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The Saurus posted:Yeah, who wants to actually debate and discuss different viewpoints and opinions, Is that what your posts on the last page are? Debate? Discussion? quote:*stomps on your sand khrushchyovka at the beach, walks off with hot babe marxistly* Just doesn't look to me like a thorough attempt to support your differing opinion and viewpoint. quote:enforce an SJW echochamber imo quote:that always leads to a diverse and interesting forum AHH!! YES!!!! THE LINE-BY-LINE RESPONSE!! D&D POSTING IS A loving DRUG TO ME!!! swampman fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 23:01
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Yeah I thought marxists were meant to be against identity politics and dumb SJW poo poo too but all the ones I've met recently have hated Bernie Sanders because he doesn't make killing all the Israelis and restoring Palestine his number 1 priority, and say that Muslims are an oppressed class like the working class becuase they occupy a unique place in society, and that the lovely theocratic patriarchal beliefs of Islam only came about due to their oppression by the white man (the only creature capable of evil in this world, despite European imperialism not kicking off until way after Islam had its own imperialist epoch )
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Feb 12, 2016 23:10
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The Saurus posted:Yeah I thought marxists were meant to be against identity politics and dumb SJW poo poo too but all the ones I've met recently have hated Bernie Sanders because he doesn't make killing all the Israelis and restoring Palestine his number 1 priority, and say that Muslims are an oppressed class like the working class becuase they occupy a unique place in society, and that the lovely theocratic patriarchal beliefs of Islam only came about due to their oppression by the white man (the only creature capable of evil in this world, despite European imperialism not kicking off until way after Islam had its own imperialist epoch ) hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Feb 12, 2016 23:14
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The concern about SJW Echochambers arises in the remaining highly intellectual thought castles of the internet http://lurkerfaqs.com/boards/400-current-events/71736922/ quote:Every other class has a professor who gos on about how cops are evil monsters who murder innocent blacks every day. Only escape are the classes with heavy Math/Science involved since they actually teach facts without an agenda shoved down ur throat quote:[–]ComradeHXSteamID: ComradeHX 4 points 8 months ago quote:Captain Who? @CPTWho 31 Mar 2014 quote:gently caress you SJWs!
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Feb 12, 2016 23:19
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The Saurus posted:Yeah I thought marxists were meant to be against identity politics and dumb SJW poo poo too but all the ones I've met recently have hated Bernie Sanders because he doesn't make killing all the Israelis and restoring Palestine his number 1 priority, and say that Muslims are an oppressed class like the working class becuase they occupy a unique place in society, and that the lovely theocratic patriarchal beliefs of Islam only came about due to their oppression by the white man (the only creature capable of evil in this world, despite European imperialism not kicking off until way after Islam had its own imperialist epoch ) Like I said... gibberish that should be deleted. You're not talking to me, or to anyone, you're just... talking. There is nobody who agrees, even loosely, with the opponent you have invented for yourself. Try to paraphrase what I have actually posted so far - that's how to best understand my position. If you can't do that, you will be forever divorced from reality and from real communication with people.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:31
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The Saurus posted:Yeah I thought marxists were meant to be against identity politics and dumb SJW poo poo too but all the ones I've met recently have hated Bernie Sanders because he doesn't make killing all the Israelis and restoring Palestine his number 1 priority, and say that Muslims are an oppressed class like the working class becuase they occupy a unique place in society, and that the lovely theocratic patriarchal beliefs of Islam only came about due to their oppression by the white man (the only creature capable of evil in this world, despite European imperialism not kicking off until way after Islam had its own imperialist epoch ) pro tip, when you debate with someone whose starting position is "lysenkoism is good, the holodomor is a lie and Stalin was a cool dude" you are probably not going to get far.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:31
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:pro tip, when you debate with someone whose starting position is "lysenkoism is good, the holodomor is a lie and Stalin was a cool dude" you are probably not going to get far. More bullshit - I did not call the Holodomor a fiction but rather a complicated tragedy that cannot be blamed on some basic failing of Soviet planning and communism more broadly, but yes, Stalin does kick rear end, I support Stalin Also note that I posted some really great books by Grover Furr that you should check out. You would learn a lot. swampman fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 23:35
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swampman posted:More bullshit - I did not claim to support Lysenko, I did not call the Holodomor a fiction but rather a complicated tragedy that cannot be blamed on some basic failing of Soviet planning and communism more broadly, but yes, Stalin does kick rear end, I support Stalin Also note that I posted some really great books by Grover Furr that you should check out. You would learn a lot. Lysenko made huge contributions to science and to building socialism.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:42
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swampman posted:More bullshit - I did not claim to support Lysenko, I did not call the Holodomor a fiction but rather a complicated tragedy that cannot be blamed on some basic failing of Soviet planning and communism more broadly, but yes, Stalin does kick rear end, I support Stalin Also note that I posted some really great books by Grover Furr that you should check out. You would learn a lot. you know I would but I have all of these James and Walter Kennedy books to get through first so I'll just put those on the end of my reading list
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Feb 12, 2016 23:47
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"just when i thought i was out, they pull me back in" — the swamp manDAD LOST MY IPOD posted:you know I would but I have all of these James and Walter Kennedy books to get through first so I'll just put those on the end of my reading list what a ridiculous equivalency R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Feb 12, 2016 |
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Feb 12, 2016 23:48
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Enjoy posted:Lysenko made huge contributions to science and to building socialism. Possibly, but "Lysenkoism" is used here as a smear, and an irrelevant one - Lysenko had not achieved any political power by the early 30s, and he was kept in power by the traitor Khrushchev, not ousted.
