|
The Belgian posted:Claiming atheism is the default as some obvious thing is utter insanity as religion has been with us since the beginning of humanity or at least as far as we can trace back information. Helps that religion is a hopelessly vaguely defined concept that can account for a huge variety of beliefs.
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 00:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 14:47 |
|
|
khwarezm posted:Helps that religion is a hopelessly vaguely defined concept that can account for a huge variety of beliefs. Yes? Are you agreeing with me?
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 00:56
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:Claiming atheism is the default as some obvious thing is utter insanity as religion has been with us since the beginning of humanity or at least as far as we can trace back information. Well sure if you think 'beginning of humanity' in a Creationist sense is actually the case or have such a super-wide, nebulous definition of religion as to basically smear it to encompass nearly every human action ever. The Belgian posted:Yes? Are you agreeing with me? Well in that case you can induce 'religion' into pigeons by behavioral conditioning
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:03
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:Yes? Are you agreeing with me? Atheism in its most textbook form specifically means that we don't believe in any kind of god. A religion doesn't necessarily need to have any gods and runs the gamet of beliefs ranging from stuff like how to live a good moral life to explaining the nature of reality.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:07
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:Claiming atheism is the default as some obvious thing is utter insanity as religion has been with us since the beginning of humanity or at least as far as we can trace back information. And? That religion is pervasive and has existed in some form or another means absolutely nothing in this case. It still needs to be taught.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:07
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:And? That religion is pervasive and has existed in some form or another means absolutely nothing in this case. It still needs to be taught. I see no reason why a religion should be taught. It seems perfectly plausible to me that religion sponatneously arises as a group of people left alone interpret the world around them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:12
|
|
|
khwarezm posted:Atheism in its most textbook form specifically means that we don't believe in any kind of god. What's an example of a religion without gods or similar divine beings?
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:15
|
|
|
^^^^^^ Some forms of Buddhism, ancestor worship, ect. The Belgian posted:I see no reason why a religion should be taught. It seems perfectly plausible to me that religion sponatneously arises as a group of people left alone interpret the world around them. Yes, ignorant people search for answers. Those answers do not necessitate a god, and until they come up with that belief the individual is an atheist. No six-year old believes in a god without someone explaining to them that they should.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:18
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Yes, ignorant people search for answers. Those answers do not necessitate a god, and until they come up with that belief the individual is an atheist. No six-year old believes in a god without someone explaining to them that they should. Again, before they come up with a belief, they're in a position of ignorance wrt the belief but that just leads us to our earlier argument.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:22
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:What's an example of a religion without gods or similar divine beings? Depends, Confucionism, Buddhism and even Hinduism all have certain forms that can be considered non-theistic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:Again, before they come up with a belief, they're in a position of ignorance wrt the belief but that just leads us to our earlier argument. There wasn't an earlier argument. There was you not understanding how words and simple concepts work.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:28
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:I see no reason why a religion should be taught. Agreed.png The Belgian posted:Again, before they come up with a belief, they're in a position of ignorance wrt the belief but that just leads us to our earlier argument. Right, and still, ignorance of negates any positive belief in. You can't possibly believe in the invisible fire bees that live in my microwave until I just mention them. Their bastards.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:29
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:There wasn't an earlier argument. There was you not understanding how words and simple concepts work. no you!!
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:30
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:no you!! No, seriously, unless you can tell me what positive belief you have you don't have one. Ignores means you can't have a possible positive belief by definition.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:34
|
|
|
Berk Berkly posted:Right, and still, ignorance of negates any positive belief in.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:35
|
|
|
Well I think technically, being ignorant removes the dichotomy between belief and non-belief - you could call such a state atheism, I guess, but it doesn't really matter. The real argument of which is the 'default' seems to stem from which side wants to say what people 'essentially' are, to which I think the correct answer is 'neither'. People create religion, but that's not necessarily because of a god neural circuit in the brain (that has to be suppressed to be atheist), but because religion is a way of socially interacting with nature, and human beings are social animals. But that doesn't mean that religion is kind of the default either, it's just trying something out, which may then fail or succeed in becoming a part of your personality, depending on whether or not it is encouraged. People start of crawling at a young age before they walk, that doesn't mean they're inherently crawlers!les fleurs du mall posted:It seems you guys are trying to derail a bit here so if I can I'd like to draw your attention back to the original problem, which is determining whether atheism is actually something you choose, or something that is an inescapable conclusion of certain conditions. I'm asking then if it's like homosexuality. rudatron fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Feb 14, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:40
