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Plethora posted:I honestly don't remember that in Narnia. That was the entirety of the Tash stuff.
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Feb 14, 2016 15:54
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I think it's just really hard to write an appealing work of fiction about the ideas of your religion or your political party that comes off thoughtful and not like a poorly concealed advertisement, rarely ever managed, and while I'm not mad at that comic I didn't know existed yesterday for trying the caliber of writing there so far doesn't really lead me to expect it's gonna be this century's Paradise Lost.Plethora posted:I honestly don't remember that in Narnia. I DO remember the hilariously self-critical sections, particularly the entire last book where a donkey and baboon dress up like Aslan and trick his followers into doing what they want, which is an obvious metaphor for lovely Christians pretending to know God's demands and abusing the hell out of the public. Not to mention the number of times Aslan fails his people and everything falls to garbage, showing that not even deities are perfect. It's mostly concentrated in The Last Battle which boils down to a very conventional end times narrative where Tash (i.e. wizard Allah) turns into a giant skeleton monster and leads the armies of darkness in the final battle of good and evil etc. The rest of the Narnia books, Out of the Silent Planet etc. tend to handle dogma pretty critically and arrive at some very non-doctrinaire conclusions but Lewis ain't exactly modern-style multi-culti. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 15:54
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Lol at everybody ignoring Screwtape Letters.
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Feb 14, 2016 16:32
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Plethora posted:I honestly don't remember that in Narnia. I DO remember the hilariously self-critical sections, particularly the entire last book where a donkey and baboon dress up like Aslan and trick his followers into doing what they want, which is an obvious metaphor for lovely Christians pretending to know God's demands and abusing the hell out of the public. Not to mention the number of times Aslan fails his people and everything falls to garbage, showing that not even deities are perfect. Books 3 and 7 cast swarthy musslemen as the villains. While this would appear to be a straightfoward demonisation of Islam, it's clarified at the end of book 7 that it doesn't matter who you think you worship, only what you actually do. Some people find that to be a trite and patronising cop-out though, so they continue to call Lewis racist. A Wizard of Goatse posted:It's mostly concentrated in The Last Battle which boils down to a very conventional end times narrative where Tash (i.e. wizard Allah) turns into a giant skeleton monster and leads the armies of darkness in the final battle of good and evil etc. Tash is actually more of a Shiva. Wizard Allah would be Aslan's father, ie the ancient space wizard Abrahamic God who never appears in the books, ie the same situation we have in reality where the Muslim and Christian gods are known by different names but are functionally the exact same dude. The Arab dudes say they're worshipping Tash, and some of them are, but there's also a bunch of them who do so in a way that's peaceful and contemplative (you know, like most real muslims). Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 17:01
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And in the last book most of them don't even believe in Tash.
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Feb 14, 2016 17:32
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I really did like the bit at the end with Tash where basically the moral was even if you believe in the "wrong" god, you still can get to Narnia-heaven if you do things right. It's more charitable than some other interpretations of christianity. CS Lewis is an odd duck, religiously speaking. He became an atheist at 15, and one of the people who helped convert him back to christianity was JRR Tolkien of all people. In a way, the Narnia books were in part him figuring things out for himself. He gets even weirder in his space books.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:17
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SlothfulCobra posted:I really did like the bit at the end with Tash where basically the moral was even if you believe in the "wrong" god, you still can get to Narnia-heaven if you do things right. It's more charitable than some other interpretations of christianity. But then again, Susan gets hard-core rejected by Heaven for doing nothing more than being an adult woman, if I'm recalling correctly. She enjoys looking pretty! She is not in my sight, or whatever.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:25
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Bobulus posted:But then again, Susan gets hard-core rejected by Heaven for doing nothing more than being an adult woman, if I'm recalling correctly. She enjoys looking pretty! She is not in my sight, or whatever. Yeah, she stops being a friend of Aslan because she puts on lipstick which is the same thing as becoming a whore.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:27
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In a world chock full of fantasy races, what could possibly be so shocking that evil cannibals would shriek and run at the sight of it? Or turn an entire village against a friend? When they've already established that she's not Drath. This Book 2 reveal better have some payoff.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:29
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Jackard posted:In a world chock full of fantasy races, what could possibly be so shocking that evil cannibals would shriek and run at the sight of it? Or turn an entire village against a friend? 
