Star Wars: Millenial Trash Discussion Station

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Vintersorg: Mar 3, 2004; President of
the Brendan Fraser
Fan Club

Are you loving kidding me?

Are we seriously nitpicking that?

"Creature in a mask" is a scary thing. Nothing more needs to be said. We don't need to see her being chased by creatures in masks (ofc earlier she is chased by Stormtroopers - creatures in masks).

"you're playing three dimensional chess and i'm just sitting here trying to play checkers"

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:06

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 14:13

wyoming: Jun 7, 2010; Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.

It's not a scary thing, she's calling him a dweeb.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:13

turtlecrunch: May 14, 2013; Hesitation is defeat.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Yikes if you need the blu-ray to remember the film 2 months later.

It's probably a good idea to distinguish between writing and its delivery. The dialogue in Force Awakens is kind of unremarkable and mainly employed as a sound effect. Like you could replace a good amount of it with various adverbs: "talks excitedly", 'talks calmly", etc. As usual, concrete examples are important. I grabbed a copy of the script and randomly selected to one of the few parts where two characters actually have a conversation:

Rey: Where am I?
Kylo: You're my guest.
Rey: Where are the others?
Kylo: You mean the murderers, traitors and thieves you call friends? You'll be relieved to hear that I have no idea. ... You still want to kill me.
Rey: That happens when you're being hunted by a creature in a mask.
Kylo: Tell me about the droid.
Rey: He's a BB unit with a selenium drive and a thermal hyperscan vindicator.
Kylo: He's carrying a section of a navigational chart. We have the rest, recovered from archives of the Empire. We need the last piece. And somehow you convinced the
droid to show it to you. You. A scavenger.

This dialogue is... not good. It's loaded with exposition, and it's only on the eighth line that we get to the meat of the conversation. The unseen BB8 is being held up as some kind of ultimate judge of character and Kylo resents not being selected. That aspect is just dropped in there clumsily, because why is he going on about this during an interrogation? Kylo's specific disdain for 'scavengers' comes out of nowhere and is never referenced again. This is a lot of stuff to be told and not shown.

Keep in mind that this is the characters' second interaction, and the first time that Rey even speaks to Kylo. Rey has effectively no idea who Kylo even is. How does she know he's the one hunting her, and that he wears a mask all the time? Also why is Kylo mad at BB8 on a personal level? He hasn't interacted with him either.

Kylo does not need to "interrogate" people like mortal scrubs do, he has the Force. He is free to banter with them as much as he likes, because it's not going to change their resistance to him ripping their brains out. Isn't it odd that he bothers to talk to them at all? He has to warm himself up to it, which means taking it slow and not getting to the point straight off. But in fact he spends a lot more time talking with Rey (and reassuring her during the act) than he does with Poe, even though both Rey and Poe are condescending toward him. His first line to Poe is "I had no idea we had the best pilot in the Resistance on board. Comfortable?" It's a sarcastic delivery, but the words themselves are flattery and concern, as if he's taking Poe out on a dinner for two. His next line to Poe is also flattery. Again, he's working himself up to his job. He doesn't need to get to the point in his verbal exchanges, because he's going to clutch it out of his victim's head.

The situation in which the dialogue to Rey is delivered sees Kylo in the corner, watching Rey as she wakes up. Rey calls him a creature because that's what he is at that point, and she says "hunted" because that is what a creature does. Isn't it more self-comforting to call him a creature, staring without comprehension, than to acknowledge that a man has been lingering around you and watching you sleep? When he takes off his mask, he becomes human to her, though it's worth noting he plops his mask down in a pile of ashes. This is all ritualistic to him, but to Rey it's a reason to be afraid not of the creature but of the man he turns into.

You're incorrect about the scavenger comment being disregarded. A short while later a Stormtrooper also makes a disdainful reference to Rey's scavenger status. From what representation we have in the film, Kylo Ren's irritation is probably systemic to the First Order. After all, scavengers are people that make their living off of ripping apart what are mostly old Empire ships and selling off the parts like they are any old spaceship parts. If you are the Empire's #1 fanboy group, how do you imagine you might react to people that don't treat the corpses of the Empire's old ships with great solemnity and reverence?

It's also worth noting how Kylo refers to the Resistance and Rey's personal allies: murderers, traitors and thieves. Murderers that kill stormtroopers (as Rey herself did with great gusto), traitors that abandon their brothers and sisters, and thieves. I'm sort of curious as to "thieves" myself. Either the Luke map was straightforward stolen goods, or the First Order's chief speaker Kylo simply sees it as belonging to them regardless, because their goal is the only one it should serve. In the same line, Kylo goes on to reference Rey's desire to kill him. So we've just been told the Resistance is a gang of hoodlums and our hero Rey wants to murderate her enemies, and Rey does not deny this but instead attempts to produce an excuse for doing so, that is she tries to dehumanize Kylo. This sounds to me like a character flaw revealed through the word choice in the dialogue. In the broader context of the whole film, we know that Rey loves to be violent before she gets all her facts straight (see: chasing Finn because she thinks he's a thief without knowing the whole story, trying to shoot stormtroopers before she's turned the safety off- and related to that, the dialogue: "Do you know how to use that?" "Yeah, you pull the trigger.").