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:Yes, but not in the sense of rejecting belief That's not what atheism is. This has been explained to you. Edit: The Belgian posted:Even the very broad definition of atheism involves rejection of belief even if it does not involve active disbelief. No, it doesn't. Again, this has been explained to you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 01:54
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:That's not what atheism is. This has been explained to you. You brought up some dictionary's definition of atheism, which is in disagreement with common usage. To name one person for instance, Bertrand Russel uses the term 'atheism' for actively believes doesn not exist. If you want to play the game of quoting dictionaries/whatever, wikipedia says quote:Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[3][4][5] (and wikipedia at least links to actual good sources sometimes instead of dictionaries that just make whatever up) The Belgian fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Feb 14, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 02:04
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:Yes, but not in the sense of rejecting belief but in the sense of being ignorant of belief. Even the very broad definition of atheism involves rejection of belief even if it does not involve active disbelief. A Priori rejection isn't necessary for non-belief. You can't have ever possibly rejected the notion of the oversized ornery ocelot occupying my oven. But I'm pretty certain you never believed(and still don't). Please don't let him out, he's pissed. rudatron posted:To remind you: all beliefs are choices... Are they? Can you even begin to choose to belief you exist or does that just come with self-awareness by default? computer parts posted:Another telling sign of atheism not being the "default" is that people take offense when I describe the group. Well you did just conflate atheism with both racism and something something adolescent rebellion. Why stop there? We have many hats to go through before we get to the bottom of this Euphoria(it's fedoras all the way down(they're actually trilbies)). Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Feb 14, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 02:23
|
|
|
Oh boy a bunch of posts discarding inconvenient bits of the bible or dismissing them as metaphors, but only the silly parts, the rest is still rock solid. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Your shrimp dinner, double cheeseburger, and poly cotton blend shirt will be plunging you directly into the fires of hell. Blasphemers, heretics, and idolators the lot of you. Boohoo atheists on the internet are mean.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 02:53
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:Claiming atheism is the default as some obvious thing is utter insanity as religion has been with us since the beginning of humanity or at least as far as we can trace back information. Atheism is the default when you are reared basking in the rays of Science.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 03:06
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Atheism is the default when you are reared basking in the rays of Science. Global Warming is actually the Fires of Hell rising to the surface of the Earth fed by our sinfully secular hubris. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Feb 14, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 03:16
|
|
|
Man, atheists on the internet sure are bitter souls. Please all, come back to this discussion once you've excited your pineal gland at least couple times, watched a few BBC nature documentaries (or Cosmos) while stoned, or experienced even a single *profound moment* that felt almost too fortuitous to be likely, and then come back here and tells us what you think and feel about the interconnectedness of nature and life and existence on Earth. Or (even better) let's breathe in slow, relax and let it go with the flow. You hold the key to Love and Fear in your mind at all times, my friends, so do try to be mindful of the ways in which you're turning it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 03:33
|
|
|
Attenborough documentaries and Cosmos are great. Attenborough has something relevant to say about the subject too! "My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [I ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPfvtoIcTm8 West Virginia just made sure good Christians don't have to bake wedding cakes for gay people or sell birth control to women who dare indulge in the devil's exercise out of wedlock. Texas is sabotaging women's reproductive health via legislation but by all means let's beat off about how none of this is related to religion because religion and god make people feel good and internet atheists are just so mean.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 03:51
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:You brought up some dictionary's definition of atheism, which is in disagreement with common usage. To name one person for instance, Bertrand Russel uses the term 'atheism' for actively believes doesn not exist. If you want to play the game of quoting dictionaries/whatever, wikipedia says You are real fuckin' salty that people don't use the same definition as you. Like you're actually mad at a dictionary. That's just sad.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 03:54
|
|
|
Dinosaurmageddon posted:Man, atheists on the internet sure are Bitter Souls. I'm so tired of 3rd Person console RPGs. quote:
Agreed. The universe is amazing, humbling experience because it isn't a woo-infested supernatural fartdream. Reality would be tiny, petty, and lame place to be if that bullshit was even remotely the case.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 03:57
|
|
|
rudatron posted:Re BrandorKP, in pure consequential terms, there is no difference in destination, but the eternal question is always which direction, and that is not so easily divorced from your frame of reference. Or which direction is not so easily divorced from who we each are (as opposed to just the frames of reference we each use) . Which makes it even more of a problem. rudatron posted:So don't let my words tickle your, uh, theological angst you have going. Eh don't worry about that. I enjoy this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 04:13
|
|
|
Berk Berkly posted:I'm so tired of 3rd Person console RPGs. Looks like someone hasn't been praising the sun enough.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 04:17
|
|
|
Dinosaurmageddon posted:Man, atheists on the internet sure are bitter souls. Yah, such fools who don't find beauty in basking in the love of the lord and doing him service in every way while not secretly being a total hypocrite. See that light shining through the clouds in the shape of a cross because god wills it? Glory be..