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Feb 14, 2016 18:35
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Jackard posted:In a world chock full of fantasy races, what could possibly be so shocking that evil cannibals would shriek and run at the sight of it? Or turn an entire village against a friend? hello.jpg
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Feb 14, 2016 18:39
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:I think it's just really hard to write an appealing work of fiction about the ideas of your religion or your political party that comes off thoughtful and not like a poorly concealed advertisement, Nonsense. You just need a proper religion first.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:45
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Bobulus posted:But then again, Susan gets hard-core rejected by Heaven for doing nothing more than being an adult woman, if I'm recalling correctly. She enjoys looking pretty! She is not in my sight, or whatever. Actually it's because she wasn't dead yet  That's the ending of book 7, they all die in a train crash.Of course the reason she wasn't dead was because she wasn't hanging out with the narnia fanclub on account of being too worldly, and they do go on a bit about that, but details. Nowhere is it stated that she's out forever; much like the dwarves (sat around a banquet table in outer heaven yet believing they're still locked in a dark stable at the end of the world) she's got an eternity to get in to heaven, she pretty much just has to realise it's there. e/ I wouldn't fault anyone for still disagreeing with this, because objective morality and explicit deism, no matter how liberal, are still things it's possible to reasonably want to reject; I'd just like for people to respond to the message that's actually there rather than one that isn't. Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 18:51
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Bobulus posted:But then again, Susan gets hard-core rejected by Heaven for doing nothing more than being an adult woman, if I'm recalling correctly. She enjoys looking pretty! She is not in my sight, or whatever. Uh, that's not actually what happens. She doesn't get rejected by Heaven, she doesn't show up in Narnia because she's the only one of the cast who doesn't die in the train crash. Aslan says outright that she'll end up in the new Narnia when she dies, if I remember it right.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:53
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There is talk of how she's not a "friend of Narnia" anymore. I don't think it's out of place to criticize Lewis on this one.
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Feb 14, 2016 18:59
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paradoxGentleman posted:There is talk of how she's not a "friend of Narnia" anymore. I don't think it's out of place to criticize Lewis on this one. I thought the whole point was that Narnia was just some British WW2 children playing pretend, and she grew up and stop wanting to play pretend? but I guess fundamentalists of a certain age like quoting Lewis or whatever.
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Feb 14, 2016 19:17
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ConanThe3rd posted:I would read a comic about Jesus suplexing people.  Also there are like 4 new PBFs holy poo poo how did I not know this.
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Feb 14, 2016 19:23
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ConanThe3rd posted:I would read a comic about Jesus suplexing people. Well looks like everything worked out in the end.
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Feb 14, 2016 19:27
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Feb 14, 2016 19:27
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kvx687 posted:Uh, that's not actually what happens. She doesn't get rejected by Heaven, she doesn't show up in Narnia because she's the only one of the cast who doesn't die in the train crash. Aslan says outright that she'll end up in the new Narnia when she dies, if I remember it right. I googled a bit: quote:Even then, Lewis indicates, it’s hardly hellfire for Susan. He wrote to a young reader in 1957: “The books don’t tell us what happened to Susan. She is left alive in this world at the end, having by then turned into a rather silly, conceited young woman. But there’s plenty of time for her to mend and perhaps she will get to Aslan’s country in the end . . . in her own way.” Seems like if you're willing to accept that is up to you.
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Feb 14, 2016 19:32
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wiegieman posted:Also there are like 4 new PBFs holy poo poo how did I not know this. Achewood's been updating a bit too if anyone wasn't aware
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Feb 14, 2016 19:51
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You know, speaking of fantasy webcomics and religion, I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned Vattu yet.