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:24

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

Poe and Finn jacked a TIE Fighter to escape so it's completely possible he was referring to that, provided we only want to stick to events within the film.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:29

turtlecrunch: May 14, 2013; Hesitation is defeat.

^ You're right.

Actually it's possible his dialogue refers solely to Poe and Finn who he hates the guts of, and not the Resistance as a whole. Just a bit of standoffishness, like "Rey I hate your friends and they suck". Except you know, spoken dramatically because that's what Kylo is.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:31

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Kylo Ren appears to be equal measures of falling Jedi Anakin and Spaceballs' Dark Helmet. Nobody has walked in on him playing with his toys yet, though they similarly did walk in on a tantrum and try to play it off as NBD. Even his first conversation with Rey is kind of "LONE STAR! At last, we meet for the first time for the last time."

I do like the idea that Rey might have been hunted by creatures in masks before, though. Maybe all her life. Also, if we're going to say that Anakin is awkward for a reason (which, on my recent re-viewing of the prequels, was blindingly obvious), I think we can say that Kylo Ren might seem crappy at interrogation for a reason. He wants to gloat and play "cat and mouse" but doesn't have years of practice being menacing.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:48

turtlecrunch: May 14, 2013; Hesitation is defeat.

Well remember, he's "afraid [he] will never be as strong...as Darth Vader". This is another reason why he might want to work up to each mindgrabbing moment with small talk, he needs that final act to go perfectly, but he's scared. Probably not just of failing, but because he "feels it too".

e: In the Rey scene his worst nightmare comes true.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:54

Neo Rasa: Mar 8, 2007; Everyone should play DUKE games.

Why on earth would a character who fervently worships the ground Anakin Skywalker walks on and is the incarnation of "missing the point" express disdain at people who scavenge and have such a classist view of society? The Force Awakens is such a bad movie no thought was put into the writing at all.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 16:55

SuperMechagodzilla: Jun 9, 2007; NEWT REBORN

Neo Rasa posted:

The Force Awakens is such a bad movie no thought was put into the writing at all.

Bad writing is not caused by 'diminished care-levels', and good writing is not caused by increasing those care-levels.

Bad writing is when you have eight lines of dialogue, in which to quickly establish the conflict between two characters who are meeting for the very first time, and squander them.

Leia: Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper?
Luke: What? Oh... the uniform. I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you!
Leia: You're who?

Three lines of dialogue. Luke thinks he's cool, but Leia looks down on him because she associates his doofy rear end with the stormtroopers. It's clear that this rescue is more about him than about her.

People have speculated that "hunted by a creature in a mask" refers to Rey's past or something, like she's often hunted by creatures in masks. Nope - and that would be telling-not-showing besides.

The line is a reference to earlier in the film, but it's specifically a reference to when BB8 is captured by (googling name) Teedo. Here's Rey's feelings on that: "oh, that's just Teedo. He doesnt respect anybody." No murderous rage there.

It's as I said: the real meat of the conversation is that the two characters are using the basic fight over BB8 to 'actually' express their own feelings for eachother. Kyle's angry at BB8 for not befriending him(?!), while Rey is demanding respect for BB8 and her willingness to kill on his behalf. Remove BB8 from the equation, and you have the characters' relationship: Kyle wants Rey to be his friend, and Rey wants Kyle to respect her. It's romance subtext, to be explored in the next films.

Clearly this doesn't come across at all. Explanations have ranged from 'maybe Kylo is insanely evil and terrifying?' (he's not) to 'maybe they talk weird because they're using the Force?' (that's not how the Force works).

# ? Feb 14, 2016 18:24

homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Neo Rasa posted:

Why on earth would a character who fervently worships the ground Anakin Skywalker walks on and is the incarnation of "missing the point" express disdain at people who scavenge and have such a classist view of society? The Force Awakens is such a bad movie no thought was put into the writing at all.

Kylo Ren has scavenged Darth Vader's mask though.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 18:28

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

homullus posted:

Kylo Ren has scavenged Darth Vader's mask though.

Please, he restored it to its rightful place as an object of Sith worship.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 18:31

SolarFire2: Oct 16, 2001; "You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!

