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rudatron posted:They defined anti-capitalism wrong. They lied. I know that. They simply replaced the definition of the capitalist class with "International Jewry" and proletariat with the "German Nation" or the "Italian Nation" and the "producer" (populist producerism) that was being exploited. In practice, like Leninism, they were less interested in transforming the coercive relationship between worker and capital and more interested in "overthrowing and supplanting the capitalist class". This is specifically related to Strasserism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism quote:The Bolsheviks learned the lessons on butchering and murdering their way to power from the way the Paris Commune was 'handled'. I have no qualms with the fact that they had to fight but who they fought. Their eliminationist policies destroyed worker led movements alongside Tsarists and various Western armies. That should be seen as a problem. quote:The fact that they actually succeeded in getting power, independently, and that every movement that did the same basically copied them, tells you that that kind of brutality is a necessity of any civil war. Had they not done what they did, they would have been butchered and murdered by the Whites. You want to see where the non-Bolshevik approach gets you, look at Allende - he got power democratically, got killed in a CIA coup. All honor to Allende, he did the right thing, but history never honors the right. Did you read about Trotsky's campaign against the Revolutionary Insurrectionist Army of Ukraine and how Nestor basically saved the Soviet effort against the Whites? His efforts were rewarded with the destruction of his army and his exile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno Their methods were not something to celebrate. There is a lot of room to maneuver between Allende and Bolshevik terror. quote:Compare that with your bugbear, Molotov-Ribbentrop. Stalin requested to join the Axis powers. He was only saved from history because Hitler made arrangements for invasion regardless of the negotiations. Stalin went on to write a book about how it was a ruse to give Hitler a yes or no decision and gauge the response to their relationship as allies but the minutes from the talks show that everyone is fairly convinced that the offer was genuine, including the negotiators Ribbentrop and Friedrich Werner von der Schulenburg, the German diplomat who was later executed for treason because he was unhappy that Hitler didn't follow through with the alliance they were all pushing for. So we were saved from a historical nightmare of a Soviet Axis alliance by Hitler's fear and distrust of Stalin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClR9tcpKZec This doesn't even cover the fact that the German Communist Party, through Stalin's orders was responsible for the Nazis winning in the first place. I wonder if an anarchist Soviet Federation would have maneuvered so close to an alliance with fascism. quote:The only reason the Western powers allowed the Fascists to grow, is because they saw them as a bulwark against the USSR - Molotov-Ribbentrop was Stalin's only way out, to try and build up the USSR before everyone invaded again. gently caress, here's a quote by Churchill, talking about how smart and snappy all those Fascists in Italy looked, because at least they weren't Communist! I am not disputing that there was a serious flirtation with fascism or that Western Powers tried to stop the Russian Revolution. But if it was so blatant they would have joined the anti Comintern pact in 1935. Instead they worked with the Soviets to quell the Anarchists in Spain. http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/scw/anarchist.htm Lenin exacerbated the invasion by storming the Constituent Assembly and alienating the Social Revolutionary and Menshevik allies. His goal was to seize power and exclude ideological allies and he succeeded. So it was successful but it should not be emulated. quote:Wow, what a great guy, totally someone the Bolsheviks could trust! Molotov-Ribbentrop was a practical necessity. Pretending otherwise is a delusion. It was a necessity in the sense that the Soviets wanted to delay war as long as possible but it was not a necessity from the point of fearing an invasion considering their offer of an alliance to the British/French and rejecting a later offer from those same powers in favor of allying with Germany. The Soviets were not in any danger of invasion after Stalin started cultivating an alliance with the British in the 30s through a grand bargain of opposing revolutionary action in Europe for protection of their assets overseas. quote:The great tragedy of leftists is that they're beautiful people on the inside, but they never act ruthlessly enough. Rightists are more than happy to, which is why history is filled with their failed adventures and neuroticism. Militarism and expansionism aren't some kind of calling card of fascism, they're practical necessities in a world of actors that will do exactly the same thing back to you, when they have the chance. There are ways to be ruthless and still retain democratic action. The point is that history is there to be learned from and venerating something without critically analyzing its flaws and poor delivery of the right results should not be considered some sort of idealist puritanism but a necessity to make a correct decision in the future.
