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Which non-Power of the Daleks story would you like to see an episode found from?
This poll is closed.
Marco Polo 36 20.69%
The Myth Makers 10 5.75%
The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve 45 25.86%
The Savages 2 1.15%
The Smugglers 2 1.15%
The Highlanders 45 25.86%
The Macra Terror 21 12.07%
Fury from the Deep 13 7.47%
Total: 174 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
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CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!
They said during the commentary that there was a shortage of Oriental actors in England in the 70's and they had to make due.

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twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

CobiWann posted:

They said during the commentary that there was a shortage of Oriental actors in England in the 70's and they had to make due.

I guess that could be a problem. I was actually expecting at the end for it to be revealed as a disguise.

Rochallor
Apr 23, 2010

ふっっっっっっっっっっっっck

CobiWann posted:

They said during the commentary that there was a shortage of Oriental actors in England in the 70's and they had to make due.

I'm gonna call bullshit on that. It absolutely sounds like retroactive justification, especially seeing as there had been Asian actors on the show in the past. And even if, unlikely as it sounds, there were literally no Asian actors available in the UK at the time, well, then maybe that's a sign that you shouldn't be putting on this story in the first place.

It's a real shame, because Chang is actually a really good character and having him played by an actor who wouldn't have to put on a horrible costume would have elevated a great story even higher. Instead it really drags it down.

ThaGhettoJew
Jul 4, 2003

The world is a ghetto

twistedmentat posted:

I guess that could be a problem. I was actually expecting at the end for it to be revealed as a disguise.

On a completely unrelated topic, there is precisely one thing about Time-Flight that is absolutely awesome.

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

ThaGhettoJew posted:

On a completely unrelated topic, there is precisely one thing about Time-Flight that is absolutely awesome.

I can think of at least three things.

I just want to tell you both good luck, we're all counting on you.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



Rochallor posted:

I'm gonna call bullshit on that. It absolutely sounds like retroactive justification, especially seeing as there had been Asian actors on the show in the past. And even if, unlikely as it sounds, there were literally no Asian actors available in the UK at the time, well, then maybe that's a sign that you shouldn't be putting on this story in the first place.

It's a real shame, because Chang is actually a really good character and having him played by an actor who wouldn't have to put on a horrible costume would have elevated a great story even higher. Instead it really drags it down.

This was a BBC show that ran for 20 years in Britain. It was cancelled 2 years after Talons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

CobiWann posted:

They said during the commentary that there was a shortage of Oriental actors in England in the 70's and they had to make due.

This is a shabby and mendacious lie. There were actors they could have cast (as the cast of The Chinese Detective shows) and they chose not to because yellowface was still culturally acceptable at the time, in a world where the Black and White Minstrel Show was still a major part of ITV's schedule.

egon_beeblebrox
Mar 1, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.



Davros1 posted:

This was a BBC show that ran for 20 years in Britain. It was cancelled 2 years after Talons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show

Oh my God

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Trin Tragula posted:

This is a shabby and mendacious lie. There were actors they could have cast (as the cast of The Chinese Detective shows) and they chose not to because yellowface was still culturally acceptable at the time, in a world where the Black and White Minstrel Show was still a major part of ITV's schedule.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVDOrlugfBI

That's better.

(Also it ran on the Beeb not ITV, don't blame it on the commercial station)

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: The Doctor warms to the Wirrn. Do you want to know more?

Long Synopsis: The Doctor and Lucie materialize in the middle of a giant space battle between a human spacefleet and a swarm of Wirrn. Forced onto a nearby planet while trying to reach the TARDIS, they need to figure out a way to escape the thousands of Wirrn congregating on their position, and the Doctor's solution is extremely distasteful.

What's Good:
  • The world-building. The universe that this story takes place in is well-established, perhaps helped by being able to work off the base provided by The Ark in Space. There is a sense that this place existed before - and will continue to exist after - the Doctor and Lucie stepped onto the page. The Earth has been abandoned due to dangerous solar flares from the sun, and colonists have spread out in search of new worlds to settle, new places to call home. With that comes the dangers that face many new colonies on the frontier, whether it be space or the desert or the jungle, and each group learns to survive in different ways. But there also comes the sadly all too familiar bigotry when different groups meet up - the common insult used in this story is "Indig" for those multi-generational colonists who have established new places for humanity to live, only to be treated like second-class citizens by the "pure" humans who serve in the military/are based in the central Government that looks after all these new frontiers. Humans become alien to each other, hostility, contempt and bitterness builds, and it makes it all the harder to provide the united front needed to deal with an external threat like the Wirrn.

