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Kalman posted:I mean, they're not great but they're not THAT bad. Yeah but while they've faded in recent years, they do have some historical significance to the genre. Not the giant that is Dune but they're not minor works either. And too, Zelazny was very clear that he didn't want anyone else picking up the series either, even in an anthology. So their existence annoys me at least.
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Feb 18, 2016 00:35
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neongrey posted:Yeah but while they've faded in recent years, they do have some historical significance to the genre. Not the giant that is Dune but they're not minor works either. And too, Zelazny was very clear that he didn't want anyone else picking up the series either, even in an anthology. So their existence annoys me at least. I unironically love the Amber books, don't get me wrong. I didn't know he didn't want anyone picking it up, though - makes me said his wishes weren't respected.
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Feb 18, 2016 00:37
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Reason posted:I just finished Windup Girl and I read Water Knife not too long ago. I'm interested if anyone has any more recommendations for similar books(bio-engineering and global warming gone rampant). Would it be right to call it near future speculative fiction? Not even sure if this is the right thread to ask. If you haven't yet, I would recommend reading his book "Pump Six and other short stories" which has a bunch of stories in that same vein (including two in the Wind-up Girl setting.)
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Feb 18, 2016 00:44
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Talking about books that haven't aged well, I recently reread "Midnight at the Well of Souls" by Jack L. Chalker, and boy howdy did that fall flat. I remember it mostly as an adventure across a world filled with different environments and species (which it is). But there is a lot of ham-fisted philosophy, a weird fetish for body-changing and a literal deus ex machina at the end of the book. I may have to continue reading the series to see how deep the well of suck is.
Chronic Reagan fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 01:27
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Fart of Presto posted:Latest genre related book bundle from Humble Bundle: Sci-Fi Classics definitely pay 15 or more dollars for the only goodish books in here when you could just pick them up at a used book shop for like $2 each
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Feb 18, 2016 01:39
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House Louse posted:fritz, you mean the Timeless Beauty got told to use her sedutive wiles for her country and said "gently caress this", right? right? Not in the few more pages I bothered to read past that point.
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Feb 18, 2016 01:53
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FoldOgey posted:Talking about books that haven't aged well, I recently reread "Midnight at the Well of Souls" by Jack L. Chalker, and boy howdy did that fall flat. I remember it mostly as an adventure across a world filled with different environments and species (which it is). But there is a lot of ham-fisted philosophy, a weird fetish for body-changing and a literal deus ex machina at the end of the book. I may have to continue reading the series to see how deep the well of suck is. If you're not a fan of body swapping, you should probably not be reading Jack Chalker. That's his thing.
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Feb 18, 2016 02:05
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NinjaDebugger posted:If you're not a fan of body swapping, you should probably not be reading Jack Chalker. That's his thing. Yeah, loved his stuff as a kid but now when I reread anything, it's for nostalgia. My favorite series of his are the Four Lords of the Diamond books.
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Feb 18, 2016 06:00
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anilEhilated posted:Not really, I recognized most of the events in Sarantium and it still bored me to tears. Powers can at least (usually) create an engaging storyline, with Kay I found I wasn't really interested in the characters or plot. Yeah, I never even bothered with the second Sarantine book, the first left me so cold. The Lions of al-Rassan I really liked, though.
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Feb 18, 2016 13:07
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johnsonrod posted:I was just thinking about that book last week and how I really enjoyed it when I was a teenager. So, I picked up and read A Mote in God's Eye by Niven and Pournelle last week and their writing style has not aged well. The idea was okay but the characters and dialogue were downright awful. The treatment of women is ridiculous of course, but at least Horace Bury gets a much better deal in the sequel.
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Feb 18, 2016 13:16
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NinjaDebugger posted:Wild Cards involves literal corpse buggery and many other awful things, amid which are a few pieces of actual good writing. This is one of the least fair criticisms of Wild Cards ever, because the book you have to pay for is the one where the literal corpse buggerer finally realises that he doesn't need the weird sex rituals to use his powers. Admittedly the free book does contain a clan of Mormon rapists and one of the most hilariously bad sex scenes you'll ever read, in which the protagonist and his girlfriend have the opportunity to become the first couple to gently caress on the Moon and ask the spacecraft pilot to wait outside so they can have some privacy. But that's all in the Michael Cassutt story, which you can skip.