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Feb 12, 2016 23:51
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:you know I would but I have all of these James and Walter Kennedy books to get through first so I'll just put those on the end of my reading list For real, what was the last book you read?
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Feb 13, 2016 00:07
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The Saurus posted:Yeah I thought marxists were meant to be against identity politics and dumb SJW poo poo too but all the ones I've met recently have hated Bernie Sanders because he doesn't make killing all the Israelis and restoring Palestine his number 1 priority Well that's weird because he's the least pro-Israel candidate on either side of the aisle, in spite of also being the only Jewish candidate.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:19
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:pro tip, when you debate with someone whose starting position is "lysenkoism is good, the holodomor is a lie and Stalin was a cool dude" you are probably not going to get far. The Holodomor vs. Holocaust thing is so on-the-nose that it's like God is loving with us.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:24
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thats because it was "intelligently designed", the word was coined decades after the fact precisely to conflate the soviet and nazi regimes
DOCTOR ZIMBARDO fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 00:30
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swampman posted:For real, what was the last book you read? the far side gallery 3, Gary Larson really captures the tragedy and pathos of the human condition
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Feb 13, 2016 00:30
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it might have been 2, it was back in 2009
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Feb 13, 2016 00:31
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For a second I thought the last book I read was Harry Potter, then I realized that was just a dream and my last book was The Prince (Tim Parks translation).
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Feb 13, 2016 00:35
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Jewel Repetition posted:Well that's weird because he's the least pro-Israel candidate on either side of the aisle, in spite of also being the only Jewish candidate. Yeah, they say it's not good enough though. Honestly I think they just want to be contrarian and say how everyone and everything in the democratic system is lovely and only a revolution led by them and their loser friends can make things right in a holy cleansing fire. I wouldn't be surprised if anti-semitism contributed a lot to it. One of the individuals was a palestinian-descent American who drew a comic book of herself as the "arab avenger" a wonderwoman type superhero visiting pain and suffering on the people of Israel and retaking it for the palestinians.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:37
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:thats because it was "intelligently designed", the word was coined decades after the fact precisely to conflate the soviet and nazi regimes That was just to connote the godlike qualities of Stalin.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:38
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The Saurus posted:Yeah, they say it's not good enough though. Honestly I think they just want to be contrarian and say how everyone and everything in the democratic system is lovely and only a revolution led by them and their loser friends can make things right in a holy cleansing fire. I think we're getting off-topic.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:39
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Jewel Repetition posted:I think we're getting off-topic. I don't think this thread was ever on-topic. But everytime I meet a group of self-proclaimed Stalinists they're the type of people I can always visualise muttering away in their corner of the school cafeteria about how the popular jocks and cheerleaders will be up against the wall when the revolution comes.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:44
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The Saurus posted:Yeah, they say it's not good enough though. Honestly I think they just want to be contrarian and say how everyone and everything in the democratic system is lovely and only a revolution led by them and their loser friends can make things right in a holy cleansing fire. yes, positioning oneself against planet earth's overwhelmingly dominant political and economic system with low probability of success is a choice based entirely in narcissism and self-interest
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Feb 13, 2016 00:44
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Homework Explainer posted:yes, positioning oneself against planet earth's overwhelmingly dominant political and economic system with low probability of success is a choice based entirely in narcissism and self-interest It probably is if you only position yourself so that you can talk about how special and informed you are compared to the sheeple, and never make any attempt to actually change things or organize basement stalinists
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Feb 13, 2016 00:47
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The Saurus posted:It probably is if you only position yourself so that you can talk about how special and informed you are compared to the sheeple, and never make any attempt to actually change things or organize you're literally posting in a thread named "vote PSL in 2016", an organization that routinely holds large protests with their affiliate ANSWER, organizes labor, and agitates publicly for change. i just spent $10 to call you a loving idiot, congratulations for sufficiently trolling me.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:56
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The Saurus posted:It probably is if you only position yourself so that you can talk about how special and informed you are compared to the sheeple, quote:and never make any attempt to actually change things or organize quote:Like I said... gibberish that should be deleted. You're not talking to me, or to anyone, you're just... talking. There is nobody who agrees, even loosely, with the opponent you have invented for yourself. Try to paraphrase what I have actually posted so far - that's how to best understand my position. If you can't do that, you will be forever divorced from reality and from real communication with people.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:56
