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Day 9 was starting and I had to do something so I hit the PS home button (like every other game I own) and when I came back day 15 was starting. I guess I have to start the whole game over now to get back to where I was. Speed runners take note!
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Feb 13, 2016 20:33
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Toady posted:I suppose it depends on why you think it's flat. Some people are mad they didn't find Area 51, but I thought it was fascinating seeing Henry and Delilah act paranoid, how they supported and suspected each other, and how they reacted to the truth. I guess because the game started off so grounded and was clearly being ambiguous about whether or not there really was an experiment, the ending was unsurprising (and sad--stepping over the boy's shriveled corpse, I felt so sorry for him). Someone said it better earlier, but the conspiracy side of the plot is just a bait and switch. I think the game expected me to care way more about Ned and Brian than I did, and I think that's on them since those characters were basically a couple of throw away lines until all of a sudden they are not. I also wasn't a fan of how the mysterious teenage girls thing was resolved with another blurb of dialog. I didn't need it to be a grand conspiracy, but that's what they were setting up and if the reveal is going to be "there was no big conspiracy" it should at least be interesting and the antagonist's motivations should make some sort of sense. The ending in regard to Henry and Delilah left me somewhat unsatisfied but I wouldn't call it bad because that felt like what the game intended and it worked on some level. People who liked the ending seem to think that everyone who didn't was expecting some epic twist, when really my problem with it is that there was a twist and it was a bad one I don't know if the price thing was even directed at me, but I never complained about the price. 20 bux is a fine asking price for it. ultimateforce posted:Day 9 was starting and I had to do something so I hit the PS home button (like every other game I own) and when I came back day 15 was starting. I guess I have to start the whole game over now to get back to where I was. iirc day 9 is just a short dialog segment and then it skips to 15. I would think hitting ps would pause it though but maybe not? veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 13, 2016 |
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Feb 13, 2016 20:43
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Steve2911 posted:I just finished it and I totally disagree with this. The 'main plot' is resolved, and then the game gives you a good 20-30 minutes to reflect and discuss it before the credits roll. It feels really natural. 20-30 minutes? I wake up the last day and Delilah says "Hey, the helicopters are coming, we're done here, get up to my station. Oh wait, I hear you're detecting a signal, check that out." Then I check out the signal and find out Ned did everything and go into his creepy hideaway. The entire time you're in there, she says "Ok, that's cool but we can't do anything about that, get up to my station already". So I assume you could spend half an hour farting around in there with all the smoke and you could even spend 3 hours doing whatever. My point is that she keeps rushing you to get to her lookout and then the game just ends. They probably would have done better if you just happen upon his hide out and you find everything out. Then give some time to wind things down. Then once they wind down from the climax, then the fire can get out of control and it can be time to leave.
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Feb 13, 2016 21:44
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I loved this game a lot. The ending is flat if you're expecting something from the plot. Or, if you're expecting to get closure to the two main characters' relationship. But if you look past these two expectations and see that this is a "slice of life" tale of two people then, the game becomes much better in my eyes. These people happen to meet for a summer and have a friendly/flirtatious relationship. Encountered some weird stuff but then it all came to an end and they moved on. But what happened during that time will change them for the rest of their lives and that is why this story is worth telling and experiencing. I also tried to put my thoughts about this game in a video review here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp6jK4Lpu90 PS. I'm new here, so if I did something wrong then please let me know. Thanks
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Feb 13, 2016 21:47
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Cojawfee posted:20-30 minutes? I wake up the last day and Delilah says "Hey, the helicopters are coming, we're done here, get up to my station. Oh wait, I hear you're detecting a signal, check that out." Then I check out the signal and find out Ned did everything and go into his creepy hideaway. The entire time you're in there, she says "Ok, that's cool but we can't do anything about that, get up to my station already". So I assume you could spend half an hour farting around in there with all the smoke and you could even spend 3 hours doing whatever. My point is that she keeps rushing you to get to her lookout and then the game just ends. They probably would have done better if you just happen upon his hide out and you find everything out. Then give some time to wind things down. Then once they wind down from the climax, then the fire can get out of control and it can be time to leave. The conversation you have in her tower is the ending. 
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Feb 13, 2016 21:49
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I just finished the game, can someone explain to me how did the kid's father build such a research and eavesdropping site? because from his last casette he tells you he's the one that's been spying you but where did he get those comm towers, fences, etc.?
