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One of the biggest issues with GoT is that it ruined a lot of major characters like Stannis, Davos, Ramsay, Sansa, Prince Doran, Sand Snakes, etc. So far the Expanse has nailed all the casting (especially two of the most popular characters, Amos and Avasarala) and as long as Bobbie's done well they've got the characters in the bag. The Expanse's plot is a lot thinner than ASoIaF and much easier to translate to TV/movies, and since you're not stuck in the heads of lovely POV characters like Elvi it's going to be a lot more palatable. Personally I like a lot of the changes they've made to the television series since you're not caught up in the POV gimmick and it makes the entire show seem more fleshed out - and having just finished Nemesis Games it's amazing how much they've incorporated from the entire series so far.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:29
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Bobbie's going to be The Rock with a wig.
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Feb 16, 2016 01:04
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Having listened to the first audiobook this weekend, there are lots of little changes but every single one I can think of had a pretty decent reason for happening. Honestly the main difference isn't even really a 'change' per se -- it's just way clearer in the books that there are pretty noticeable physical differences between Belters and Earthers. Some of the nationalistic belter pride angles work a lot better when you know that you should be able to pick belters from earthers in a lineup with pretty decent accuracy just from bone structure. Not much to be done about that besides hire a bunch of people with Marfan syndrome, though. Like, Naomi is explicitly around 2 meters tall in the book. She should tower over Holden. E: Main thing I'd like from the show is that the space battles in the book have much more in the way of 'we fired missiles, let's wait half an hour and see if anything happens' and travel times are a lot more explicitly long in days and weeks. That doesn't necessarily make for great action-packed TV excitement, but it drives home the 'stuff in space works differently and not on a scale humans are built for' that comes up in a lot of near-future sci fi but the show sort of lacks. NmareBfly fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 01:35
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I think it's better that the TV version of the Roci crew don't just blindly follow Holden as quickly as they do in the book. I know they had years of working together on the Cant, but there were also tons of other crew on the Cant, and they didn't have much time to show us any of that in the show. Holden having to earn their trust feels better to me, especially with how idealistically rash he is. I don't think it was done simply to ratchet up contrived dramatic tension. (Though I will say I'm surprised they're introducing the Naomi (potential book spoiler) OPA stuff as early as they have. Maybe I'm mis-remembering the books, but I really don't even remember any of that until Nemesis Games.)
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Feb 16, 2016 03:16
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Longbaugh01 posted:I think it's better that the TV version of the Roci crew don't just blindly follow Holden as quickly as they do in the book. I know they had years of working together on the Cant, but there were also tons of other crew on the Cant, and they didn't have much time to show us any of that in the show. You're not. Everyone on the Cant had a past, but it wasn't until book 5 that we heard about what Naomi was running from
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Feb 16, 2016 05:00
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How come the battleships don't deploy small fighter ships like in battlestar galactica? During the fighting most of the marines are just sitting around. Instead they could enter the fight flying their own battle pinnace.
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Feb 16, 2016 05:41
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DrPlump posted:How come the battleships don't deploy small fighter ships like in battlestar galactica? During the fighting most of the marines are just sitting around. Instead they could enter the fight flying their own battle pinnace. Well first, the capital ships aren't as big as you think they are. Especially when it comes to empty internal space. Secondly, marine doesn't mean pilot. Alex was in the Mars Navy specifically as a pilot. Thirdly, I think a ship in the Expanse universe needs to be a certain size (Like Roci/gunship size) to have a big enough reactor to power weapons systems. Though someone who can remember more about The Razorback racing pinnace can remind me if it had any weapons systems. Edit: vvv This too, though he specifically referenced BSG, and on some level it's a question of semantics. But in The Expanse universe ships are classified more strictly along Earth ocean navy lines as opposed to BSG. Longbaugh01 fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 05:50
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Battleships don't carry fighters.
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Feb 16, 2016 05:51
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What can a fighter do that a missile can't besides get the person inside killed the first time it has to do a high G maneuver?