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The Saurus posted:I don't think this thread was ever on-topic. The reality is that you're just evading from being called out as a dumb loving retard, for comparing immigrants to scabs.
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Feb 13, 2016 00:58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0oFEqQbNf0 you bums!
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Feb 13, 2016 01:03
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The reality is that you're just evading from being called out as a dumb loving retard, for comparing immigrants to scabs. Actually i think i made a pretty good case for why they're similar to scabs and I didn't see anyone make a rejoinder. I was just talking about stalinists i've met irl, not casting aspersions on the internet stalinists itt or the PSL
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Feb 13, 2016 01:24
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It's cool that the garbage parties that are somehow even worst than the two major parties get a garbage thread somehow worse than the astoundingly bad threads for major party candidates.
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Feb 13, 2016 01:27
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imo homework explainer is a good poster and its fun reading his posts but thats basically it
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Feb 13, 2016 01:29
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Feb 13, 2016 01:40
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if you'll forgive a trendy question, since we touched on the russian homophobia thing above i'm curious what the marxists here think about the relation of socialist movements to racial/gender/sexual liberation (not using the term 'identity politics' in case someone wants to take it up to refer to particular contemporary currents). like, does anyone hold to the idea that if we can implement socialism these things will disappear of their own accord? are some or all of them mostly seperate struggles? are some or all necessary allied components of a socialist programme and dismissal of them a cause of failure? is the whole question somehow misconceived? as for illegal immigrants, given america's lovely immigration laws if they are scabs they are scabs in the same way as black workers who work outside a white union that refuses them entry - worker solidarity has been broken, but they didn't break it Homework Explainer posted:russia is a gangster oligarch government that's been in freefall since the overthrow of the ussr. antagonizing the united states is a losing battle for putin and as the russian economy approaches crisis, it's an opportunity for the russian people to reestablish socialism. a majority longs for the days of the soviet union and this is the right strategy for the people of russia. it also weakens american imperialism. tactically supporting putin against the imperial bourgeoisie is a win-win. this will, i'm sure, get turned into "you love putin, who is an evil tyrantman. this is in no way an orientalist view of geopolitics. rah rah usa" like in the other thread thanks for this post. most ```anti-imperialist``` stuff i encounter comes across as more a manichean anti-americanism trumpeting about the lion assad and ghouta truth, and is at least as unreadable as the worst d&d jingoism. this makes a case, but, it raises the question what 'tactically supporting' means in practice. if it means the sort of crudely inverted propaganda i mentioned then it seems like the tactical value disappears, as it doesn't meaningfully impede us imperialism but does make the advocates look like stooges of that same 'gangster oligarch' group rather than principled revolutionaries. what form do you think such tactical support should actually take? (i don't consider this a call for watering down a socialist message for mass appeal since russia isn't a socialist government with a claim on solidarity. the support is, as you said, tactical) basically i feel like a lot of people take this logic you've outlined and run straight off a cliff with it. Peel fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 03:39
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Bip Roberts posted:It's cool that the garbage parties that are somehow even worst than the two major parties get a garbage thread somehow worse than the astoundingly bad threads for major party candidates. Lol
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Feb 13, 2016 03:40
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Peel posted:if you'll forgive a trendy question, since we touched on the russian homophobia thing above i'm curious what the marxists here think about the relation of socialist movements to racial/gender/sexual liberation (not using the term 'identity politics' in case someone wants to take it up to refer to particular contemporary currents). like, does anyone hold to the idea that if we can implement socialism these things will disappear of their own accord? are some or all of them mostly seperate struggles? are some or all necessary allied components of a socialist programme and dismissal of them a cause of failure? is the whole question somehow misconceived? I think the imposition of Russian chauvinism in the Soviet Union makes it clear that all forms of chauvinism must be struggled against, even after the revolution, and that economic equality is not a panacea to prejudice and discrimination. I don't think the claim that race, gender, and sex liberation are "allied" components per se, because the destruction of all forms of chauvinism and bigotry are essential to the cultivation of proletarian solidarity. Identity politics are resented insofar as they're co-opted by liberal interests as a fashionable bourgeoise cause celebre to assuage their own guilt. It sinks a lion's share of focus and effort into particular elements of a liberationist struggle, when what's really necessary is to do all things at once. The goal is human liberation, not just the liberation of particular popular segments of society which can garner enough positive attention from moneyed interests. I take exception to the notion that any thread is worse than the Democratic Primary thread.