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Feb 18, 2016 14:08
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Kalman posted:I unironically love the Amber books, don't get me wrong. I didn't know he didn't want anyone picking it up, though - makes me said his wishes weren't respected. I also unironically love the Amber books but I don't care much for authors' wishes about other people not writing in 'their' universes--the idea that ideas can be 'owned' or that they should be is something I find really toxic. Zelazny's been dead for like twenty years but Amber is a surprisingly durable creation for all its many flaws. Where would our culture be if Malory said "no I don't want anyone else writing about King Arthur" and people listened to that? I think it would be disrespectful of the man while he was alive, but he doesn't own the path that culture takes in the future, and neither does Disney or anyone else. ETA: Not that I think the bundle looks very good; agree with whatever poster said 'just get the good books used for $2'; I read all the Bester out of the library here. occamsnailfile fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 16:08
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holocaust bloopers posted:I've read a few books by Niven. They're big budget disaster epics with broadly drawn characters that adhere to a strict mold. Lucifer's Hammer was enjoyable, A Mote In God's Eye was fun. Football is a slog of constantly shifting storylines. Many of which are thoroughly boring. I remember really liking Ringworld.
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Feb 18, 2016 17:01
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occamsnailfile posted:I also unironically love the Amber books but I don't care much for authors' wishes about other people not writing in 'their' universes--the idea that ideas can be 'owned' or that they should be is something I find really toxic. Zelazny's been dead for like twenty years but Amber is a surprisingly durable creation for all its many flaws. Where would our culture be if Malory said "no I don't want anyone else writing about King Arthur" and people listened to that? I think it would be disrespectful of the man while he was alive, but he doesn't own the path that culture takes in the future, and neither does Disney or anyone else. Bad example, since Malory didn't invent King Arthur or even many Arthurian stories; his book was mostly a synthesis of existing French material.
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Feb 18, 2016 17:01
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occamsnailfile posted:I also unironically love the Amber books but I don't care much for authors' wishes about other people not writing in 'their' universes--the idea that ideas can be 'owned' or that they should be is something I find really toxic. Zelazny's been dead for like twenty years but Amber is a surprisingly durable creation for all its many flaws. Where would our culture be if Malory said "no I don't want anyone else writing about King Arthur" and people listened to that? I think it would be disrespectful of the man while he was alive, but he doesn't own the path that culture takes in the future, and neither does Disney or anyone else. Books written in a universe that was created by another writer is usually fanfic quality at best. Also, I also enjoyed the Amber Chronicles, but they're not even in the same category as Arthurian legend.
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Feb 18, 2016 17:09
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XBenedict posted:I remember really liking Ringworld. She was great in Sixteen Candles, but I never really got Pretty in Pink.
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Feb 18, 2016 17:58
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The Slithery D posted:She was great in Sixteen Candles, but I never really got Pretty in Pink. lol
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Feb 18, 2016 17:59
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Silver2195 posted:Bad example, since Malory didn't invent King Arthur or even many Arthurian stories; his book was mostly a synthesis of existing French material. And Corwin ruled over the land of "Avalon" and his son is named "Merlin." That's just a few among the many, many uses of existing western mythological material that Zelazny synthesized to make Amber. Nothing springs forth uniquely from the ether. Even "outsider art" pieces show some influences from the world around them...though it may be a much more limited world than the mainstream. XBenedict posted:
So the Wild Cards are fanfic quality at best? Sherlock? A Study in Emerald? Most SF and most novels are "fanfic quality at best", that being "derisive term for writing I don't like." Are the KJA/Brian Herbert Dune novels in this category? People seemed to keep buying what they were selling for a long time. "Arthurian legend" is in the space it occupies because it's had a thousand years and a thousand authors to make it so. I am not arguing that Amber is, should, or would ever be like that. It's also not some special snowflake that deserves a glass dome on a pedestal forever. I probably wouldn't even read followup Amber material--I never could get through the Merlin books even. I just think it has as much right to exist as any other form of lovely content.
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Feb 18, 2016 19:20
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occamsnailfile posted:So the Wild Cards are fanfic quality at best? That's a lovely bundle, though.
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Feb 18, 2016 19:29
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chrisoya posted:This may be a bad example to use. Zelazny was one of the original members of the Wild Cards Collective, so it's a pretty good example.
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Feb 18, 2016 19:41
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Has anyone read live free and die by John Ringo? I wanted to give it a go since the whole maple syrup war angle sounded funny but my god I just got to the bit when all the blondes in the world now go into heat every month because of aliens. I'm embarrassed to be reading this. Also I'm guessing Ringo is a member of the tea party?