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Feb 15, 2016 21:38
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Peel posted:the question this raises is why would we expect this new formation to take the form of a socialist programme rather than a sanders- or even corbyn-esque reformist tendency. the ideological ground is there - austerity for example is excoriated by much of mainstream economics itself, including publicly prominent figures like krugman. there's also the threat that the right will be able to secure a critical mass of disaffected white support, though this is weaker just due to the demographic numbers in the united states. even if you think a keynesian programme would fail, that failure could then lead to a right-wing reaction as it would be seen as a failure of the 'left'. I can't speak much to how it will try to do that, but here are my own thoughts. 1. Even social movements that failed - I'm thinking specifically of Occupy here - even those movements were still valuable and important, and I don't think some other formation could have really taken its place, given the time and circumstances. At the same time, when it was over, there were connections and organizations and stuff that formed in its wake that were importand and had greater anti-imperialist/anti-captalist acomplishments. 2. Many of the same social forces that brough Corbyn to an astounding victory and that may do the same for Sanders, are the same social forces that feed harder and more radical leftist forms. As for beating the right wing, it comes down to organizing, which is its own animal I can't pretend to understand. But I think we are on the verge of a historic opportunity for the Left. People have problems that can't be solved the old way so they are more willing than ever to consider previously-unthinkable alternatives. And the existence of movements like BLM present challenges that the liberal order has basically no way to resolve. Sorry its not a pat answer I guess.
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Feb 16, 2016 05:57
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Top City Homo posted:The point is that history is there to be learned from and venerating something without critically analyzing its flaws and poor delivery of the right results should not be considered some sort of idealist puritanism but a necessity to make a correct decision in the future. I wonder if you are able to critically analyse the flaws of Nestor Makhno. You seem to hero worship him so I doubt it.
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Feb 16, 2016 17:14
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Check it out:  its fascism.jpg
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Feb 16, 2016 22:56
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Man, those homeless rent-seekers, they're the real bad guys.
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Feb 17, 2016 02:06
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Enjoy posted:I wonder if you are able to critically analyse the flaws of Nestor Makhno. You seem to hero worship him so I doubt it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGRt7Fq86_4
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Feb 17, 2016 03:21
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Check it out: what's a "crony"?
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Feb 17, 2016 03:22
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Beats me. It's real libertarian propaganda trying to defuse class consciousness.
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Feb 17, 2016 04:17
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A crony is a friend, but in a bad way.
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Feb 17, 2016 04:24
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Friends don't let friends become cronies.
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Feb 17, 2016 04:27
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fascism speaksquote:I read a comment today on one of our posts from a communist who believes that we are "on the same side" in so much as we are as opposed to super capitalists, internationalists globalism ie Jewish corporations banking and globalisation something he failed to mention, as we are to communism/cultural marxism etc.
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Feb 17, 2016 06:06
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Nobody ever said a communist can't be retarded.
