...so, here's two similar-but-not-identical strategies that don't use the pivot point of settle-leeching Desterted Alien Colony. The winning strategy appears to be playing Galactic Engineers before DAC and then settle-trading it on a turn you guess a Settle is coming (which is easy because 4p and Red is settling so much), so as not to lose two turns on it being consumed by Old Earth... Try one: more produce-consume skewed.  Try two: more planet-heavy.  All-in-all out of 6 games I won 1, lost by 3 or less points on 3, lost hard on 1 where I tried going military to see if the hand supported it (it didn't), and somewhere in the middle for the very first try. Andarel fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 21:07
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Andarel posted:Hm, Race is one of the few games I can talk about with some authority, though it's been a while since I played super heavily - your problem is pretty easy to see here, though - and it's not got too much to do with 6-devs. Yeah I definitely see what you mean about my tableau in the first game, I think the problem was that I wasn't pulling any good cards I could afford, and I didn't want to sit on my rear end exploring for several turns while missing settles. The analogy to big money in Dominion is an apt one, produce-consume really is the simplest effective strategy but in that case I hadn't got the right base for it and probably should have switched strategies at some point. By contrast, in a 4 player base game last night I won with only Earth's Lost Colony, Tourist World, and a couple production worlds which made for a great early production engine even though it didn't net me any cards per cycle. I'll pore over the games you posted in detail when I'm off work.
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Feb 12, 2016 22:47
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I have been in this thread too long. I swear we had this RFTG argument 4 or 5 years ago. Aren't there a few much better tableau builders around these days anyway?
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Feb 12, 2016 22:55
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:Yeah I definitely see what you mean about my tableau in the first game, I think the problem was that I wasn't pulling any good cards I could afford, and I didn't want to sit on my rear end exploring for several turns while missing settles. The analogy to big money in Dominion is an apt one, produce-consume really is the simplest effective strategy but in that case I hadn't got the right base for it and probably should have switched strategies at some point. By contrast, in a 4 player base game last night I won with only Earth's Lost Colony, Tourist World, and a couple production worlds which made for a great early production engine even though it didn't net me any cards per cycle. Unfortunately (or fortunately, since it's good practice!) that's just a tough game. Surprisingly good starting hand, but the deck wasn't favorable to really good synergy and the opponents also had really strong starts. I managed to get together a good rush (in that game that I won) but it's tricky. I can't seem to post the generic files via attachment - is there a good way to share them? I'd rather not grab free web storage space somewhere but that might be easiest. Aiming to win that first seed consistently would be good practice because of how complex it is.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:04
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dishwasherlove posted:I have been in this thread too long. I swear we had this RFTG argument 4 or 5 years ago. Aren't there a few much better tableau builders around these days anyway? I'm not sure. Race nails both depth and brevity in a way very few games do. There are plenty of fun and interesting games in the genre but few that have anything near Race's longevity.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:10
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It's just Broken Loose and his craziness about Race. As Rutibex implied, the fact the AI is so tough for so many people demonstrates it is principally skill driven rather than luck driven. I've beaten a friend of mine almost every game we've played (literally losing about one in twenty) and she doesn't play that badly, usually within a few points. As far as I know Race is still top dog in its niche, with Roll for the Galaxy (ironically) being probably the next best thing. At least for me, and preferably just with base deck plus Alien Artifacts (sans Orb). That's the best the game had ever been IMO, although I haven't tried the latest expansion.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:22
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Is it ironic or just indicative of good design? And yeah, base + AA no orb is probably the best format, though also haven't tried XI yet.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:26
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It does seem both games have been the consequence of a lot of thoughtful design and heavy play testing. I recall on BGG discussions where the designer weighed in on certain cards in Race and the consequences for changing them, in terms of probability and flow on impacts on major strategies. He seems very across the maths that makes the whole thing work. After many plays I think it has become increasingly apparent how delicate a balancing act the whole thing is to end up with its depth and balance, obviously limited by the relatively short playtime. It's such an elegant game, a true classic like Caylus, Agricola, Twilight Struggle etc - other excellent games will come along but Race will always be playable.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:43
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Okay, dumb question. Is anyone paying David Sirlin his $10/month blood money? And if so, are the Sooper Sekret Development Podcasts actually interesting, or is it just pay-a-tenner-to-listen-to-Davey-suck-himself-off? Cuz as much as I dislike Sirloin as a combative prick, unrepentant plagiarist, and general libertarian wankjob, I gotta admit he's a drat fine developer of games. And supposedly the Patreon podcasts go into the grit of his process for balancing and refining his game or working out specific design kinks. My question is, can he actually communicate his R&D insight, or is it just an hour long advertisement for his products? and while I'm unemployed/working gigs, I kinda wanna sit down and see if I can turn one of my dumb ideas into a semi-functional prototype, and maybe this'll help.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:49
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Destroy everyone who has or supports a Patreon. Goddamn.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:02
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Bottom Liner posted:Destroy everyone who has or supports a Patreon. Goddamn. Porquoi?
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Feb 13, 2016 00:12
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The signal to noise ratio is about 1000x worse than Kickstarter.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:14
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Bottom Liner posted:The signal to noise ratio is about 1000x worse than Kickstarter. On the other hand, it's fine for actual artists trying to make money off of their work without involving major distributors?