  • Lucie's pro-active stance. From her very first line, Lucie is taking charge in this episode and trying to get poo poo done. First of all it's immediately taking stock of their surroundings and (correctly) deciding to get the gently caress out of dodge because there is obviously nothing good to come of it. Then when she and the Doctor are left stranded in space (including an adorable section where she accidentally turns off her helmet mic) and "rescued" by the military, she refuses to sit meekly back and instead questions everything. She doesn't anybody get away with anything, pressing the point, refusing to play along, and forcing action. When the soldier "guarding" her panics, she is the one who takes control, and she is the one whose altruistic actions lead to the peaceful (if distasteful) resolution with the Wirrn. Lucie isn't just re-established as the Doctor's partner in crime by this point, she's an active protagonist who moves the story along rather than just being along for the ride.

  • Sheridan Smith sees a Wirrn. It's not actually within the parameters of the story, but in the behind-the-scenes interviews she talks giddily over how creepy the Wirrn were and how she deliberately didn't go back to look at pictures from The Ark in Space so she could maintain that horrific image in her head. When Nick Briggs actually shows her the picture, her reaction is adorable :3:

  • The Doctor's open mind. Nicholas Briggs talks openly in the interview section about how the intent of season 3 (at least this first half) was to show a Doctor more detached from humanity than normal considering the length of time he spent on Orbis. This is never more evident than in this story, where despite his growing reattachment to Lucie he still demonstrates a distinctly (and perhaps more appropriate) inhuman/alien mindset. He looks at a situation that is pretty much revolting/unacceptable and he declares it - if not good - then at least necessary. It also follows on from his attitude as seen in Hothouse, where his initial refusal to kill a human being who was being taken over by an alien lifeform changed across the course of the story. Here, he faces the same choice, and this time he doesn't even seem to hesitate to make it. That's a commitment to development that I have to approve of, Big Finish made a creative choice and stuck with it. That said....

What's Not:

  • The Doctor's open mind. Despite appreciating Big Finish's commitment to their creative decision, and even understanding their possible intentions to begin the slow process of prepping the 8th Doctor for the (at the time believed never to be touched) Time War and "The Moment".... I did NOT like what they did with his choice in this story. Whether it's a demonstration of an alien mindset/morality or not, it's fatalistic and that does not fit with the Doctor, and especially not THIS Doctor. From the moment the Wirrn attack, the Doctor is aware of the horrible fate awaiting one of the characters and not only makes no move to attempt to deal with it, but actually seems to approve of the situation. When he discovers what Delong's (played by Daniel Anthony from The Sarah Jane Adventures) people used to do on this planet in order to co-exist with the Wirrn, he almost lauds their foresight. Delong is disgusted, calling them barbarians, but the Doctor prefers to think of them as realists, and pragmatically decides the key to their own salvation is in the sacrifice of the already-infected person, condemning her to a horrific fate which the story does little to allay with its talk of "race memory". This leads into the next problem....

  • The Wirrn. In The Ark in Space, the Wirrn were horrific because they were just so goddamn alien, even if it was in a familiar "nature is hosed up" way. Like a wasp, they laid their eggs inside living hosts which hatched and then ate out the host from the inside, slowly changing the host's body and DNA until it became a fully formed Wirrn itself. Seeking to take the Earth partly out of a desire for revenge and partly for survival (humanity spreading out had lead to competition for territory, as seen in this story), they were destroyed by a victim who managed to retain enough humanity to sacrifice himself to save the rest of the crew. In this story, that concept gets shifted about a bit, as we learn that the Wirrn's intelligence is based on the hosts they use to propogate the species. Most of the Wirrn in the story used cattle as hosts, and as a result have little to no intelligence of their own. Various Queens that hatched inside intelligent human hosts have kept the swarm under control as much as possible but now most have died and only one remains, barely holding the stupid masses in place. These changes not only make the Wirrn somewhat sympathetic, but make them understandable in a way that lessens their impact as a "monster" - you can argue whether that is a good or bad thing, but to me it dilutes the concept of the alien monstrosity that so threatened the 4th Doctor and his companions. They just feel too "normal" now, as opposed to the bizarre, monstrous and alien creatures I remember from The Ark in Space.