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 04:27
|
|
|
Who What Now posted:Looks like someone hasn't been praising the sun enough.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 05:18
|
|
|
From a subjective perspective, were I to go to a church intending to believe in a religion, attend regularly, observe rituals, everything (And I did for many years) I would still be unable to believe in a God- always doubting, perhaps lying to myself, but I have passed the critical point where the cognitive dissonance is just too much and I can't, no matter what I want, go back. Now, I want to believe in something cool like reincarnation. I want to follow ancient teachings and observe holidays as having more significance than a consumer feeding frenzy, however I just can't. I can't believe in this stuff anymore. It makes me sad in some ways, but also glad to be free of any mind-slavery that goes on in some religions. On the broader scale, you have Atheism- defined as non-belief in any diety- this is a small part of the 'supernatural' world that humans have constructed throughout our history. But that's not a fluid definition. The world of faith can include belief in faeries, divination of the future, ghosts, anything. All of these have something in common- they have no basis when trialed by scientific method. No matter where you are on the sliding scale of how many of those little things you believe in, there is no choice to be made beyond just two; how open will you be to persuasion- to new ideas- and how critical of those ideas will you be. Even then it can be argued these things are inherent. Then you go into the debate of 'does anyone really have free will or are we just all machines responding to stimuli?' debate. As for whether human beings are born atheistic, I like to think of it as a sort of Shrodinger's cat type situation. You can't see into someone's head, you don't know what they will be until their full personality and intelligence emerges. Perhaps they are both theistic and atheistic whilst in the 'box' of infancy, childhood and even young adulthood. However, I may be using the analogy wrongly- I am no physicist and all that poo poo confuses me. Feel free to argue the point. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 07:36
|
|
|
Berk Berkly posted:
In a previous post I suggested that the basic fundamentals of humanity promotes the existence of racism and patriarchy. For some strange reason this didn't elicit the same reaction from you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 07:56
|
|
|
The Belgian posted:Claiming atheism is the default as some obvious thing is utter insanity as religion has been with us since the beginning of humanity or at least as far as we can trace back information. I think we should make a distinction between "atheist" and "irreligious." Like other people have said, some forms of Buddhism and ancestor worship could be considered non-theistic but are still clearly religious. Even, for example, the Greek/Roman gods were very different in nature from the Abrahamic God. There are also various things that some people have referred to as "secular religions." This is a very hard category to define, but when Chinese peasants are sacrificing animals to statues of Mao and Kim Jong Un is for all intents and purposes worshiped as a living god in North Korea, it is clear that religious patterns of thought can appear outside of the structures of traditional religions. So it is theoretically possible for both "atheist" and "religious" to be default states.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 09:17
|
|
|
Ah, atheism chat. Never boring. To answer the OP (and keep in mind that this is my personal views): Atheism is a choice concerning how one wishes to see the sunrise, as it were. As we grow, our world is impacted by those around us. Cultural norms, societal cues and, yes, beliefs and interpretations come from an amalgamation of our experiences and our own logical processes putting it together. We grow, we accumulate and build upon those notions that we already have. And the process never really stops until we shuffle off the mortal coil. The choice comes from when those logical processes hit a roadblock and we have to find a way around it. Do we see the sunrise as a beautiful function of an unseen force, explained by a deity in years past up until now? Or do we see it as a beautiful function of our planetary rotation? From there, do we see the planetary rotation as divine will, or natural law? Can we observe the divine creation, or merely bask in it's existence? And so the questions branch and twist and turn, becoming our own personal styles of belief. But each question is a choice, a place to decide what view of the world fits inside your beliefs. To me, the sunrise is the intricate clockwork of a universe that gives not a single gently caress about us. We are alone, drifting in a dark chasm around a star, governed by natural laws and pure chance. And the fact that I'm here, at this point in time to shitpost on a smartphone with people I will never know, is the closest thing to a miracle I can describe.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 19:49
|
|
|
J.A.B.C. posted:Ah, atheism chat. Never boring.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq4uCWtQE24&t=12s
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 22:15
|
|
|
Just pausing discussion here to say happy valentine's day to you all and point out that without religion we wouldn't have this festival of love!
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 22:36
|
|
|
les fleurs du mall posted:Just pausing discussion here to say happy valentine's day to you all and point out that without Fixed
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 22:37
|
|
|
les fleurs du mall posted:Just pausing discussion here to say happy valentine's day to you all and point out that without religion we wouldn't have this festival of love! From human sacrifice to Hallmark cards. Also, I say we bring back Lupercalia. Go Rome or Go Home!
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2016 22:45
|
|
|
Thank you for this. I had forgotten that one.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2016 07:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 14:47 |
|
|
i have a whore butt my butt LOVES COCK
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2016 07:25
|
|