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Feb 16, 2016 05:58
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NmareBfly posted:What can a fighter do that a missile can't besides get the person inside killed the first time it has to do a high G maneuver? Basically, this. The Expanse tries to treat it's sci-fi elements as 'hard' as possible and human-piloted fighter craft don't really fit into that kind of sci-fi.
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Feb 16, 2016 06:01
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Inertial Dampeners 
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Feb 16, 2016 06:06
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They don't have those. Thus the drugs to withstand high-G.
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Feb 16, 2016 06:41
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Feb 16, 2016 06:44
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Longbaugh01 posted:They don't have those. Thus the drugs to withstand high-G. "the juice" doesn't even do that really, it doesn't prevent internal hemorrhages and other health issues that might occur due to high G stresses, it mostly just forces the body to relax which makes it less likely to exacerbate the damages while also preventing the pilot from losing consciousness.
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Feb 16, 2016 12:01
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emanresu tnuocca posted:"the juice" doesn't even do that really, it doesn't prevent internal hemorrhages and other health issues that might occur due to high G stresses, it mostly just forces the body to relax which makes it less likely to exacerbate the damages while also preventing the pilot from losing consciousness. Cool, but my point was they don't have anything like Star Wars inertial dampeners, which was apparently just a jokepost anyway, so who cares.
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Feb 16, 2016 12:04
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Longbaugh01 posted:Well first, the capital ships aren't as big as you think they are. Especially when it comes to empty internal space. Honestly the better question is why the ships have such a significant marine complement at all. With engagements beginning hours before a physical rendezvous is possible it's difficult to picture a situation where anything but the most suicidally determined enemy actually closes enough to put a boarding party into you. Even with six ships that obviously had some technological advantages, the mercs only had two remaining by the time they closed with the Donnager, and it's not like they managed to capture it anyway. Those marines are taking up space and mass that could be weapons or other systems. Even stranger the show depicts the Donnager as having the Roci in a completely internal storage area that could have probably housed another ship of her size at least. It almost seems like the Donnager could have scrambled a few gunships for added point defense and torpedoes.
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Feb 16, 2016 15:52
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akulanization posted:Honestly the better question is why the ships have such a significant marine complement at all. With engagements beginning hours before a physical rendezvous is possible it's difficult to picture a situation where anything but the most suicidally determined enemy actually closes enough to put a boarding party into you. Even with six ships that obviously had some technological advantages, the mercs only had two remaining by the time they closed with the Donnager, and it's not like they managed to capture it anyway. Those marines are taking up space and mass that could be weapons or other systems. Because in the universe the authors have created, they want boarding actions to be a thing. There are assault shuttles and breaching charges and ships getting captured by boarders with guns, and in such an environment of course really important capital ships are going to have troops on board both to execute and defend against those boarding actions. How are you going to inspect other ships, as Mars is wont to do, without being able to send some guys over to it with guns to inspect it? Thus, Marines.
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Feb 16, 2016 16:39
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Phanatic posted:Because in the universe the authors have created, they want boarding actions to be a thing. There are assault shuttles and breaching charges and ships getting captured by boarders with guns, and in such an environment of course really important capital ships are going to have troops on board both to execute and defend against those boarding actions. Oh I mean I like boarding actions and attempts to rest control of the ship from the enemy, that stuff is cool and entertaining. I'm more questioning how reasonable it is in conjunction with everything else we have seen. Gunships like the Tachi or the Roci certainly have a reason to have an outsized marine complement when they're docking with ships and doing inspections, but does the Donnager? A ship that it is widely considered suicide to close with, that is almost certainly too big to be used for routine inspections without wasting a ton of money, doesn't really need marines if your fleet has a couple of dedicated assault ships for boarding stations or disabled craft.
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Feb 16, 2016 16:50
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DrPlump posted:How come the battleships don't deploy small fighter ships like in battlestar galactica? During the fighting most of the marines are just sitting around. Instead they could enter the fight flying their own battle pinnace. Drones are just as effective and take up less space and don't need life support systems. And if they get pew pew'd nobody dies. And we have seen in The Expanse that they do use gun-equipped drones in space. Against large and fast moving enemy ships though they're probably just not very practical.