  • The resolution. So when the resolution comes, it feels.... wrong. The Wirrn's victim is sacrificed on the altar where Delong's people held their superstitious rites over the generations, creating a new intelligent Queen that can hold the swarm in check again. But the attempts to downplay this barbarism fall short, the victim in question was very much committed to the destruction of the Wirrn and the fact that once infected she became more accommodating of the idea of keeping them alive just gives the impression that for all the talk of the mind/memories surviving, she's basically just been completely devoured and replaced by the parasite. There WAS an interesting potential avenue this could have gone down, because the audio seems to go out of its way to show that Lucie has also been cut by a Wirrn, and I thought it might have been interesting to see the Doctor all gung-ho for the "peaceful" resolution only to lose his poo poo when discovering somebody important to HIM was infected, exposing some hypocrisy over his more "enlightened" approach to the situation. Instead, once everything is resolved they just return to the TARDIS where he sprays her arm with some medicine and informs her she'll be fine now and that would appear to be that, unless something comes of it in a future story. Even the story seems aware of how untenable the resolution is, as other characters point out that the military is still out there and sure as gently caress aren't going to accept regular sacrifices of humans to the Wirrn in order to maintain peace with a race of parasitic insects that "eat" humans from the inside-out. The Wirrn just.... go, the swarm heading up into the stars and out in the blackness of space - ironically, they may end up so hunted down and reduced in numbers that they end up being the ones who board Space Station Nerva in The Ark in Space, rendering the whole thing moot.

Final Thoughts:

Wirrn Dawn makes an admirable effort to take a Classic Who "monster" and fill in the backstory somewhat and give them more character. For me it is a misstep though, leading to the Doctor acting in a very un-Doctor-like fashion and taking a stance that is supposed to come across as slightly alien but pragmatic but doesn't quite hit home. Mark Gatiss got it right with the 9th Doctor in The Unquiet Dead when the Doctor didn't see an issue with using corpses as vessels for alien energy life-forms, but Nicholas Briggs doesn't really pull it off here. That said, it makes use of the broad brushstrokes of that television story to create a solid, believable setting for the story to take place in, and it does very good things with Lucie Miller as a protagonist. Like some other televised Doctor Who stories like The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People the idea may have been to present a situation that could lead to interesting debate on a particular moral issue. Those stories were excellent even beyond the moral conundrum they presented though. Unfortunately for me, I felt this was more like Kill the Moon and The Zygon Invasion where any interesting debate that might arise couldn't change the fact that the story that presented them wasn't very good.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

Jerusalem posted:

Final Thoughts:
Unfortunately for me, I felt this was more like Kill the Moon and The Zygon Invasion where any interesting debate that might arise couldn't change the fact that the story that presented them wasn't very good.

Darn. I was looking forward to this one because I so enjoyed The Ark in Space, but it sounds like it suffers from one of my biggest literary criticisms - if you're going to tell a story about hard choices and moral quandaries, the story surrounding those choices has to be solid to cracking good to carry the weight.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

It's very solid in parts, it's just that things basically fall apart when comes time to resolve the conundrum it has set up and what it does feels so out-of-place for Doctor Who, and doesn't take advantage of the set-up of "The Doctor is NOT a human and doesn't automatically share our sense of right or wrong" in ways that other stories have.

Anyways, I wish they'd hurry up and release the Season 9 complete box-set :mad:

Bicyclops
Aug 27, 2004

Jerusalem posted:




  • Sheridan Smith sees a Wirrn. It's not actually within the parameters of the story, but in the behind-the-scenes interviews she talks giddily over how creepy the Wirrn were and how she deliberately didn't go back to look at pictures from The Ark in Space so she could maintain that horrific image in her head. When Nick Briggs actually shows her the picture, her reaction is adorable :3:



Haha. I don't think I heard that part of it, somehow. The writing for Lucie can be a little awkward at times (mostly whenever they want to do a large, season arc thing that feels a bit at odds with her character), but Sheridan Smith does a great job, with both the good material and the not-so-good material. It was also nice that they got Daniel Anthony a role, although, if I'm being honest, I don't think it was a very good one.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
I should have mentioned this earlier, but the end of Hand of Fear is kind of amazing.

Oh Eldrad, you're so loving evil and we hate you so much we suicided our entire race so you could not return, take over and conquer the galaxy. What a bleakly awesome ending.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

twistedmentat posted:

I should have mentioned this earlier, but the end of Hand of Fear is kind of amazing.

Oh Eldrad, you're so loving evil and we hate you so much we suicided our entire race so you could not return, take over and conquer the galaxy. What a bleakly awesome ending.

