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Epic High Five posted:Almost finished with it now but let me second this article because goddamn this is some fine journalism and writing That doesn't make any sense. How is Global Capitalism hitting the West and different then the East? This is just another rural kook. Maybe a different flavor, but his libertarian streak, and willingness to take arms up to protect his non existant rights to be left alone in the middle of nowhere makes him as dangerous as any of the other refuge militants. That said, he writes a great article, but I really feel like he's exactly the sort of person who should be poked by the government until they drop their delusions.
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Feb 13, 2016 13:53
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OAquinas posted:Bundy's aren't the rich when it comes to ranching. The Bundy Ranch is a paltry 160 acres, and he needs to graze on public land just to support the herd; the land grabs that the article talks about are several orders of magnitude greater. Bundy would find himself out of a job if the federal land was privatized---well, if he wasn't going to spend the rest of his natural life in prison, anyway. Fair enough.
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Feb 13, 2016 14:21
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Skinty McEdger posted:One of the things I took away from the article was the snapshot the author gave of the hierarchy that was in place. You had so many disparate groups, individuals with their own motivations to slightly larger groupings who had their own, with far differing opinions on the cause of matters. The majority of people he spoke to there were "followers" and what I found implicit was that he was not given access to those in the inner circle that were driving this thing. It very much comes across as there were a group of disaffected men of a certain age who found themselves in a situation they didn't understand following the orders of a group that didn't care about them as much as their presence gave them strength. So this really was just the Bundys launching a cult with no real plan beyond enjoying their new power.
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Feb 13, 2016 14:28
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Geostomp posted:So this really was just the Bundys launching a cult with no real plan beyond enjoying their new power. I think it's enormously charitable to suggest that a plan - one that wasn't predicated on everyone else behaving in a fairly specific way - existed, or that there was an actual goal beyond "resist tyranny" in mind.
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Feb 13, 2016 15:17
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Discendo Vox posted:Yes! Whether as a means to self-medication or an interacting cause, marijuana use is often part of the descent pattern for folks who develop schizophrenia, especially males with a genetic predisposition. I know, but it takes a real scold to bother talking about it.
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Feb 13, 2016 16:14
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SedanChair posted:I know, but it takes a real scold to bother talking about it. I hear he may have smoked cigarettes and masturbated to pornographic materials too!
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Feb 13, 2016 16:16
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Mr. Belding posted:They are ethnic Jews who practice Christianity. It's not complicated at all. That's literally not true at all and I'm not sure why you think it is. They still follow Jewish holidays, dress codes, dietary codes, observe shabbat, etc. They don't have any of the cultural trappings of Christianity.
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Feb 13, 2016 16:25
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That article link is timing out for me, anyone else having issues?
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Feb 13, 2016 16:41
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Also I don't think David Fry is ethnically Jewish. He's Japanese.
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Feb 13, 2016 16:42
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kartikeya posted:Incidentally, this is also why I get twitchy and irritable every time people start talking about how the solution to mass shootings is better mental healthcare; while yes, we desperately need better mental healthcare, assuming anyone who goes on a shooting spree is mentally ill is detrimental to just about everyone and only adds to the stigma of 'mentally ill = dangerous crazy person who shouldn't have rights' while doing nothing to actually help deal with spree killings. I think what started that conversation was that a number of spree killers, starting with Virginia Tech, and continuing with Gabby Giffords, were legitimately mentally ill, and theoretically not allowed to have guns anyhow thanks to existing laws, but the databases were not talking to each other. Is every spree killer mentally ill? No. Are a number of them? Yes, enough that it's noticeable that they, in the past, have had a situation that makes them no longer legally allowed to own guns, due to mental illness (as opposed to committing a felony). Messianic Judaism essentially started when a bunch of Russian Jews came over in the 70s, fleeing persecution, and someone in the Southern Baptist area had the idea 'We'll tell them that Jesus is the fulfillment of Judaism, we'll keep everything else the same, call the priest a rabbi, have services on Saturday. They don't know any better!' They didn't, because they'd grown up in a secular society, only knowing they were Jewish, and not really knowing what it meant. They certainly weren't inoculated against high pressure advertising techniques like you get in America. And it worked, and you get Jews for Jesus. And now you may get second or third generation members that are reaching back into evangelical Christianity, promoting Messianic Judaism as 'Christianity how Jesus wanted it to be.' And then it gets weird. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism Warcabbit fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 16:50
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Al! posted:I hear he may have smoked cigarettes and masturbated to pornographic materials too! I was unaware there was a large body of evidence suggesting a causal link between either tobacco use or masturbation during adolescence and the development of schizophrenia.
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Feb 13, 2016 17:18
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"I'm just going to play this any time someone says marijuana isn't dangerous." -guy on NTA stream while Fry was screaming about this being for marijuana.
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Feb 13, 2016 17:26
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Also I don't think David Fry is ethnically Jewish. He's Japanese. Not to mention that ethnic Jews who are Christians have a name: Christians.