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Feb 14, 2016 21:40
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evan dahm's work is really good read archivally (like, easily among the best webcomic work out there) but individual pages generally aren't as punchy as other stuff i read, so it's hard to keep up with regularly
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Feb 14, 2016 22:31
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I had kind of guessed at the religious angle in Daughter of the Lilies before it was explicitly revealed, but I don't blame people for being blindsided by it. If you haven't read a lot of Christian literature, it's going to seem to come out of nowhere. I don't think the characters' attitudes being referred to here are about persecution of Christians, per se. I think it's more about fear of the new and different. That said, I'll be happy to eliminate it from my bookmarks if it goes too far that way. I am worried by the author's direct reference of Narnia. The earlier Narnia books were my favorites growing up, but as the series went on, the stories themselves started to become subservient to proselytization; I'm happy to read a story that wants to tell me to think something, but it needs to be a story first and a polemic second, and the later Narnia books drifted into the wrong end of that spectrum. Particularly when Lewis takes it upon himself to jab at people or places he doesn't like, which, again, happens more and more as the series goes on - witness him making GBS threads on the entire concept of scientific progress in the second-to-last book, The Magician's Nephew. (It's sort of like including H.G. Wells as an unwitting agent of Satan in That Hideous Strength; a self-indulgent, somewhat mean-spirited way of giving the middle finger to whatever you don't like in your narrative. If you want to do this, for God's sake be subtle.)
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Feb 14, 2016 23:10
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I did like Lilles' portrayal of hell though. Very stylish.
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Feb 14, 2016 23:14
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Tollymain posted:evan dahm's work is really good read archivally (like, easily among the best webcomic work out there) but individual pages generally aren't as punchy as other stuff i read, so it's hard to keep up with regularly He definitely works pretty exclusively long-form (and I love what he does) and unlike some other webcomics does not try to land a joke or significant beat on every single page (which is certainly impressive when you can tell a long-form story and make each page stand alone day by day -- not sure there are many creators who pull that off). Speaking of other long-form comics I enjoy, Unsounded is due to return from its chapter-end hiatus tomorrow, and Blindsprings has been updating at a solid three pages a week for a while now and the story has definitely picked up the pace. Quinton fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Feb 14, 2016 |
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Feb 14, 2016 23:15
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Religion in comics is cool dudes. http://jessemoynihan.com/?p=11
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Feb 14, 2016 23:25
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I'm willing to give Daughter of Lilies a chance; honestly, the post under the comic is more worrying to me than the actual page itself. If there hadn't been a whole conversation about it I probably would have just read past it without a second thought. does kind of explain the author's childish censoring of the middle finger and swearing though, while having no problem with showing blood and gore. 
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Feb 14, 2016 23:26
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FlyinPingu posted:does kind of explain the author's childish censoring of the middle finger and swearing though, while having no problem with showing blood and gore. I found that a bit a precious too. If you've just shown someone getting bisected by a sword, the word "poo poo" should not send you into conniptions.
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Feb 14, 2016 23:34
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SlothfulCobra posted:You know, speaking of fantasy webcomics and religion, I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned Vattu yet. Tollymain posted:evan dahm's work is really good read archivally (like, easily among the best webcomic work out there) but individual pages generally aren't as punchy as other stuff i read, so it's hard to keep up with regularly Vattu is probably one of the best webcomics currently running, and Rice Boy and Order of Tales are two of the best webcomics ever made. But following them as they update can be pretty difficult, and it's really easy to lose the myriad subplots just reading 2-3 pages a week. It'll probably be another masterpiece once it's all completed. If we're talking about religion in webcomics, Balderdash! and Goodbye to Halos have both heavily implied a religious angle to their stories, though both of them aren't that far into their stories so it's hard to say also K6BD exists
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Feb 14, 2016 23:44
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SynthOrange posted:Religion in comics is cool dudes. I feel like there are a million little references in this comic that I don't get and my enjoyment of it is diminished because of it. Which is a shame because it's pretty darn great.