On one hand, that's a great ending to the main story.

On the other hand, the complete tonal shift from the first three episodes is really jarring. Three awesome episodes in a working nuclear facility and one that spends fifteen minutes crawling through the caves of ice before Sarah Jane leaves.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


I just read Jon Pertwee's wikipedia page to see if he had any judo training (a question prompted by the weird black space fight in The Three Doctors). I am delighted to learn that he's part of the Ian Flemming / Roald Dahl crazy badass WWII super spy crew.

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS

CommonShore posted:

I just read Jon Pertwee's wikipedia page to see if he had any judo training (a question prompted by the weird black space fight in The Three Doctors). I am delighted to learn that he's part of the Ian Flemming / Roald Dahl crazy badass WWII super spy crew.

Barry Letts' autobiography has some excellent anecdotes about how much of a bare faced chancer Pertwee was too, if you like that sort of thing.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


I do kinda like that sort of thing. I should track all of these things down.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

CobiWann posted:

On one hand, that's a great ending to the main story.

On the other hand, the complete tonal shift from the first three episodes is really jarring. Three awesome episodes in a working nuclear facility and one that spends fifteen minutes crawling through the caves of ice before Sarah Jane leaves.

Yep, that was pretty jarring. Though the story still held up.

I like how the music during the Doctor's investiture into the Presidents office sounds like its from a Final Fantasy game. Oh no some sheets of mylar have invaded! We must give up!

twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Feb 14, 2016

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum
Whole slew of Big Finish news that I spotted this morning.

1) War Doctor Box 2 coming next Monday, the 22nd.

2) Sheridan Smith returns as Lucie Miller for an upcoming Short Trips release.

3) Indira Varma returns as Suzie Costello for an upcoming Torchwood release.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



CommonShore posted:

I just read Jon Pertwee's wikipedia page to see if he had any judo training (a question prompted by the weird black space fight in The Three Doctors). I am delighted to learn that he's part of the Ian Flemming / Roald Dahl crazy badass WWII super spy crew.

From a DWM a couple years back: apparently always trying to make a little extra money, Pertwee would steal Winston Churchill's cigar butts and sell them as mementos.

Davros1 fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Feb 14, 2016

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

jivjov posted:

Whole slew of Big Finish news that I spotted this morning.

1) War Doctor Box 2 coming next Monday, the 22nd

While I'm happy for more releases, I haven't had the chance to listen to anything in the main range since freakin' August! I've had The Bride of Peladon on my phone since the summer...

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

CobiWann posted:

While I'm happy for more releases, I haven't had the chance to listen to anything in the main range since freakin' August! I've had The Bride of Peladon on my phone since the summer...

As ridiculous as it sounds, I'm annoyed by the patches I have in the 101-150 range now and keep hoping they do a special so I can fill those in and listen to them in order.

Very excited for more War Doctor though, and it has given me a chance to catch up on the 8th Doctor Adventures so I can move on to Dark Eyes and Doom Coalition, not to mention I've got the 5th Doctor/Tegan/Nyssa/Adric boxset, the 4th Doctor Adventures, as well as The Last Adventure[ with 6 still to listen to.

Small Strange Bird
Sep 22, 2006

Merci, chaton!

Rochallor posted:

I'm gonna call bullshit on that. It absolutely sounds like retroactive justification, especially seeing as there had been Asian actors on the show in the past. And even if, unlikely as it sounds, there were literally no Asian actors available in the UK at the time, well, then maybe that's a sign that you shouldn't be putting on this story in the first place.
Quite a few '70s shows only used Asian actors as extras and put Brits in yellowface and rubber eyelids for the speaking roles*: Jason King and The New Avengers are just two horrible examples I've watched fairly recently. (The latter was so obviously a white guy in bad makeup that I thought the reveal would be that the character was obsessed with Chinese culture to a ridiculous degree, but no, he genuinely was supposed to be Chinese.)

*Except the ubiquitous Burt Kwouk, obviously.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."
It's interesting Bert Kwouk wasn't ever in Who considering he's been in everything else.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

Au contraire! He was Lin Futu in Four to Doomsday; it's Four to Doomsday, in which we also discover that Tegan happens to speak "Aboriginal", whatever that is, and I'll forgive anyone for having bleached the details out of their brain.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
I can't help think the Ribos Operation looks the way it is because someone found the Ivan the Terrible costumes and set laying around in storage.