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Feb 13, 2016 17:31
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Geostomp posted:So this really was just the Bundys launching a cult with no real plan beyond enjoying their new power. From the article, the implication seemed more like the Bundys were acting to further the land ownership of the LDS (and other moneyed interests), not trying to start their own cult. Epic High Five posted:It's the difference between getting there by soundbytes from Rush and sitting down for years with relevant political philosophy from the past couple hundred years. If he had been in charge of messaging he would've been booted out of the camp, because nothing like, "actually Capitalism and accumulation of wealth at the top is causing most of your problems, and if you succeed in this you'll lose the little that you do have" has no room in their worldview. "But if you read the constitution is says...." I'm not sure I'd call his standpoint fully conservative, it's closer to far-left left libertarian (though really, at the extremes things kinda wrap around). It's kinda like regular libertarian, but holds equal distrust of the free market as it does the government; government should exist, but only be big enough to prevent tyranny of the rich over the poor, in essence.
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Feb 13, 2016 18:24
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Discendo Vox posted:It can be complicated, since ranchers also have to pay highly variable amounts to upkeep the public land that they use. What do you mean? As far as I have ever heard, ranchers just pay a set monthly fee for each mother/calf pair they graze. The BLM is the one mending fences, keeping tanks usable, and whatnot. Edit: Here's a PDF fact sheet from the BLM about permanent range improvements. The BLM is required by law to spend half of the grazing fees it takes in each year on such improvements (new fencing, improved access to water, etc.) It also quote:encourages contributions from operators and other parties who are interested in facilitating improved grazing management or enhancing other multiple uses As far as ongoing upkeep goes, I can't find any evidence that anybody but the BLM is responsible for that. They many times more on it than they take in from fees, too. marshalljim fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 18:29
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Aesop Poprock posted:That's literally not true at all and I'm not sure why you think it is. They still follow Jewish holidays, dress codes, dietary codes, observe shabbat, etc. They don't have any of the cultural trappings of Christianity. Warcabbit posted:I think what started that conversation was that a number of spree killers, starting with Virginia Tech, and continuing with Gabby Giffords, were legitimately mentally ill, and theoretically not allowed to have guns anyhow thanks to existing laws, but the databases were not talking to each other. So, as someone raised jewish (not orthodox) and has an aunt who is a "Jew for Jesus", they're basically Christians who celebrate jewish holidays. She'd come down for passover and Hanukkah, p. Sure she does rosh Hashanah, etc. (Pro tip: if anyone invites you over for passover, don't go. Unless you're shtupping them. Then you kinda have to. Just choke that horseradish down.)
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Feb 13, 2016 19:15
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TapTheForwardAssist posted:With both Bundy Ranch and Malheur, if you wanted to pick the cosplaying apart further, I'd be very curious to know how many of these people, expecting an armed confrontation with the Feds, packed even a basic first-aid kit, with some tourniquets and some tampons for expected bullet injuries, and how many have even the equivalent of "spent a hour watching YouTube" of combat medical training. Packing a field kit doesn't mean much when you're going to get swept away in minutes, or less. I'm sure a few of those crazy assholes are ex-military but those who are also know best how utterly hosed any militia is if it provokes a military response of any kind. Even the National Guard can perform airstrikes and it's not like white wing militia are going to be carrying MANPADS. Mercury_Storm posted:Wow this is even dumber than I initially imagined. I thought that Fiore might have been with the feds from the beginning and had slyly convinced Cliven to come over and help the rest of his yokel haram gang by plane. Also in a lot shorter timeframe so there wasn't days to plan for his arrest. You don't need days to plan an arrest in cases like this. If you're the FBI and you're told "Cliven Bundy is on Flight #### and will land in X hours" you've got more than enough time to send your guys in the area to the airport and/or grab the local PD's SWAT team. It's even better than going after someone on the road because if you're on a plane you have nowhere to run or hide. It's not like Cliven could've gotten tipped off and escaped via the tarmac. Once he passed through that TSA checkpoint he was done and getting on the plane sealed it. By all accounts the feds simply brought enough manpower to make it clear that running away simply wasn't going to work. OAquinas posted:Bundy's aren't the rich when it comes to ranching. The Bundy Ranch is a paltry 160 acres, and he needs to graze on public land just to support the herd; the land grabs that the article talks about are several orders of magnitude greater. Bundy would find himself out of a job if the federal land was privatized---well, if he wasn't going to spend the rest of his natural life in prison, anyway. They might not be rich as far as ranching goes but when you have 500+ cattle you've got more wealth than most people likely will. Also there's the whole "didn't pay a million dollars over the years" thing so he's had all that unpaid tax money to further enrich himself and his family.
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Feb 13, 2016 19:24
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Evil Fluffy posted:white wing militia Please tell me this was intentional, even if it wasn't.