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Feb 17, 2016 06:34
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Top City Homo posted:fascism speaks "Identity politics is blinding you to the real threat: capitalism" - a fascist, according to a moron
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Feb 17, 2016 06:47
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Top City Homo posted:
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Feb 17, 2016 14:42
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Let's take a break from this argument about the "crimes" of Russia. Like Nikita Khrushchev, we can rewrite history and eventually change a thread that promotes communism into a thread ready for This whole tangent started when I came in on page 11 and posted some really profound reading to correct Western lies about the Holodomor. I also posted a paragraph from the mouth of anarcho-syndicalist presidential hopeful Bernie Sanders. quote:Now, what I think is that right now we have got to do our best in developing positive relations with Russia. But let's be clear: Russia's aggressive actions in the Crimea and in Ukraine have brought about a situation where President Obama and NATO -- correctly, I believe -- are saying, you know what, we're going to have to beef up our troop level in that part of the world to tell Putin that his aggressiveness is not going to go unmatched, that he is not going to get away with aggressive action. swampman fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Feb 17, 2016 |
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Feb 17, 2016 17:08
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Ah poo poo let me just drain out the non-substantive parts and try to boldquote:we're going to have to beef up our troop level in that part of the world
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Feb 17, 2016 17:12
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I definitely agree that more American soldiers in Europe isn't going to do anything to solve Russian intervention in Ukrainian politics, or the problems with the Ukrainian economy that ostensibly caused Maidan in the first place. As if ordinary Ukrainians would be better off with Merkel ripping them off, rather than Putin. But more American soldiers in Europe and an emboldened NATO could bring us closer to a catastrophic third world war, so maybe I am being too hard on ol' Bernard.
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Feb 17, 2016 17:25
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putins nationalist kleptocracy is falling apart at the seams from low oil prices Looks like he is basing his new economic policy on an advanced version of Norks threatening to level Seoul to get access to hard currency
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Feb 17, 2016 21:30
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Top City Homo posted:fascism speaks please post more things a random communist supposedly said on a fascist blogspot comment, according to a fascist; it's a great argumentative strategy.
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Feb 18, 2016 02:01
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According to this racist and anti-semetic blogspot page, "Smash Cultural Marxism", even a communist in the comments page thinks fascism and communism are the same. Ignore the fact that even the fascist reacts to this patent falsehood with disgust and hostility, this excellent source material goes a long way to proving my point as opposed to the extensive academic literature taking the opposite position.
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Feb 18, 2016 02:07
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that looked more like a clumsy attempt to convert the guy away from fascism to me anyway
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Feb 18, 2016 02:48
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The best way to convert a Fascist is with 9x17mm.
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Feb 18, 2016 02:55
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The best way to convert a Fascist is with 9x17mm. is that what they call a 2x4 in metric?
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Feb 18, 2016 03:13
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Imperial units are counter-revolutionary
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Feb 18, 2016 03:45
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The best way to convert a Fascist is with 9x17mm. swampman posted:is that what they call a 2x4 in metric? Bob le Moche posted:Imperial units are counter-revolutionary  Great posting guys, appreciate the chuckles.
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Feb 18, 2016 04:15
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The Makhno thing interests me a lot. Are there any Russian Stalinists here. Please help a comrade out and look this up for me
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Feb 18, 2016 04:35
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Makhno's army used to post notices all over their territory that read "This Army does not serve any political party, any power, any dictatorship." Then they would suppress all political activity of any kind, like organizing for elections. If you read about the Kemalist military in Turkey especially after the 1980 coup you get a pretty good sense of what that looks like.