Was there ever any mention of Lela after she stayed on Gallifrey?

BSam
Nov 24, 2012

twistedmentat posted:

I can't help think the Ribos Operation looks the way it is because someone found the Ivan the Terrible costumes and set laying around in storage.

Was there ever any mention of Lela after she stayed on Gallifrey?

Yeah, she's a big part of the Gallifrey series of audios.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Trin Tragula posted:

Au contraire! He was Lin Futu in Four to Doomsday; it's Four to Doomsday, in which we also discover that Tegan happens to speak "Aboriginal", whatever that is, and I'll forgive anyone for having bleached the details out of their brain.

Also Adric announces that girls don't like maths because they're stupid

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

twistedmentat posted:

I can't help think the Ribos Operation looks the way it is because someone found the Ivan the Terrible costumes and set laying around in storage.

Was there ever any mention of Lela after she stayed on Gallifrey?

I'm sure there's at least one televised story where the Doctor is either on Gallifrey or meets another Time Lord, and they casually mention,"Oh yeah Leela is happy and doing great but she's off over somewhere else at the moment."

I think it might have been a 5th Doctor story, maybe The Arc of Infinity?

Picklepuss
Jul 12, 2002

Jerusalem posted:

I'm sure there's at least one televised story where the Doctor is either on Gallifrey or meets another Time Lord, and they casually mention,"Oh yeah Leela is happy and doing great but she's off over somewhere else at the moment."

I think it might have been a 5th Doctor story, maybe The Arc of Infinity?
For the longest time I liked to imagine that Leela and Rodan were the ones who fell in love, and that Andred was Leela's *ahem* merkin. Then the drat books and audios ruined it for me. :argh:

Action Jacktion
Jun 3, 2003
It would've made the most sense for Leela to stay with the Outsiders, since they were so much like her people. Just write in a bit where they ask her to lead them. Much better than quickly marrying her off.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

From memory the whole thing boiled down to Louise Jameson openly and frequently telling the producers that she was going to leave at the end of the season and they kept laughing it off like they thought she was just trying to work out a better contract. Then when they finally realized she was serious, they threw a little tantrum about it and just wrote her out with,"Suddenly she fell in love with Ace Rimmer" even though she'd told them she was perfectly happy to be killed off or to come back to film some kind of proper goodbye/farewell.

Edward Mass
Sep 14, 2011

𝅘𝅥𝅮 I wanna go home with the armadillo
Good country music from Amarillo and Abilene
Friendliest people and the prettiest women you've ever seen
𝅘𝅥𝅮
Re-watching Rise of the Cybermen, and having determined the episode takes place on January 2, 2007 (being Cuba Gooding, Jr.'s 39th birthday), the phrase 'Christmas has come early' seems pretty stupid to use. WHY DID YOU NOT CATCH THIS, HELEN RAYNOR?!? :argh:

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Maybe in the alternate Earth, Christmas is celebrated at Easter time!

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

Jerusalem posted:

I'm sure there's at least one televised story where the Doctor is either on Gallifrey or meets another Time Lord, and they casually mention,"Oh yeah Leela is happy and doing great but she's off over somewhere else at the moment."

I think it might have been a 5th Doctor story, maybe The Arc of Infinity?

Ah okay. That's fine, it would have just be odd to have that happen and just never mention it again.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Jerusalem posted:

Then when they finally realized she was serious, they threw a little tantrum about it and just wrote her out with,"Suddenly she fell in love with Ace Rimmer" even though she'd told them she was perfectly happy to be killed off or to come back to film some kind of proper goodbye/farewell.

What a guy.

SpaceCommie
Oct 2, 2008

I'm escaping to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by Capitalism ...

SPACE!



Got round to listening to The Brotherhood Of The Daleks.

The Dalek version of The Red Flag was adorable.

Almost as much as the friendly Daleks in Dark Eyes :3:.

Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

Possibly the best moment on British radio ever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR9yE1vCVyU

Howard Goodall captures Classic FM and seizes the opportunity to play the orchestral Ace Rimmer theme (and proves that there's no smooth way to say "and it was composed and conducted by me"). Because you would, wouldn't you?

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Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



Trin Tragula posted:

Au contraire! He was Lin Futu in Four to Doomsday; it's Four to Doomsday, in which we also discover that Tegan happens to speak "Aboriginal", whatever that is, and I'll forgive anyone for having bleached the details out of their brain.

He was also in the audio Loups-Garoux

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