Scavengers are the new nerf-herders.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 19:08

Elfgames: Sep 11, 2011; Fun Shoe

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Kylo: You mean the murderers, traitors and thieves you call friends? You'll be relieved to hear that I have no idea. ... You still want to kill me.
Rey: That happens when you're being hunted by a creature in a mask.

this is pretty damning for our next jedi savior in training to say, we learned in the previous stories that it's not what happens, rey is a terrible star wars fan

# ? Feb 14, 2016 19:09

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Elfgames posted:

this is pretty damning for our next jedi savior in training to say, we learned in the previous stories that it's not what happens, rey is a terrible star wars fan

There's a reading you could do where Rey represents the "normal" person who is very competent but leads an unfulfilling life until they discover the magic of Star Wars. It's practically a Disney advertising pitch within their advertising pitch.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 19:21

SuperMechagodzilla: Jun 9, 2007; NEWT REBORN

computer parts posted:

There's a reading you could do where Rey represents the "normal" person who is very competent but leads an unfulfilling life until they discover the magic of Star Wars. It's practically a Disney advertising pitch within their advertising pitch.

Exactly right.

But even more specifically, the relationship between Kylo and Rey is a very obvious rip on the Bella/Edward dynamic - down to the fact that he can't read her mind.

It's also a safe, inoffensive version because of course this version's Bella unilaterally rejects the 'creepy' Edward in favor of the boring human. Twilight subverts the vampire narrative by making Bella a clever person who takes advantage of Edward's psychological weakness as a part of her quest for greater power. Force Awakens de-subverts Twilight.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 20:03

MrMojok: Jan 28, 2011

OK, now you have gone too far, sir

# ? Feb 14, 2016 20:09

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Even within this utterly bizarre reading, I'm left favoring TFA's approach over manipulating the mentally unwell. Call me [non]crazy I guess.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 20:20

SuperMechagodzilla: Jun 9, 2007; NEWT REBORN

Edward Cullen isn't mentally ill. He's just terrified of his own sexuality because of his religious upbringing.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 20:28

wyoming: Jun 7, 2010; Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.

Kylo Ren is mentally ill and Rey abuses and nearly murders him.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 20:34

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD: Sep 14, 2007; everything is yours

computer parts posted:

There's a reading you could do where Rey represents the "normal" person who is very competent but leads an unfulfilling life until they discover the magic of Star Wars. It's practically a Disney advertising pitch within their advertising pitch.

This is how it struck me following the introduction of Rey. Her aspiration fantasy is played out with Star Wars memorabilia, her connection to the Force is actually just foreknowledge of Star Wars tropes.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 20:37

Neo Rasa: Mar 8, 2007; Everyone should play DUKE games.

homullus posted:

Kylo Ren has scavenged Darth Vader's mask though.

Neo Rasa posted:

Why on earth would a character who fervently worships the ground Anakin Skywalker walks on and is the incarnation of "missing the point" express disdain at people who scavenge and have such a classist view of society? The Force Awakens is such a bad movie no thought was put into the writing at all.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 21:30

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

This is how it struck me following the introduction of Rey. Her aspiration fantasy is played out with Star Wars memorabilia, her connection to the Force is actually just foreknowledge of Star Wars tropes.

This is true of the entire Resistance; in broad strokes, the First Order is a representation of fans desperate to cling to Old Star Wars, while the resistance is guided by the old but uses this to inform New Star Wars. It's notable that Snoke's scenes depict him in a musty cave teaching his students lessons in humility, channeling Yoda. Meanwhile the true Yoda successor happily lives among others in an establishment regarded as hostile in the past. This is emphasized by showing just how worthless and quickly disposed of Starkiller is; it's a predictable and derivative weapon, and the resistance only loses three fighters to it once exposed.

I'm surprised that Prequel fans don't care for TFA, when it retroactively justifies the PT's departure from the OT.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 22:24

Mazreal: Oct 5, 2002; adjusts monocle

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Bad writing is not caused by 'diminished care-levels', and good writing is not caused by increasing those care-levels.

Bad writing is when you have eight lines of dialogue, in which to quickly establish the conflict between two characters who are meeting for the very first time, and squander them.

Leia: Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper?
Luke: What? Oh... the uniform. I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you!
Leia: You're who?

Three lines of dialogue. Luke thinks he's cool, but Leia looks down on him because she associates his doofy rear end with the stormtroopers. It's clear that this rescue is more about him than about her.

People have speculated that "hunted by a creature in a mask" refers to Rey's past or something, like she's often hunted by creatures in masks. Nope - and that would be telling-not-showing besides.

The line is a reference to earlier in the film, but it's specifically a reference to when BB8 is captured by (googling name) Teedo. Here's Rey's feelings on that: "oh, that's just Teedo. He doesnt respect anybody." No murderous rage there.