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Feb 16, 2016 16:55
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akulanization posted:Oh I mean I like boarding actions and attempts to rest control of the ship from the enemy, that stuff is cool and entertaining. I'm more questioning how reasonable it is in conjunction with everything else we have seen. Gunships like the Tachi or the Roci certainly have a reason to have an outsized marine complement when they're docking with ships and doing inspections, but does the Donnager? A ship that it is widely considered suicide to close with, that is almost certainly too big to be used for routine inspections without wasting a ton of money, doesn't really need marines if your fleet has a couple of dedicated assault ships for boarding stations or disabled craft. My impression is that the series takes place at least a couple decades into a cold war situation. Everyone wants to show power but nobody wants an incident. That means that while Donnager can blow up anything it pleases, it really doesn't want to. Blowing stuff up can make a cold war turn hot and that's a scary idea, so the big shipboard weapons become leverage you use to force someone to let your Marines aboard. Why have Marines at all, instead of just naval boarding parties? Because if the boarders aren't badasses in close quarters battle and space ops, then your boarders can turn into hostages really quick.
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Feb 16, 2016 17:04
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Traditionally that's what Marines are for, you don't run the risk of losing valuable crew and have dedicated attacks dogs who could shoot.
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Feb 16, 2016 17:14
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akulanization posted:It almost seems like the Donnager could have scrambled a few gunships for added point defense and torpedoes. Hubris is a motherfucker like that.
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Feb 16, 2016 17:21
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Winding up on a boarding party is drawing a short loving straw. The casualty rate for boarding operations in this setting is something like 70%.tooterfish posted:They could've. That's one of the Tachi's roles in fact. Yeah, the reason they were able to book it out of the Donnager the way they did is that the Tachi was a hot standby. Whoops.
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Feb 16, 2016 17:24
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tooterfish posted:They could've. That's one of the Tachi's roles in fact. Jesus that's some strong rear end institutional arrogance. Zorak of Michigan posted:My impression is that the series takes place at least a couple decades into a cold war situation. Everyone wants to show power but nobody wants an incident. That means that while Donnager can blow up anything it pleases, it really doesn't want to. Blowing stuff up can make a cold war turn hot and that's a scary idea, so the big shipboard weapons become leverage you use to force someone to let your Marines aboard. The thing is that in a cold war the ship that's actually asking you to allow them to board doesn't have to have the big guns on it. The Donnager's guns are leverage even if the Donnager isn't present at all, since the implication is that you can let the gunship send it's people in or you can have a battleship show up and launch missiles. I don't see how the Donnager is served by having a lot of marines aboard except for dick waving. I'm not sure that building ships to be good at intimidation is a good strategy if you ever wind up actually fighting.
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Feb 16, 2016 17:30
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akulanization posted:Jesus that's some strong rear end institutional arrogance.
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Feb 16, 2016 17:38
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When you're aboard a vessel that is supposed to be untouchable it's very understandable how to the command staff could get complacent and repeatedly underestimate the threat, particularly with the donnager they also fell victim to simple subtrefuge where the vessels were approaching with only one thruster burning fooling the donnager into thinking there was only one. Of course the whole thing is very very different but it's an interesting parallel to the Yom Kippur War - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War#Lack_of_Israeli_pre-emptive_attack
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Feb 16, 2016 18:02
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The Donnager's design may well be suboptimal for the needs exposed by the plot of the series, but if so, I think it's very believably so. History shows a great many situations where a long gap between wars led nations to create weapons and doctrines that did not work when tested in combat.
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Feb 16, 2016 19:04
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Why have Marines at all, instead of just naval boarding parties? Because if the boarders aren't badasses in close quarters battle and space ops, then your boarders can turn into hostages really quick. Every time I read up on the F-35B, I ask myself the same question. I ordered and read the first book (all of it), after watching the first season. loving awesome -- great book, and filled in a lot of world-building too. The TV adaptation is amazing -- I agree with basically everything they did, with the exception (like many here have said) of interpersonal dynamics changing -- guess that's to increase drama? I gave in and ordered the rest of the books, so I guess I'm going to get ahead of the show now. 