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Feb 13, 2016 23:39
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Cable posted:I just finished the game, can someone explain to me how did the kid's father build such a research and eavesdropping site? because from his last casette he tells you he's the one that's been spying you but where did he get those comm towers, fences, etc.? That was a government research facility. They were just researching standard nature poo poo and tracking animals, but they were gone for the summer (or a long while at least) so he took all their poo poo.
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Feb 13, 2016 23:42
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He didn't set any of that stuff up as far as I can tell. He was just using it. I believe it was there to do some normal testing and he was using their stuff to spy on Hank and Delilah while the team was away. Why they would hide all of that stuff from the tower rangers and set up mysterious fences is beyond any explanation I have, other than the end game being plot hole city
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Feb 13, 2016 23:44
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NESguerilla posted:He didn't set any of that stuff up as far as I can tell. He was just using it. I believe it was there to do some normal testing and he was using their stuff to spy on Hank and Delilah while the team was away. Why they would hide all of that stuff from the tower rangers and set up mysterious fences is beyond any explanation I have, other than the end game being plot hole city They weren't hiding it? Delilah just didn't know about it 'cause she doesn't know about a lot of stuff. I got the impression that she genuinely barely ever leaves her tower. I love the way the game has all of the stuff that would require character models and animation happen off camera, giving you the sense that loads of stuff is happening just around the corner that you're too late for. It can be super creepy. It's a good example of limitations making things cooler. Another recent-ish game gave me the exact same sensation for the same reasons, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was.
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Feb 13, 2016 23:49
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NESguerilla posted:He didn't set any of that stuff up as far as I can tell. He was just using it. I believe it was there to do some normal testing and he was using their stuff to spy on Hank and Delilah while the team was away. Why they would hide all of that stuff from the tower rangers and set up mysterious fences is beyond any explanation I have, other than the end game being plot hole city The irony is that he stole their poo poo regardless but it would be dumb for them to leave all their equipment not behind a locked gate
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Feb 13, 2016 23:51
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NESguerilla posted:He didn't set any of that stuff up as far as I can tell. He was just using it. I believe it was there to do some normal testing and he was using their stuff to spy on Hank and Delilah while the team was away. Why they would hide all of that stuff from the tower rangers and set up mysterious fences is beyond any explanation I have, other than the end game being plot hole city You can get Delilah to remember she WAS told about the facility, she's just an alcoholic. It's for tracking deer/elk. You can also find a dead elk with a tracking collar, and if you took the other collar can realize it was a tracking site for deer/elk well before Ned reveals it. This causes the last few days to instead be more ruminations/reflections then actual conspiracy/fear.
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Feb 13, 2016 23:53
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So "I didn't read a thing" = "Game has gaping plot holes" There's also a dialogue option where Delilah looks through her notes and brings up that she has documentation on the Wapati Station. There's also a fun optional thing with the wave receiver and finding an elk.
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Feb 13, 2016 23:53
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LordPants posted:The irony is that he stole their poo poo regardless but it would be dumb for them to leave all their equipment not behind a locked gate tbf their main form of security was a chain link fence with no barbed wire and a sign saying "hey dont come in here please" so I dont think locking the gate would have done much. If Henry wasnt such a fatass I'm sure you wouldnt even need the axe.
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Feb 13, 2016 23:56
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CharlestonJew posted:tbf their main form of security was a chain link fence with no barbed wire and a sign saying "hey dont come in here please" so I dont think locking the gate would have done much. If Henry wasnt such a fatass I'm sure you wouldnt even need the axe. We had a fat guy tries to climb fence interaction in there for a while but it was kind of a mood killer. It got replaced with the bee in the box which I majorly prefer.
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Feb 13, 2016 23:59
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Steve2911 posted:The conversation you have in her tower is the ending. And? The big climax of the game is finding out that Ned did everything. There's no wind down from that. You just immediately get told to get out and go to her lookout to end the game. The ending is abrupt. I've been saying this the whole time, I don't know why you can't understand that.
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Feb 14, 2016 00:03
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ja2ke posted:We had a fat guy tries to climb fence interaction in there for a while but it was kind of a mood killer. It got replaced with the bee in the box which I majorly prefer. That also lead to one of Delilah's best parts. The confused mild concern got an actual laugh from me.
