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Clochette posted:I have an Idiots on Social Media story for you fine folks today. This is the poo poo I come here for e: top of page, happy v day 
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Feb 14, 2016 23:45
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Dogfish posted:I'm sorry to say this, but none of this explains why you think there's more than a glancing relationship between specific genetic disorders and racist eugenics. I have actually looked quite a bit at "the history of stuff like Nazism, the goings on in Italy, and the general history of the period" but I don't see what you're arguing, which is why I asked for a little more clarity. I'm sorry because I feel like this is a rude response, but your answer is a non-answer. We should probably let this topic go, though, because this is a derail and I think the conversation has moved on. I think his point was pretty clear and it's that the original concept of eugenics were racist because of the context and era in which they were popularized but that the basic tenets aren't necessarily racist if applied under a modern lens of altering or deleting, instead of breeding out, genes that are seen as a negative.
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Feb 15, 2016 00:07
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I love the Sonic the Hedgehog's PR department's Social Media game  
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Feb 15, 2016 00:19
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TinTower posted:I love the Sonic the Hedgehog's PR department's Social Media game Sweet merciful Christ. 
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Feb 15, 2016 00:20
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TinTower posted:I love the Sonic the Hedgehog's PR department's Social Media game all those female sonic fans out there, trapped in the friend zone
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Feb 15, 2016 00:29
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TinTower posted:I love the Sonic the Hedgehog's PR department's Social Media game  (Verified account checkmarks don't show up next to every post on mobile but this is from the real account)
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Feb 15, 2016 00:46
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china bot posted:all those female sonic fans out there, trapped in the friend zone I was actually surprised to learn that there are a ton of aspergery, barely functional female sonic fans just like there are male ones. Apparently sonic taps into some weird checkpoint for autism in both genders
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Feb 15, 2016 00:56
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Aesop Poprock posted:I was actually surprised to learn that there are a ton of aspergery, barely functional female sonic fans just like there are male ones. Apparently sonic taps into some weird checkpoint for autism in both genders 
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Feb 15, 2016 00:58
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Aesop Poprock posted:I was actually surprised to learn that there are a ton of aspergery, barely functional female sonic fans just like there are male ones. Apparently sonic taps into some weird checkpoint for autism in both genders How else do you explain Chris-Chan?
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Feb 15, 2016 01:04
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genuinely had no idea, so bully for me, i guess
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Feb 15, 2016 01:07
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goose fleet posted:How is it ethical to willingly let people be born with a disability if the technology gets to the point where it no longer has to happen I think the main reason is that it can hurt the feelings of those who have those conditions (in the sense that it's society's way of saying "it would have been better if you were never born"). I ultimately disagree with this since the benefits obviously outweigh the harm, but I can at least understand it.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:08
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Also in general society has kind of pushed a message that your disabilities define you so some people take that to mean that their disability is an integral part of their character and that by curing others of said disability you're robbing them of some part of their individuality.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:10
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I'm pretty sure it would hurt more than just feelings to be born with some horrible deformity or genetic disorder
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Feb 15, 2016 01:11
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goose fleet posted:I'm pretty sure it would hurt more than just feelings to be born with some horrible deformity or genetic disorder It's a big problem w/r/t autism where there are more than a few high-functioning autistics who don't want to see a cure for it since being autistic is part of who they are and by curing autism they believe that you're trying to tell them that a big part of who they are is just another problem to be solved.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:14
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p37_Ux1G_BI
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Feb 15, 2016 01:14
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Lady Naga posted:It's a big problem w/r/t autism where there are more than a few high-functioning autistics who don't want to see a cure for it since being autistic is part of who they are and by curing autism they believe that you're trying to tell them that a big part of who they are is just another problem to be solved. Life is a problem, death is the solution.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:20
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FreudianSlippers posted:Life is a problem, death is the solution. 