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Feb 16, 2016 19:43
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What's wrong with getting ahead of the show? Besides, it's probably going to be 5-10 years before the show catches up with the books (if it even lasts long enough to get there).
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Feb 16, 2016 22:12
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Why have Marines at all, instead of just naval boarding parties? Because if the boarders aren't badasses in close quarters battle and space ops, then your boarders can turn into hostages really quick. I haven't read the books, but I agree [with those saying it] that marine boarding parties seem antiquated in this universe. The only real explanation I considered is that it both frees up living space on Mars and benefits the Martian economy. Bookreaders: Is Mars overcrowded? And is the Martian Navy/Marine Corps big enough for that to be a viable alternative? Iseeyouseemeseeyou fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 23:27
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How many space conflicts have there been in the world of The Expanse before the show / first book starts? If it started as just Earth colonizing Mars and the Belt, and then a cold war broke out, it could simply be that there haven't been any major engagements in space to really test or prove the best strategy, and it could be that various militaries are in disagreement or unsure what the actual best approach would be, so they've got answers for a few different possibilities and they'll adjust as they see what works. The Donnager clearly believed themselves to be mostly invincible from their fighting with rebels and pirates in the belt, so it could be that fighting small in-equipped enemies are the only conflicts they've had, and they're not actually doing things in the best manner.
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Feb 16, 2016 23:44
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I didn't get the impression that they had a ton of marines on board anyways. There was the squad that took Holden and crew out, a couple on the bridge and a couple guarding them in the cells. You can also hear some fighting in the distance during their escape. That's maybe a platoon total and that seems totally reasonable to have on the flagship of your navy. As for why didn't they deploy the Roci or anything else during the attack. The Mars Captain was clearly pretty confident that her ship could take out 1 incoming "belter" ship. By the time it split into multiple ships and starting firing rail guns at them it was probably way too late to deploy much of anything.
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Feb 16, 2016 23:53
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We haven't had any real GoT-like book spoiler freakouts and people are asking directly so I'm not going to blackbar this. From the Donnager fight: '"Gauss turrets firing. poo poo. It's CQB," Alex said in awe. In the history of the Coalition, no capital ship had ever gotten into a close-quarters battle. But here they were, firing the ship's big cannons, which meant that the range was sufficiently short that a nonguided weapon was viable. Hundreds or even dozens of kilometers, not thousands. Somehow the Belt ships had survived Donnager's torpedo barrage.' So yeah it's literally never happened and this stuff hasn't been tested for real. Against smaller ships sure, but capital ships are used to being able to swat anything that looks at them sideways before they even get into railgun range. Marines are for boarding actions, and I think it makes fine sense to have them. They're the only possible way you can capture a ship or station without blowing it up, and there are a ton of reasons why you might want to avoid doing that. I think the main thing these ships are worried about the majority of the time is police actions and dealing with crap like the station that revolted and got massacred in flashback. For that you need boots. If you're fighting a pirate ship you just blow it away, but if there's useful infrastructure you send people in to get it back. While nosing around for that quote I found this. Is... that  ?
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Feb 17, 2016 00:05
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johnsonrod posted:I didn't get the impression that they had a ton of marines on board anyways. There was the squad that took Holden and crew out, a couple on the bridge and a couple guarding them in the cells. You can also hear some fighting in the distance during their escape. That's maybe a platoon total and that seems totally reasonable to have on the flagship of your navy. I'm pretty sure that they knew it was multiple ships when the "ship" they were tracking executed turnover, which was before they ever entered missile range let alone CQB. I'm also reasonably sure that they had more than a platoon since the Tachi can carry a platoon by itself, the fact of the matter is that the Donnager is the size of a skyscraper and we kind of deliberately don't have a good look at the boarding action (other than that it seemingly did not go in the martian's favor). NmareBfly posted:Marines are for boarding actions, and I think it makes fine sense to have them. They're the only possible way you can capture a ship or station without blowing it up, and there are a ton of reasons why you might want to avoid doing that. I think the main thing these ships are worried about the majority of the time is police actions and dealing with crap like the station that revolted and got massacred in flashback. For that you need boots. If you're fighting a pirate ship you just blow it away, but if there's useful infrastructure you send people in to get it back. Sure, and for patrol craft that makes sense. But for a battleship? I mean presumably if you are going to kick over someone else's sandcastle you could bring some kind of dedicated assault craft that was built to insert boarders into a hostile environment. But if you are being boarded you've already lost. The only reason a military adversary would board you instead of destroying you outright is if the battle was already decided, in which case you may as well use the self destruct because no matter how hard you fight deck by deck if will not change the possible outcomes.