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Feb 13, 2016 00:20
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Bottom Liner posted:The signal to noise ratio is about 1000x worse than Kickstarter. Yeah, but if you're paying someone to make podcasts or videos online, you're more likely to actually get what you paid for than a Kickstarter. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Side note: gently caress Sirlin.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:22
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No one who works in trad games is making even remotely close to enough money off Patreon to possibly be mad about.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:34
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People are paying David Sirlin $2,300 a month to do a podcast. That's pretty  considering he's the king of milking new versions and expensive micro expansions for all of his games. He knows exactly how to separate the maximum amount of money from nerds and is running with it.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:44
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Andarel posted:Unfortunately (or fortunately, since it's good practice!) that's just a tough game. Surprisingly good starting hand, but the deck wasn't favorable to really good synergy and the opponents also had really strong starts. I managed to get together a good rush (in that game that I won) but it's tricky. I can't seem to post the generic files via attachment - is there a good way to share them? I'd rather not grab free web storage space somewhere but that might be easiest. Aiming to win that first seed consistently would be good practice because of how complex it is. I should definitely give the seed some more tries -- my habit of restarting if I don't like my opening plays is quite bad. What kind of files are you trying to upload? Text files like XML can just go on pastebin.com.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:47
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I think they're extension less but that seems odd. I'll figure it out when I get back from game night.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:50
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Bottom Liner posted:People are paying David Sirlin $2,300 a month to do a podcast. That's pretty Are you mad about Arab princes propping up lovely free to play games too? People can do what they want with their money.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:55
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Bottom Liner posted:People are paying David Sirlin $2,300 a month to do a podcast. That's pretty Technically, most of them are paying to get playtest prototypes, plus early builds of the Fantasy Strike video game.
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Feb 13, 2016 01:05
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Can any wargoons speak to the COIN system as it relates to tradgames? I've never been a wargamer, but I do love Twilight Struggle and I've heard really good things about the COIN system.GMT's new P500 is a COIN game called Pendragon and it's about the end of Roman Britain. It's kinda tempting me even though I don't play war games.
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Feb 13, 2016 01:22
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I recently introduced some friends to Battlestar Galactica. They REALLY enjoy it, and the expansion discussion has come up. I've poked around on BGG and Reddit, but am curious as to goon opinions (goonpinions?) on Pegasus, Exodus, and Daybreak. If I only purchase one, which should it be and why?
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Feb 13, 2016 01:25
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There's actually a whole huge thread dedicated to just that game in this forum, but I'm confident you'll find the consensus answer to be Pegasus.
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Feb 13, 2016 01:28
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Bottom Liner posted:People are paying David Sirlin $2,300 a month to do a podcast. That's pretty Oh no he releases expansions and updated versions of games. Better burn it all down.
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Feb 13, 2016 01:34
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BlueInkAlchemist posted:I recently introduced some friends to Battlestar Galactica. They REALLY enjoy it, and the expansion discussion has come up. I've poked around on BGG and Reddit, but am curious as to goon opinions (goonpinions?) on Pegasus, Exodus, and Daybreak. If I only purchase one, which should it be and why? General consensus is "not Exodus." Pegasus is the first one and probably easier to put in plus has much-needed errata, so I'd get that first (though I'd house rule or not use Cain, as her OPG is insanely busted). Use the errata stuff they added, ignore the New Caprica rules since it's generally bad, but the Treachery deck and Pegasus itself are fine to use, as are the non-Cain characters. Daybreak isn't a bad option either, since it has a superior Treachery deck to Pegasus and some interesting skill cards (give or take Change of Plans apparently), though it has a lot more weird modules you probably won't use. I'd go Pegasus, but if you really want Daybreak for some reason it's not a terrible option either.
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Feb 13, 2016 02:04
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I'm going to be playing Chaos in the Old World for the first time tomorrow. Are there any newbie traps I should be wary of?
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Feb 13, 2016 04:07
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unpronounceable posted:I'm going to be playing Chaos in the Old World for the first time tomorrow. Are there any newbie traps I should be wary of? Run from Khorne, don't try to fight him.
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Feb 13, 2016 04:09
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Poopy Palpy posted:Run from Khorne, don't try to fight him. If you're Nurgle, grab Provender of Ruin first. The upgrades really aren't all made equal. Also run from Khorne, don't try to fight him.
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Feb 13, 2016 04:13
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Andarel posted:If you're Nurgle, grab Provender of Ruin first. The upgrades really aren't all made equal. Nurgle basically can't win through his dial, but that doesn't mean you should ignore it. That dial is full of VPs, upgrades, and useful poo poo. If you're Tzeentch, don't take a "real" action until you absolutely have to. You have all those 0-Power spells for a reason. Don't let anyone completely overrun any one province with corruption. Try to fight for second, or at least for the Ruiner bonus. The game ramps up really fast once provinces start getting ruined. Like, the game can be over within one or two rounds of the first ruination. Also, run from Khorne, don't try to fight him.
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Feb 13, 2016 04:19
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Counter-point : if you are Khorne, do not try to be fancy. No it's not a trap you really do need to just attack, attack, attack. (I'm really bloodthirsty in most games and when I first played I somehow psyched myself out that it was some kind of double bluff so I was pretty timid at first.)
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Feb 13, 2016 04:24
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