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Feb 15, 2016 01:21
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Lady Naga posted:It's a big problem w/r/t autism where there are more than a few high-functioning autistics who don't want to see a cure for it since being autistic is part of who they are and by curing autism they believe that you're trying to tell them that a big part of who they are is just another problem to be solved. That's good for them but I don't think it's ethical to hold back a cure for autism or deafness or blindness because everyone should be able to experience the full range of human existence
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Feb 15, 2016 01:24
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goose fleet posted:That's good for them but I don't think it's ethical to hold back a cure for autism or deafness or blindness because everyone should be able to experience the full range of human existence Well obviously.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:24
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Lady Naga posted:It's a big problem w/r/t autism where there are more than a few high-functioning autistics who don't want to see a cure for it since being autistic is part of who they are and by curing autism they believe that you're trying to tell them that a big part of who they are is just another problem to be solved. At the same time I'd hope an adult can look at the problems they face with their illness/disability/whatever and not want the same problems and the pain they deal with have to be faced by the next generation. It's pretty selfish to not see past your own life and not be able to think, " Hey, because of my illness I've faced undue hardship, and I don't want little kids to have to go through what I did if it can be helped." Kinda like those deaf parents that choose for their kids to not have implants to hear normally. Selfish as hell to put another person through hardship just because you've found an identity with your disability.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:26
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Scathach posted:Kinda like those deaf parents that choose for their kids to not have implants to hear normally. Selfish as hell to put another person through hardship just because you've found an identity with your disability. I don't agree with the whole "no cochlear implant" stuff that the deaf community believes in, but it was explained to me like this. Deaf people have their own culture, their own language. And, when they have a kid, there is a big fear that they won't be able to relate with their kid because they will be in such radically different cultures. "Just because you've found an identity with your disability" is putting it really lightly, I do believe that there would be huge amounts of fear regarding relating to one's child. I completely agree that they should have coclear implants, but the decision boils down to so much more than just selfishness.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:33
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Scathach posted:At the same time I'd hope an adult can look at the problems they face with their illness/disability/whatever and not want the same problems and the pain they deal with have to be faced by the next generation. It's pretty selfish to not see past your own life and not be able to think, " Hey, because of my illness I've faced undue hardship, and I don't want little kids to have to go through what I did if it can be helped." The deaf thing is very understandable since I think deaf parents have a fear that their child won't have the same connection with them if they're born able to hear. Understandable, but still extremely selfish and short sighted. Especially when it goes to the opposite end of the spectrum and you get stuff like this, with parents basically designing it so their children are deaf http://jme.bmj.com/content/28/5/283.full Please don't design your children with defects that match your defects
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Feb 15, 2016 01:37
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Gross Dude posted:I don't agree with the whole "no cochlear implant" stuff that the deaf community believes in, but it was explained to me like this. Deaf people have their own culture, their own language. And, when they have a kid, there is a big fear that they won't be able to relate with their kid because they will be in such radically different cultures. "I won't let my kid have a better life because I didn't have one" seems pretty selfish to me.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:37
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what's super fun is when the internet applies this to anxiety disorders and depression and tries to discourage people to seek help for those mental illnesses because it's "just who they are" 
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Feb 15, 2016 01:37
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Dogfish posted:Well, there are lots of disability advocates who argue that what's actually disabling is that people with genetic or physical difference live in a society that's not organized for them. There are autism advocates who strongly argue against therapies aimed at normalizing the autistic way of being and of thinking for high-functioning autistics, arguing that their thought patterns and ways of understanding the world are part of their identities. There is an entire culture built around being Deaf whose proponents would strongly argue that rendering Deaf people hearing would rob them of their culture and language.  I was busy driving and cooking all day so I couldn't respond right away but I don't think I could have put it more eloquently. Someone else mentioned on the science side, while we've mapped out the human genome, there's still so much we don't know about it and the way things in it interact. I love this kind of poo poo but its complex as hell.