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Feb 17, 2016 00:18
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akulanization posted:Sure, and for patrol craft that makes sense. But for a battleship? I mean presumably if you are going to kick over someone else's sandcastle you could bring some kind of dedicated assault craft that was built to insert boarders into a hostile environment. But if you are being boarded you've already lost. The only reason a military adversary would board you instead of destroying you outright is if the battle was already decided, in which case you may as well use the self destruct because no matter how hard you fight deck by deck if will not change the possible outcomes. "Battleship" is a real-world term that doesn't translate exactly into science fiction. The future of the books is not one that's so resource-rich that it has bigass fleets traveling into groups; *everyone* is spread thinner than they like, and there isn't a clear delineation of responsibilities between patrol craft and battleship. The latter, sure, it'll be bigger and have more/bigger guns/torpedoes etc., but when it's the ship that's nearby it's the one that's acting like a patrol ship by patrolling. It's not like it's got a battle group in support of it, it's out there on its own, so "cruiser" would be a more accurate naval analogy, and yeah, those do things like patrol.
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Feb 17, 2016 00:44
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akulanization posted:Sure, and for patrol craft that makes sense. But for a battleship? I mean presumably if you are going to kick over someone else's sandcastle you could bring some kind of dedicated assault craft that was built to insert boarders into a hostile environment. But if you are being boarded you've already lost. The only reason a military adversary would board you instead of destroying you outright is if the battle was already decided, in which case you may as well use the self destruct because no matter how hard you fight deck by deck if will not change the possible outcomes. The Donnager probably had some of those boarding craft, alongside the Tachi. I'm not sure that I see the problem here. I think ships, especially giant expensive ones, need to be able to fill multiple roles. When you consider that travel time from place to place can be measured in weeks, it'd be relatively important to have a single ship you can station somewhere that can take care of whatever the hell problem crops up -- if the Donnager has a few platoons of marines on standby, that means it can throw some best-in-class punches in capital ship combat (which basically hasn't happened in living memory) and still be perfectly usable if bumscrew station gets taken over by extremists and it's the closest ship at hand. Or just have people to stand guard on relief missions so that no hungry belter ends up stealing more beans then they're allowed. Since it's been cold war for a long time, it's not really explicit what some of these big mean ships are for, exactly. Besides to show off. I think the problem might just be calling it a 'battleship' to begin with. I dunno that ship classes in this universe translate exactly to navy ones, and the universe has a lot of great background detail but it's mostly not mega crunchy military jargon.
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Feb 17, 2016 00:46
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Agreed. I assumed that they sent Donnager because it was the nearest ship, which implies that battleships go out and patrol just like everything else. If it hadn't been the closest ship, I don't know why they would have sent it. Anything with weapons could overawe a shuttle.
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Feb 17, 2016 01:03
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akulanization posted:I'm pretty sure that they knew it was multiple ships when the "ship" they were tracking executed turnover, which was before they ever entered missile range let alone CQB. I'm also reasonably sure that they had more than a platoon since the Tachi can carry a platoon by itself, the fact of the matter is that the Donnager is the size of a skyscraper and we kind of deliberately don't have a good look at the boarding action (other than that it seemingly did not go in the martian's favor). Sure, they saw the belter ship split into a few different ships but that's still just "a few belter ships". You can even see the 2 gunners or whatever making smug remarks on the bridge. No one was worried at all. Then they start to discover that they're not actually belter ships and the lovely belter missiles they're shooting at them are actually using guidance systems that are more advanced than their own. They still have the rail guns so "let's finish this and go home!" Oh poo poo, they have rail guns too and within minutes of that they're in CQB. It was a progression that was planned perfectly by the unknown ships to take advantage of Martian arrogance. By the time they realize they're in trouble they were seconds away from being boarded. I agree that the term "battleship" probably doesn't really mean the same thing in The Expanse universe as it does for us. The fact that they have a ship like the Roci on board is a pretty good indication that their engaging in patrol and inspection like activities. The Captain even talks about it at one point how she's been on patrols to keep the belters in line. If there's any chance you're going to have to send a boarding party to a belter ship you're going to want highly trained marines on board. If you look at Navy ships today it's actually the smaller patrol or escort type ones that have a duel role crew for boarding actions, since they might not have the space for marines. Larger Navy ships will most likely have marines on board.