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Feb 13, 2016 19:47
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CroatianAlzheimers posted:Please tell me this was intentional, even if it wasn't. white wing miwitia 
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Feb 13, 2016 19:51
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Warcabbit posted:Messianic Judaism essentially started when a bunch of Russian Jews came over in the 70s, fleeing persecution, and someone in the Southern Baptist area had the idea 'We'll tell them that Jesus is the fulfillment of Judaism, we'll keep everything else the same, call the priest a rabbi, have services on Saturday. They don't know any better!' They didn't, because they'd grown up in a secular society, only knowing they were Jewish, and not really knowing what it meant. Russia was ruled by a party that was officially atheist, but you can't seriously be suggesting that they somehow managed to, like, suck out everyone's knowledge of their own religions through a straw while they slept.
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Feb 13, 2016 20:22
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e: nm
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Feb 13, 2016 20:24
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maybe they just felt bad about getting JESUS (JEEZUS) OUR LORD AND SAVIOR killed
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Feb 13, 2016 20:24
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Evil Fluffy posted:
He has a lot of assets (and I bet most of his net worth is tied up in said assets), but a lot of liabilities too (said million+ fines, supplies to feed his herd and his cows, etc). Those fines are also accumulated over multiple decades. 80,000 per year makes a million dollars in ~12 years. 80K is a decent chunk of change (especially in rural nevada), but when you have 14 kids and 60 grandkids it gets less impressive. Never said he wasn't living comfortably/well off, but the relative term of "Rich" as it applies to the conversation doesn't apply. OAquinas fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 20:33
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:So, as someone raised jewish (not orthodox) and has an aunt who is a "Jew for Jesus", they're basically Christians who celebrate jewish holidays. Oh look it's someone confirming that I was right and you all are wrong. Imagine how shocked I am.
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Feb 13, 2016 20:34
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You know there can be more than one type of messianic Judaism, right?
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Feb 13, 2016 20:40
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I had forgotten that while occupying the reserve, the cavalry (more militia units/oathkeepers) actually DID show up and the Bundies turned them away. That should have been clue number #500412323422 to the people remaining that the glorious Civil War 2 they were hoping for wasn't ever on the table.
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Feb 13, 2016 20:40
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didnt Ammon also get like a half-mil loan from the Small Business Administration?
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Feb 13, 2016 20:43
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rybbyDblqCo
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Feb 13, 2016 20:53
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Mr. Belding posted:Oh look it's someone confirming that I was right and you all are wrong. Imagine how shocked I am. Uh huh
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Feb 13, 2016 20:54
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go3 posted:didnt Ammon also get like a half-mil loan from the Small Business Administration? Yep. http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/ammon_bundy_his_history_and_a.html quote:Bundy shrugs off any criticism over the help. 
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Feb 13, 2016 20:54
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What's going on with this guy's suit/body
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Feb 13, 2016 20:56
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Can we get a recall election up in here?
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Feb 13, 2016 20:58
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CroatianAlzheimers posted:Please tell me this was intentional, even if it wasn't. Yes it was intentional. It's an accurate label for them. SedanChair posted:white wing miwitia Elmer always did shoot Daffy without hesitation while being more cautious about firing on Bugs... 
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Feb 13, 2016 20:58
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HorseLord posted:Russia was ruled by a party that was officially atheist, but you can't seriously be suggesting that they somehow managed to, like, suck out everyone's knowledge of their own religions through a straw while they slept. It actually was more like Fiddler on the Roof, from what I understand. A Fancy 400 lbs posted:You know there can be more than one type of messianic Judaism, right?
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Feb 13, 2016 21:02
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"Why yes I believe that Fincum was clearly surrendering as anyone can see by the way he kept reaching for the gun in his pocket while screaming "shoot me" at Federal agents."
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Feb 13, 2016 21:05
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Skinty McEdger posted:"Why yes I believe that Fincum was clearly surrendering as anyone can see by the way he kept reaching for the gun in his pocket while screaming "shoot me" at Federal agents." Hey, that guy was Ambushed, I should know, I've done ambushes and killed people!! They were out to murder them, which is why everyone else was taken alive! ....wait.
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Feb 13, 2016 21:07
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OAquinas posted:Hey, that guy was Ambushed, I should know, I've done ambushes and killed people!! They were out to murder them, which is why everyone else was taken alive! -an SOF soldier
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Feb 13, 2016 21:09
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marshalljim posted:What do you mean? As far as I have ever heard, ranchers just pay a set monthly fee for each mother/calf pair they graze. The BLM is the one mending fences, keeping tanks usable, and whatnot.  most of the non-nut press coverage says that specific agreements between BLM and users tend to require the users to pay for a variety of forms of upkeep.
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Feb 13, 2016 21:09
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Bobby Digital posted:I thought they called themselves "patriot" That ain't Valley Forge
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Feb 13, 2016 21:11
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:
different demographics, different business mix, different tax base, lower population density, different wealth base, different wealth concentration, etc etc etc. Lost Springs, Wyoming and Manhattan, New York aren't that much alike.
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Feb 13, 2016 21:12
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