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Feb 15, 2016 01:42
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Aesop Poprock posted:I think his point was pretty clear and it's that the original concept of eugenics were racist because of the context and era in which they were popularized but that the basic tenets aren't necessarily racist if applied under a modern lens of altering or deleting, instead of breeding out, genes that are seen as a negative. The point that I took them to be trying to make was that one of the origins of eugenic theory was specific genetic disorders in specific racial populations being used as evidence for inferiority of those racial populations, which doesn't make a ton of sense from a history of science perspective and wasn't supported by any of their "here are the basics of eugenics" post. But I'm glad we're still talking about this. goose fleet posted:That's good for them but I don't think it's ethical to hold back a cure for autism or deafness or blindness because everyone should be able to experience the full range of human existence In more "I'm glad we're still talking about this" news, here are some other examples of the argument you're making that we would, for the most part, no longer find persuasive today. In the 19th and 20th centuries, Christian missionaries were very concerned that heathens were cut off from experiencing the full range of human life because they did not have the opportunity to have a personal relationship with God through Jesus. Non-Christians were often described as spiritually blind or deaf and the genuine sorrow and pity that many missionaries and missionary organizations felt that these poor souls were not only damned to eternal Hellfire but also were cut off from what they considered an essential human experience is well-documented. The original cultures of many of these "heathens" were ultimately irreparably lost or altered by the advent of Christianity, which is exactly what Deaf people argue will happen if all Deaf people become hearing. It's not possible for people who are Deaf to simultaneously experience Deaf culture and hearing culture. They won't get "the full range" of human experience. They will experience what it's like to be a hearing person. Until very recently, homosexuality was considered a mental illness and a great deal of effort was made to correct it so that LGBTQ people could experience the full range of normal human life, including family life. As it turned out, it wasn't so much their queerness that was holding them back from being part of nuclear families as it was the social rules around sexuality; once those changed, many queer people did indeed experience family life. We were able to become integrated into society without curing our sexualities, which was explicitly framed as impossible when homosexuality was considered a mental illness. There is a strong argument that much of what's disabling about a disability is the social rules that surround how people should be; when we change those rules, we often find that it's actually much less difficult for people with differences to be fully integrated and function in society. I could go on because I have dozens of examples like these, but here are the two main points: 1. Nobody experiences the full range of human existence, because it is too vast. The spectrum of what it means to be human is too wide, and we are all excluded, by nature or circumstance, from some of it. 2. Nobody, even the most rabid disability advocate, is seriously arguing for withholding any cure for anything (edit: from those who want it). All anyone is saying is that any "improvement" always comes at the expense of some other piece of a person's life, and when we start engineering out some ways of being human, we end up with less diversity in that spectrum. Some people think that's good. Some people think that's bad. Anyone who wants to be taken seriously in discussing this issue should take it into consideration in their argument, because it's not a simple issue. This is obviously not at all within the scope of this thread so I'm going to stop now but this is a big part of what I do for a living and it's a little frustrating to have it boiled down to "it hurts the feelings of autistics" and so on. This is a complex and nuanced issue. Dogfish has a new favorite as of 02:01 on Feb 15, 2016 |
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Feb 15, 2016 01:46
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As a cripple I can say that being a cripple is pretty bad and capital D Deaf people are a bunch of assholes who should be forcibly given hearing if possible.
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Feb 15, 2016 02:02
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Garrand posted:"I won't let my kid have a better life because I didn't have one" seems pretty selfish to me. But.... I just posted about how it's more complicated than that... did you even read it? 
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Feb 15, 2016 02:05
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Clochette posted:I have an Idiots on Social Media story for you fine folks today. Plot twist: Lindsay is a sock-puppet account created by Goofer to try and guilt you into letting him touch your feet somehow.
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Feb 15, 2016 02:06
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Yeah, genes are incredibly loving complicated. The amount of cases where you can fix a disease and not alter anything else by just editing a couple codons is probably pretty drat close to zero.
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Feb 15, 2016 02:09
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FreudianSlippers posted:As a cripple I can say that being a cripple is pretty bad and capital D Deaf people are a bunch of assholes who should be forcibly given hearing if possible. As a Crip* same, but for Bloods. And instead of hearing they should be forcibly given bullets. *I am not actually a Crip
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Feb 15, 2016 02:18
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Dogfish posted:2. Nobody, even the most rabid disability advocate, is seriously arguing for withholding any cure for anything (edit: from those who want it). All anyone is saying is that any "improvement" always comes at the expense of some other piece of a person's life, and when we start engineering out some ways of being human, we end up with less diversity in that spectrum. Some people think that's good. Some people think that's bad. Anyone who wants to be taken seriously in discussing this issue should take it into consideration in their argument, because it's not a simple issue. I appreciate your replies in this thread. However, this point can be pretty strained when it comes to the example I posted, with a couple specifically choosing a donor to best match their genes for deafness. I think that kind of thing is above and beyond unconscionable behavior. There is an argument for engineering genetics so that a child who would be deaf can be born to hear. There are no good arguments for the opposite of that.