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Feb 14, 2016 00:04
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ja2ke posted:We had a fat guy tries to climb fence interaction in there for a while but it was kind of a mood killer. It got replaced with the bee in the box which I majorly prefer. Great, another thing to add to the list to track down for future playthroughs. I don't think everyone has clocked the whole 'scavenger hunt replayability' aspect yet, which is a shame.
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Feb 14, 2016 00:05
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Cojawfee posted:And? The big climax of the game is finding out that Ned did everything. There's no wind down from that. You just immediately get told to get out and go to her lookout to end the game. The ending is abrupt. I've been saying this the whole time, I don't know why you can't understand that. You realise that this is traditionally what is meant by a 'climax' in a story, right?
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Feb 14, 2016 00:07
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Phone posted:So "I didn't read a thing" = "Game has gaping plot holes" I didn't run into that option, but I'll admit gaping plot holes was a huge over statement on my part and it's more explainable than I was giving credit.
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Feb 14, 2016 00:10
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"There was no climax, we just found out the identity of the antagonist and his motovations, and brought closure to the relationship between the two main characters"
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Feb 14, 2016 00:11
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Cojawfee posted:And? The big climax of the game is finding out that Ned did everything. There's no wind down from that. You just immediately get told to get out and go to her lookout to end the game. The ending is abrupt. I've been saying this the whole time, I don't know why you can't understand that. I just don't get what point you're trying to make. It's not like things aren't set up, it's not like the relevant plot threads aren't resolved and it's not like the game doesn't give you time and dialogue to gradually wrap things up. Going to the other lookout and speaking to Delilah one last time is the wind down. Hell, you could say that being shown Ned's hideout is part of the wind down, since it's basically a nice lump of closure.
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Feb 14, 2016 00:11
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I feel like people who complain about the nature of the ending are people who would also be unhappy with the conclusion of any traditional whodunit plotline, where the killer is unmasked as the unassuming character that just bumbled along in the background. The artistry is in the way it was hiding in plain sight all along.
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Feb 14, 2016 00:36
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Steve2911 posted:I just don't get what point you're trying to make. It's not like things aren't set up, it's not like the relevant plot threads aren't resolved and it's not like the game doesn't give you time and dialogue to gradually wrap things up. Going to the other lookout and speaking to Delilah one last time is the wind down. Hell, you could say that being shown Ned's hideout is part of the wind down, since it's basically a nice lump of closure. Let me take you through the elements of plot as described by Gustav Freytag in the 1880s. The first part is exposition. You get to know the characters and their backgrounds and the first bit of the plot is revealed. Then you have the rising action. The story moves from the first plot point through conflicts to get to the climax. At the climax, everything comes to a head and the hero either succeeds or fails at his task. After the climax is the falling action, where we see the effects of the story and wind everything down towards the end. Then you have the resolution where any loose ends are tied up and the story finally ends. Firewatch pretty much has two plot lines that eventually meet. The exposition is getting to the lookout and learning bout Delilah. You go confront the campers. You get into the rising action when Ned tries to scare off the campers and blame it on you. He also sabotages the phone lines. After fixing the phone lines you learn about the Goodwins and how they mysteriously left. You get the second plot going when Ned tries to make it look like a secret government site is spying on you. Everything you do after this leads towards the climax. The climax of the first plot line happens when you find Brian's body. You leave the cave, tell Delilah and that plot goes into its falling action. You discuss with everything that happened and what not and that plot line is resolved. Later, you get to the climax of the second story line. You get led to Ned's hideout and you find out there was no conspiracy, it was all Ned. He faked everything. This is clearly the main climax. While the Brian thing is crazy, it was obviously a side story. This conspiracy plot line has no falling action. Delilah says "Wow, that's crazy. Anyway, get to my lookout now. Also, I'm leaving you here." That plot just ends with a wet fart. Then you finally get to her lookout and she tells you on the radio "Welp, I'm leaving and not coming back, you should do the same thing. Bye forever." It just abruptly ends.
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Feb 14, 2016 00:43
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The ending of the game is realizing that you are Ned. Just like Ned, you ran away from life to run around in the forest instead of facing the consequences of your lack of care for Julia. The game has two actual plot threads: the building relationship between you and Delilah and the mystery that eventually becomes about Ned and his son. They meet when you listen to the audio tape from Ned and realize that he's just been running away. He's just been escaping into books--and when he ran out of those, your conversations with Delilah. They meet when you realize that the forest and Delilah have been your escape. The ending conversation is about the choice to continue to run away or face what needs to be faced. This is elevated by the fact that you don't actually have to get in the helicopter. You can actually wait and burn with the forest just like Ned did. It's not an abrupt ending. It ends either on catharsis or purposeful lack of catharsis.