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Feb 13, 2016 04:05
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I take exception to the notion that any thread is worse than the Democratic Primary thread. Fair point.
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Feb 13, 2016 04:06
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Peel posted:as for illegal immigrants, given america's lovely immigration laws if they are scabs they are scabs in the same way as black workers who work outside a white union that refuses them entry - worker solidarity has been broken, but they didn't break it This really doesn't make any sense at all. Since when were open borders and the right to immigrate to other nations an integral part of socialist philosophy and a precondition for worker solidarity? I can stand in solidarity with international workers without wanting them to benefit capital and damage labour by immigrating in huge numbers.
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Feb 13, 2016 04:14
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Peel posted:if you'll forgive a trendy question, since we touched on the russian homophobia thing above i'm curious what the marxists here think about the relation of socialist movements to racial/gender/sexual liberation (not using the term 'identity politics' in case someone wants to take it up to refer to particular contemporary currents). like, does anyone hold to the idea that if we can implement socialism these things will disappear of their own accord? are some or all of them mostly seperate struggles? are some or all necessary allied components of a socialist programme and dismissal of them a cause of failure? is the whole question somehow misconceived? So on the particular issue of women's rights we tend to find that successful socialist revolutions have been good for women. Some fools might think "if we can implement socialism these things will disappear of their own accord" but they rarely succeed with that attitude; on the contrary it is through fighting sexism, racism, and fascism together that bridges are built between anti-fascist groups of all kinds, and only then is socialism an option thanks to the combined might of the proletariat. That being said, everyone needs to sometimes - when they realize that a Hollywood movie about huge bombs does not have any main characters that fully reflect their life experience - take a breath and remember that the real exploited class are the one-half of the earth's population who are as wealthy as the 62 richest people swampman fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 04:21
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The Saurus posted:This really doesn't make any sense at all. They're not any more a benefit to capital if you unionize them, you loving idiot. You may as well be asking why young adults are integral for worker solidarity. There's always more every year, and they're competing for your job!
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Feb 13, 2016 04:25
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If anything, it's the other way around - people blaming immigrants are scabs, on a global scale. Rather than seeing immigrants as enemies, solidarity must be built with them. Of course the rich use migrant labour to attack the power of labour, but that is an opportunity as much as it is a threat. Re gender stuff, Lenin was a great guy for his time, the growing anti gay stuff in Russia it's a direct consequence of the growth of the orthodox church and reaction in general. They openly poo poo talk the Bolsheviks, so Lenin being pro-gay was probably more a reason to hate both gays and leftists anyway. Intrinsically, there is no reason to assume the projects are related - in reality, that's never the case though, because the same psychology that leads one to reduce inequality in one area is going to recognize them in others, so it's natural that the all the different strains of emancipation can and should work together. So socialism will eventually lead to those issues disappearing, because any future where that actually happens will have a radically different approach to the value of human beings, as it were. Whether socialism leads to a globalist world or a confederation of nationalities is a different question, and probably the more interesting one. Lenin was for confederation, Stalin and Luxemburg were for global, I think. I like the one world order personally, but maybe I'm the rear end in a top hat. rudatron fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 04:35
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