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Feb 14, 2016 23:53
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FlyinPingu posted:I'm willing to give Daughter of Lilies a chance; honestly, the post under the comic is more worrying to me than the actual page itself. If there hadn't been a whole conversation about it I probably would have just read past it without a second thought. I would have retroactively really liked that if it had only applied to SPACE JESUS it would have been a cute touch. As it is I enjoy the comic quite a lot regardless of the sudden drama that people seem to have in reaction to the twist haha, thanks for linking it Nuns with Guns. Blackgrass is also super cool so another thanks out to Tollymain for linking that.
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Feb 15, 2016 00:18
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kill six billion demons has religion as an element in the story but it's also a story where capital-g God committed holy suicide, the gods that came after are all long-dead (barring a twist), and the most powerful beings that rule all creation and call themselves demiurges are just really loving powerful people idk if that really compares to any real-world religions or serves as a commentary on them
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Feb 15, 2016 00:23
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idonotlikepeas posted:I found that a bit a precious too. If you've just shown someone getting bisected by a sword, the word "poo poo" should not send you into conniptions. What's really strange is that there is nothing in the english language that requires you to write someone flipping someone else off or using mild profanities. Why bother to write that dialogue if you're just going to self censor?
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Feb 15, 2016 00:33
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Tollymain posted:kill six billion demons has religion as an element in the story but it's also a story where capital-g God committed holy suicide, the gods that came after are all long-dead (barring a twist), and the most powerful beings that rule all creation and call themselves demiurges are just really loving powerful people It's sorta a mashup of Buddhism and Gnosticism but most importantly it is not the author's actual religion that they are trying to convert you to
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Feb 15, 2016 00:57
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It's really just Abraham religions that tend to kick up a fuss. Elements from practically all other world religions get mixed up into fiction without much of a problem. That might just have to do with western audiences though.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:43
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Pavlov posted:It's really just Abraham religions that tend to kick up a fuss. Elements from practically all other world religions get mixed up into fiction without much of a problem. That might just have to do with western audiences though. Lot of Judeo-Christian stuff going into the melting pot in Japanese games/anime/manga.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:45
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True, but they only tend to incorporate stylistic aspects, not theological ones. So, there'll be angel wings and pope hats, but not running themes of the meek inheriting the earth (*cough* Tolkien).
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Feb 15, 2016 01:56
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FlyinPingu posted:I'm willing to give Daughter of Lilies a chance; honestly, the post under the comic is more worrying to me than the actual page itself. If there hadn't been a whole conversation about it I probably would have just read past it without a second thought. She kind of erratically censors gore, too. Like when someone is still alive but has gaping injuries she frames shots to obscure the nastier bits of the injury, but a dude is dead and got his innards munched on? Yeah show that all the way! I didn't think to include a trigger warning of a cameo for a Abrahamic god because idk it didn't feature into it that heavily before, and I didn't know if it would be a big thing in the future. Clearly Thistle's magic is god-powered but it seems too early to judge whether that'll lead to the entire narrative getting pulled into some Christ parable or if it's going to be interesting table dressing to a wider story or what. It'd be awesome if Thistle's head was a giant flaming wheel or something under the hood though
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Feb 15, 2016 02:17
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I just caught up with Daughter of the Lilies, after following the link posted earlier in the thread. I have a weakness for orcs in adventuring parties, you see. Neither the latest page nor the newspost bothered me. Her expressed admiration for Doug TenNapel, on the other hand, has me leery of future developments. Perhaps this is unfair on my part--he is by most accounts a talented artist and storyteller who doesn't let his faith run rampant over the plot. Unfortunately I'm unable to bring myself to read any of his work after discovering he was a godawful homophobe. However the only tenet of faith expressed in Lilies thus far is "do not summon demons." I'm willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt for now. She may not be the next Tolkien, but I can't begrudge someone wanting to make the attempt.
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