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Feb 14, 2016 02:21
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There's no way to make this sound non-condescending or smug, but I honestly wonder how many people who really disliked the ending have read a large and broad range of novels, from classic fiction to modern airport novels. I only mention it because there seems to be a disconnect regarding the ending between two fairly distinct groups and it would be interesting to know if there's a definite reason for that. It seems like most people who disliked it were expecting something "bigger" or "grander" or "more exciting", so it makes me wonder why that is, since the rest of the game was fairly "mundane". I would guess that experiencing a broader range of fiction and in different mediums would better prepare someone for the ending we got, and would leave the player feeling less disappointed or more satisfied than a player who was more used to typical video game or movie climaxes. That's the most obvious conclusion I can come up with, anyway, assuming that there's a fairly common underlying reason among the people who didn't like the conclusion. Edit: I'm not referring to anyone, specifically, with this. It's a general thought based on the number of people in this thread and the Steam forums/reviews who have lamented the lack of "excitement" in the ending, particularly the Steam forums/reviews. Mr Scumbag fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 02:50
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I think NESguerilla made a good point as to why I didn't like the ending, beyond it just being so mundane. If Ned and his son had been a thing that was constantly being brought up from the beginning instead of a snippit here and there, I'd probably have been way more invested in it. But instead that mostly all happens later and by that point they're kind of rushing you through it and you aren't really given enough time to process who Ned is and who his son is, and the body being found in the cave doesn't end up being nearly as "oh my god..." as it should be. So on top of not liking the Henry and Delilah stuff at the end, the Ned stuff just ends up feeling like "uh okay?" cause we're given really no time to care about Ned and his son. It would've been better to get us better invested in that story.
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Feb 14, 2016 03:00
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Just because the ending was deliberately muted, that doesn't make it a good choice. Firewatch got me pretty invested in a story then wrapped it all up with with everyone pretty much everyone involved going "Oh well that sucks" and then leaving. As endings go, not great. You can say that was intentional, but that doesn't really make it any better.
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Feb 14, 2016 03:09
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Why does that make it a bad choice though? e: like I can get behind the people saying they found the ending unsatisfying, but there's a bunch of people saying the ending was flat out bad and I'm just not seeing that. Vando fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 03:17
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Vando posted:Why does that make it a bad choice though? That's my thought. It seems to come down to expectations and the belief that if your expectations aren't met, then it makes something bad. I don't think that follows, though. Fair enough if it just means you don't like it, I don't think anyone can argue against that, but trying to justify it as "bad" in general or "objectively" is taking it too far, in my opinion.
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Feb 14, 2016 03:22
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At the same time, I'm not trying to argue that it's objectively good either. I liked it, I can see why others liked it, I can see why some might not, but that doesn't imply disastrous flaws in the game or anything.
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Feb 14, 2016 03:25
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Macaluso posted:I think NESguerilla made a good point as to why I didn't like the ending, beyond it just being so mundane. If Ned and his son had been a thing that was constantly being brought up from the beginning instead of a snippit here and there, I'd probably have been way more invested in it. But instead that mostly all happens later and by that point they're kind of rushing you through it and you aren't really given enough time to process who Ned is and who his son is, and the body being found in the cave doesn't end up being nearly as "oh my god..." as it should be. So on top of not liking the Henry and Delilah stuff at the end, the Ned stuff just ends up feeling like "uh okay?" cause we're given really no time to care about Ned and his son. It would've been better to get us better invested in that story. This is something I think I was trying to bring up in my rant. Ned and Brian are treated as a minor side story. The overall story is portrayed as being Henry and Delilah getting to know each other and then oh no, it seems as if someone is spying on them. Near the end of the game, Ned and Brian go from a couple people that were there a few years ago but then left to a major part of the plot. You go through the cave and then find the fort. All of a sudden Delilah opens up about Brian and you're supposed to care about what happened to him. Then a few minutes later you find his dead body. From here on out, it's all about Ned and Brian. Henry and Delilah's relationship kind of drops to the back burner until at the end she finally says she doesn't want to ever meet you.