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Feb 17, 2016 01:32
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Zorak of Michigan posted:Agreed. I assumed that they sent Donnager because it was the nearest ship, which implies that battleships go out and patrol just like everything else. If it hadn't been the closest ship, I don't know why they would have sent it. Anything with weapons could overawe a shuttle. Honestly they might not have sent the closest ship period but instead sent the closest ship with intelligence specialists aboard. I could see them wanting to be able to interrogate the survivors with a professional on a ship with a real brig. johnsonrod posted:Sure, they saw the belter ship split into a few different ships but that's still just "a few belter ships". You can even see the 2 gunners or whatever making smug remarks on the bridge. No one was worried at all. Then they start to discover that they're not actually belter ships and the lovely belter missiles they're shooting at them are actually using guidance systems that are more advanced than their own. They still have the rail guns so "let's finish this and go home!" Oh poo poo, they have rail guns too and within minutes of that they're in CQB. Personally I think I'd get wary the first time I learned my enemy had pulled a fast one on me, no reason to enter into a fight that the other side obviously thinks it can win with one hand tied behind your back. Battleship probably isn't the right word for what the Donnager is, but the Donnager is huge and expensive. I'm not sure what's going on in the background that the MCRN would risk a ship that must have been very time consuming and expensive to build on duties that a ship or two a fraction of the size, cost, and crew complement could do. You'd think they would have some kind of overall fleet doctrine and perhaps more specialized ships since even if you are in a cold war, you have to look like you are prepared if the shooting starts. Phanatic posted:"Battleship" is a real-world term that doesn't translate exactly into science fiction. The future of the books is not one that's so resource-rich that it has bigass fleets traveling into groups; *everyone* is spread thinner than they like, and there isn't a clear delineation of responsibilities between patrol craft and battleship. The latter, sure, it'll be bigger and have more/bigger guns/torpedoes etc., but when it's the ship that's nearby it's the one that's acting like a patrol ship by patrolling. It's not like it's got a battle group in support of it, it's out there on its own, so "cruiser" would be a more accurate naval analogy, and yeah, those do things like patrol. The only thing that strikes me as weird about organizing like this is that the Donnager was the flagship of the MCRN Jupiter Fleet. If it doesn't have supporting elements then what is the Jupiter Fleet and what meaning is there to being the flagship of a flotilla that doesn't actually maneuver together?
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Feb 17, 2016 02:02
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Well, there are no guarantees either way but this show is also based on a series of novels where the consensus among readers is that the series has maintained a rather consistent level of writing and has so far not turned into poo poo. Wow, really? Because I thought the last two books were poo poo. I'm not going to go into details because this isn't the book barn, but I hope if the show ever reaches that far (unlikely) they change a lot. I do wonder how they'll deal with tactical armour once it shows up. That sort of thing normally gets toned down a lot on TV/Film purely for practicality issues. akulanization posted:The only thing that strikes me as weird about organizing like this is that the Donnager was the flagship of the MCRN Jupiter Fleet. If it doesn't have supporting elements then what is the Jupiter Fleet and what meaning is there to being the flagship of a flotilla that doesn't actually maneuver together? This is a result of TV changes. In the book they don't get surprised by the Donager appearing next to them; it is specifically dispatched from Jupiter in response to their distress signal and they wait for it to arrive. mossyfisk fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Feb 17, 2016 |
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Feb 17, 2016 02:02
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