It's as I said: the real meat of the conversation is that the two characters are using the basic fight over BB8 to 'actually' express their own feelings for eachother. Kyle's angry at BB8 for not befriending him(?!), while Rey is demanding respect for BB8 and her willingness to kill on his behalf. Remove BB8 from the equation, and you have the characters' relationship: Kyle wants Rey to be his friend, and Rey wants Kyle to respect her. It's romance subtext, to be explored in the next films.

Clearly this doesn't come across at all. Explanations have ranged from 'maybe Kylo is insanely evil and terrifying?' (he's not) to 'maybe they talk weird because they're using the Force?' (that's not how the Force works).

star wars fans dont like star wars

# ? Feb 14, 2016 22:25

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Mazreal posted:

star wars fans dont like star wars

Truly, Star Wars fandom is just as cyclical as the universe it covets.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 22:28

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Neurolimal posted:

This is true of the entire Resistance; in broad strokes, the First Order is a representation of fans desperate to cling to Old Star Wars, while the resistance is guided by the old but uses this to inform New Star Wars. It's notable that Snoke's scenes depict him in a musty cave teaching his students lessons in humility, channeling Yoda. Meanwhile the true Yoda successor happily lives among others in an establishment regarded as hostile in the past. This is emphasized by showing just how worthless and quickly disposed of Starkiller is; it's a predictable and derivative weapon, and the resistance only loses three fighters to it once exposed.

I'm surprised that Prequel fans don't care for TFA, when it retroactively justifies the PT's departure from the OT.

Hey, I like it!

# ? Feb 14, 2016 22:53

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Is Finn the 'true' Yoda in this interpretation?

# ? Feb 14, 2016 23:27

BrianWilly: Apr 24, 2007; There is no homosexual terrorist Johnny Silverhand

http://maliadoodles.tumblr.com/post/138911299862/happy-early-v-day-everyone-3

_{droid abuse}

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:07

ungulateman: Apr 18, 2012; pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is

McDowell posted:

Is Finn the 'true' Yoda in this interpretation?

He's talkin' about Maz.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:28

Natural 20: Sep 17, 2007; Wearer of Compasses. Slayer of Gods. Champion of the Colosseum. Heart of the Void.
Saviour of Hallownest.

Mazreal posted:

star wars fans dont like star wars

Supermechagodzillas don't like star wars.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:57

SuperMechagodzilla: Jun 9, 2007; NEWT REBORN

Star Wars is a pretty good series of films. Also, I do not actually exist.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:04

ungulateman: Apr 18, 2012; pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is

if you don't actually exist, could you direct me to the (obviously archived by now) twilight thread so i can read what you have to say about it?

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:20

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

ungulateman posted:

He's talkin' about Maz.

Ah I forgot about her.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:35

Lord Krangdar: Oct 24, 2007; These are the secrets of death we teach.

McDowell posted:

Ah I forgot about her.

She seems like she stumbled in from another movie.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:38

Beeez: May 28, 2012

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Exactly right.

But even more specifically, the relationship between Kylo and Rey is a very obvious rip on the Bella/Edward dynamic - down to the fact that he can't read her mind.

It's also a safe, inoffensive version because of course this version's Bella unilaterally rejects the 'creepy' Edward in favor of the boring human. Twilight subverts the vampire narrative by making Bella a clever person who takes advantage of Edward's psychological weakness as a part of her quest for greater power. Force Awakens de-subverts Twilight.

Every penny put into advancing chatbot technology is justified by this post.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 01:46

Shimrra Jamaane: Aug 10, 2007; Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

I honestly wonder what JJ Abrams would say if you showed him that post.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 03:39

Corek: May 11, 2013; by R. Guyovich

McDowell posted:

Ah I forgot about her.

Star Wars!

# ? Feb 15, 2016 04:13

Harime Nui: Apr 15, 2008; The New Insincerity

I ain't seen the movie but old yellow lady is like the boringest alien design I've ever seen, not surprised she's forgettable

# ? Feb 15, 2016 04:16

The Cameo: Jan 20, 2005

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

I honestly wonder what JJ Abrams would say if you showed him that post.

He'd allude to what he thought of the post and when pressed to be more concrete, either clam up completely or lie.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 04:19

wyoming: Jun 7, 2010; Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.

I really can't even say Maz is like Yoda outside of "tiny alien"
By that metric, the puppet on the two person horse trying to kidnap BB was a "true Yoda"
He teaches us the important life lesson that some people are just jerks.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 05:16

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 14:13

Schwarzwald: Jul 27, 2004; Don't Blink

Maz is almost more like Obi Wan. They're both characters that present the protagonist with a weapon, and then leverage family ties to sent them to war.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 05:53

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