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Feb 14, 2016 03:32
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Mr Scumbag posted:There's no way to make this sound non-condescending or smug, but I honestly wonder how many people who really disliked the ending have read a large and broad range of novels, from classic fiction to modern airport novels. There are posts itt comparing the game with the Scooby-Doo show 
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Feb 14, 2016 03:33
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Mr Scumbag posted:There's no way to make this sound non-condescending or smug, but I honestly wonder how many people who really disliked the ending have read a large and broad range of novels, from classic fiction to modern airport novels. I don't know. I've read Tom Clancy, Larry Bonds, Kafka, Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Pynchon, and some DFW and I wasn't really satisfied. Existentialists like having big crises. Eskaton fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 03:35
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xf86enodev posted:There are posts itt comparing the game with the Scooby-Doo show Well only one part of the game. Specifically the part of it that is like the end of a scooby doo episode. edit: I've read Harry Potter, The Shining and one of the books Tim Allen wrote so I know a thing or two about storytelling Macaluso fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 03:35
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Cojawfee posted:This is something I think I was trying to bring up in my rant. Ned and Brian are treated as a minor side story. The overall story is portrayed as being Henry and Delilah getting to know each other and then oh no, it seems as if someone is spying on them. Near the end of the game, Ned and Brian go from a couple people that were there a few years ago but then left to a major part of the plot. You go through the cave and then find the fort. All of a sudden Delilah opens up about Brian and you're supposed to care about what happened to him. Then a few minutes later you find his dead body. From here on out, it's all about Ned and Brian. Henry and Delilah's relationship kind of drops to the back burner until at the end she finally says she doesn't want to ever meet you. I don't know if you're arguing that as a bad thing or not but I don't see it as one. It's a realistic approach. Those two don't mean ANYTHING to you, just Delilah. When they finally jump into view it's supposed to be a sudden shock that overtakes everything because that's what they do. They meant a lot to her so she focuses on them. They mean next to nothing to you until you OHMYGOD find Brian's body and discover it was Ned loving with you. Then at the end when they both realize they really don't belong there since they're running away from their problems AND she's shaken up about someone who meant something to her being dead it's an obvious conclusion that both of you need to go home and take a breather and sort yourselves out. Macaluso posted:Well only one part of the game. Specifically the part of it that is like the end of a scooby doo episode. Then you probably know also about how the universe works on a level most of us cannot comprehend.
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Feb 14, 2016 03:39
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Hey do not besmirch the reputation of Never Stand Next To A Naked Man E or what ever it is called
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Feb 14, 2016 03:43
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I did a second playthrough and tried a different approach: I didn't report the cave, I didn't even look at the locked gate when I went through the cave, and I didn't report that I saw someone on the way back to the tower. Knowing the ending I did everything I could to avoid mentioning the cave or anything about the guy on the trail. What happens there is Ned's motivations seem a lot more psychotic and violent - there's no reason for him to be spooked other than the fact that there are a few people in the general vicinity. He's basically doing all of this because someone briefly took a shortcut through a cave and decided it was nothing of note. Also, people call everything "wet fart" so much now that everything in their lives is described as a wet fart, so wet farts are totally normal everyday things and talking about them just means whatever happened was regular and routine. So I'm glad you people enjoyed your totally normal standard ending.
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Feb 14, 2016 04:02
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It's a bad ending. Give me the option to set a trap for Ned, and then I'll hold him with one arm above the hole in the cave where Bryan fell, and then Delilah will say "DO IT IDIOT" and you get a prompt where you can throw Ned down the hole or not. You can drop him down to join his son in the cave tomb, or you can redeem Ned and then he will go to Australia and marry Julia.
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Feb 14, 2016 04:10
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QUEEN CAUCUS posted:It's a bad ending. Give me the option to set a trap for Ned, and then I'll hold him with one arm above the hole in the cave where Bryan fell, and then Delilah will say "DO IT IDIOT" and you get a prompt where you can throw Ned down the hole or not. You can drop him down to join his son in the cave tomb, or you can redeem Ned and then he will go to Australia and marry Julia. This please.
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Feb 14, 2016 04:12
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QUEEN CAUCUS posted:It's a bad ending. Give me the option to set a trap for Ned, and then I'll hold him with one arm above the hole in the cave where Bryan fell, and then Delilah will say "DO IT IDIOT" and you get a prompt where you can throw Ned down the hole or not. You can drop him down to join his son in the cave tomb, or you can redeem Ned and then he will go to Australia and marry Julia. This sounds great, let me have that But do all this while maintaining the game's thing where you don't see anyone else's face at any point
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Feb 14, 2016 04:13
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