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Feb 15, 2016 02:33
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"I'm afraid my kid won't relate to me and I value my culture made around a severe diability more than my child's well-being and ability to thrive in the world."
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Feb 15, 2016 02:41
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Scathach posted:"I'm afraid my kid won't relate to me and I value my culture made around a severe diability more than my child's well-being and ability to thrive in the world." It's a good thing that none of the disabilities being discussed are "severe" then, huh?
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Feb 15, 2016 02:51
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:That person actually seems like an rear end in a top hat. People they've got under that tag are talking about things like corrective rape and sexual harassment, marriages not being legal due to non-consummation, and being told throughout their life even by professionals that there's something wrong or broken with them or their bodies. So they've chosen to mock them. Watchful Entity's not perfect when talking about things that actually exist--they never actually talk, but how they share things seems to suggest to me that they're so used to people spouting bullshit like that they can't actually tell when it's legit but coming from an unexpected source. I still highly recommend following them, they find the weirdest poo poo.
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Feb 15, 2016 02:52
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Lamprey Cannon posted:But back to Idiots on Social Media for a second: I can't believe I didn't screenshot it at the time, but the very first post she made was "God bless Anthony Scalia, finest Sup Ct Justice RIP." She's since taken it down. I guess someone clued her in on his actual name.
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Feb 15, 2016 02:56
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Cleretic posted:Watchful Entity's not perfect when talking about things that actually exist--they never actually talk, but how they share things seems to suggest to me that they're so used to people spouting bullshit like that they can't actually tell when it's legit but coming from an unexpected source. Don't they also search out and reblog things tagged in personal tags "just because?" I know there's no real expectation of privacy online but it seems pretty needlessly mean spirited, especially when your targets are mostly literal children.
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Feb 15, 2016 02:56
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Wanting your disability to continue is selfish, but it's a rational kind of selfish. Imagine if science figured out a way to fix gluten intolerance in the womb. This won't impact current celiac sufferers for a couple of decades, but at some future point there won't be gluten free options on store shelves because there won't be enough people who need those products. This is the best time in history to be disabled. Even blind people can use smart phones. But that's only because there are enough disabled people to justify the research and expense. So it's selfish to want more disabled people, but the more people with those disabilities, the more resources available for those people.
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Feb 15, 2016 02:59
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Atasnaya Vaflja posted:It's a good thing that none of the disabilities being discussed are "severe" then, huh? There's nothing worse than someone who is a high-functioning autistic---or a self-diagnosed autistic---bitching about how treating autism is the worst thing in the world and we need to accept them for who they are. Meanwhile, I go to work with children with autism that are gouging out their eyes and biting people. There's something so selfish about thinking since you are successful despite your disability (often because you received treatment for it) that others shouldn't get help. Krispy Kareem posted:Wanting your disability to continue is selfish, but it's a rational kind of selfish. I don't think its necessarily rational, but its at least understandable.
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Feb 15, 2016 03:09
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Dienes posted:There's nothing worse than someone who is a high-functioning autistic---or a self-diagnosed autistic---bitching about how treating autism is the worst thing in the world and we need to accept them for who they are. Meanwhile, I go to work with children with autism that are gouging out their eyes and biting people. There's something so selfish about thinking since you are successful despite your disability (often because you received treatment for it) that others shouldn't get help. Literally no one is saying or has ever said that others shouldn't get help. The discussion is about eliminating it, which edges on the discussion of eugenics. Also, a lot of the discussion has been about things like deafness and blindness, which are certainly not necessarily severe disabilities. I suggest you read Dogfish's post.
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Feb 15, 2016 03:20
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