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Feb 18, 2016 13:59
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1mpper posted:please post more things a random communist supposedly said on a fascist blogspot comment, according to a fascist; it's a great argumentative strategy. *throws "Mass Psychology of Fascism" in your fat face*
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Feb 18, 2016 17:12
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swampman posted:Makhno's army used to post notices all over their territory that read "This Army does not serve any political party, any power, any dictatorship." Then they would suppress all political activity of any kind, like organizing for elections. If you read about the Kemalist military in Turkey especially after the 1980 coup you get a pretty good sense of what that looks like. They did not suppress elections. What they suppressed is anyone, including bolshevik assholes trying to muscle out other libertarian socialist groups and monopolize the communal soviets in the Free Territory. The Free Territory consisted of an array of unions, village committees, soviets, free labor societies, communes, and commissions that managed various aspects of society, filling the vacuum of governance. Land was expropriated and put at the disposal of the peasants and workers who practiced self management. Peasants and workers formed communes and management was elected and accountable. The soviets stood above the communes and unions and its task was to execute the decisions taken by these organs. Soviets usually had chairmen. Political parties were not allowed to implement their party program in these soviets unless workers accepted each point independently. The Bolsheviks and their apologists wrongly interpreted this to mean parties were banned. Bolsheviks served with other libertarian socialist groups in the soviets under their party names if they so chose. Only when they Bolsheviks tried to abolish free soviets and seize power did they get kicked out of towns. http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-arshinov-history-of-the-makhnovist-movement-1918-1921#toc1
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Feb 18, 2016 17:44
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Top City Homo posted:*throws "Mass Psychology of Fascism" in your fat face* quote:Suppression of the natural sexuality in the child, particularly of its genital sexuality, makes the child apprehensive, shy, obedient, afraid of authority, good and adjusted in the authoritarian sense; it paralyzes the rebellious forces because any rebellion is laden with anxiety; it produces, by inhibiting sexual curiosity and sexual thinking in the child, a general inhibition of thinking and of critical faculties. In brief, the goal of sexual suppression is that of producing an individual who is adjusted to the authoritarian order and who will submit to it in spite of all misery and degradation. At first the child has to submit to the structure of the authoritarian miniature state, the family; this makes it capable of later subordination to the general authoritarian system. The formation of the authoritarian structure takes place through the anchoring of sexual inhibition and anxiety. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKQ3ZNQ_O8&t=17s
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Feb 18, 2016 17:46
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bad news, comrades. i've just discovered joseph stalin got his salsa from new york city. in light of this revelation i have given up marxism-leninism. anarchists ftw
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Feb 18, 2016 19:23
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Theodore Adorno came to similar conclusions but let's just dismiss writings by one of the more important psychologists in the 20th century because of an out of context thoughtcrime about sexual social mores.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:07
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Homework Explainer posted:bad news, comrades. i've just discovered joseph stalin got his salsa from new york city. in light of this revelation i have given up marxism-leninism. anarchists ftw I'm glad you abandoned the National Bolshevik dictator, nazi ally and mass murderer, Joseph Stalin for anarchism god bles
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Feb 18, 2016 21:19
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Top City Homo posted:Theodore Adorno came to similar conclusions but let's just dismiss writings by one of the more important psychologists in the 20th century because of an out of context thoughtcrime about sexual social mores. Psychoanalysis is indeed historically important, but as a school of psychology it's a big wet hippo shart.
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Feb 18, 2016 21:40
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much like marxism 
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Feb 18, 2016 22:10
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GunnerJ posted:much like marxism Marxism is cool and good
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Feb 18, 2016 22:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Psychoanalysis is indeed historically important, but as a school of psychology it's a big wet hippo shart. indeed it is known that Thetans cause fascism
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Feb 18, 2016 22:15
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Top City Homo posted:Theodore Adorno came to similar conclusions but let's just dismiss writings by one of the more important psychologists in the 20th century because of an out of context thoughtcrime about sexual social mores. have you actually read any adorno, because one of the major points of the authoritarian personality is that it is predisposed to right-wing politics and fascism. he would utterly reject your idiotic claim that actually existing socialism is at all similar with fascism. in fact, adorno and marcuse would be far more likely, and in fact do make the claim, that liberal capitalism takes a character far closer to fascism; that industrial capitalism takes on a "totalitarian" aspect. all of this of course ignores the fact that the frankfurt school is a western and revisionist school of marxism anyway. but even in their criticisms of stalinist bureaucracy they wouldn't make such a blatant mistake as to equate it to fascism. even if you accepted the false cold war rhetoric of "totalitarianism," the character of stalinism and fascism are utterly different. why am i even bothering, read a drat book not written by a cold war liberal with a vested interest in conflating the two, read the people you're condemning in their own words before casting dumb aspersions.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:35
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Top City Homo posted:indeed it is known that Thetans cause fascism fascism emerges from the the material conditions of a society's mode of production edit: psychoanalytic marxism is cool and good though
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Feb 18, 2016 23:25
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Speaking of National Bolshevism, what do you guys think of its modern incarnation under Edward Limonov? My dad seems to like them.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:54
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