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Feb 18, 2016 20:26
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by.a.teammate posted:Has anyone read live free and die by John Ringo? I wanted to give it a go since the whole maple syrup war angle sounded funny but my god I just got to the bit when all the blondes in the world now go into heat every month because of aliens. I'm embarrassed to be reading this. Also I'm guessing Ringo is a member of the tea party? Google the phrase "oh John Ringo no". Ringo knows exactly how bad a writer John Ringo is, and John Ringo doesn't care.
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Feb 18, 2016 20:30
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Yes, I've read Ringo. Don't. I don't know if he's a Tea Partier, but he wrote a book where a true American hero saves and arms dozens of naked American schoolgirls who have been kidnapped by Osama bin laden and converts them to praising Fox News, then presents the president with osama's severed head. Things go downhill from there, or uphill if you like cruxshadows.
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Feb 18, 2016 20:33
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Jedit posted:Zelazny was one of the original members of the Wild Cards Collective, so it's a pretty good example. The point is that Wild Cards is fanfic-quality because it's not very good. by.a.teammate posted:Has anyone read live free and die by John Ringo? I wanted to give it a go since the whole maple syrup war angle sounded funny but my god I just got to the bit when all the blondes in the world now go into heat every month because of aliens. I'm embarrassed to be reading this. Also I'm guessing Ringo is a member of the tea party? Yes, and also far worse things. Live Free and Die is probably one of his problematic series, though. His Ghost series is about a self-insert pedophile rapist (literally no exaggeration here)
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Feb 18, 2016 20:33
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He did at least feel bad about brutally raping the child prostitute before saving the world from nuclear terrorists again. He's still better than Kratman!
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Feb 18, 2016 20:34
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As in, a self-insert who rapes children, or a pedophile who rapes self-inserts?
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Feb 18, 2016 20:34
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anilEhilated posted:As in, a self-insert who rapes children, or a pedophile who rapes self-inserts?
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Feb 18, 2016 20:35
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occamsnailfile posted:Are the KJA/Brian Herbert Dune novels in this category? People seemed to keep buying what they were selling for a long time. I've read actual fanfiction that was more interesting than Prelude to Dune, but both of them have an audience, and I won't disparage that.
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Feb 18, 2016 20:38
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occamsnailfile posted:I also unironically love the Amber books but I don't care much for authors' wishes about other people not writing in 'their' universes--the idea that ideas can be 'owned' or that they should be is something I find really toxic. Zelazny's been dead for like twenty years but Amber is a surprisingly durable creation for all its many flaws. Where would our culture be if Malory said "no I don't want anyone else writing about King Arthur" and people listened to that? I think it would be disrespectful of the man while he was alive, but he doesn't own the path that culture takes in the future, and neither does Disney or anyone else. This is because Arthurian romance was not the product of a single person, but a cycle of stories derived from myth and expanded on by later authors. This worked because they could approach these stories as a common cultural repertoire on which to draw. Modern literature is written, in a very definite way, differently: we create idiosyncratic literature, and we read stories as unique acts of creation. We very concretely approach literature in a different way. Thus stories have become different. Continuing someone else's stories will always be an act of transgression because even the authors consider it so. This is why they end up writing fan-fiction most of the time: because they cannot treat modern literature as a common cultural repertoire. They're taking someone's idiosyncratic creations. You don't want Zelazny stories, you want more products to consume. e: And we actually an still approach stories as a common cultural repertoire instead of fan-fiction, where it's possible to share stories and ideas without overwriting or stealing the works of others We call this 'non-fiction'. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 20:43
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Supposedly Ringo only published the first book of the Paladin of Shadows series because his fans clamored for it, and he himself has admitted it's not really something a sane person should be writing or reading. He's self-conscious about it which is more than most can say.
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Feb 18, 2016 20:48
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I recently read This Census Taker (wasn't it 'The Census Taker' a while ago?) and quite enjoyed it, even if it's not in the same vein as many of his other books. If Mieville is trying to write a book in a different genre each time, he's certainly succeeding. A slower, more unresolved story about a boy who lives on a mountain with his father that focuses on atmosphere more than it does on concrete explanations. One of the things I liked a lot was how everything in the world is just slightly askew, from the fact the narrator tells us the book isn't written in his first language, to how the seasons are named differently, to the fact that when you hear guns in the distance there is a sound for hunting, and a sound for killing. And, of course, the rubbish hole. There's some marvelously creepy stuff that goes on in there, but as is usual with these books a lot of it is going to end up unexplained and never quite crosses from 'unsettling' to 'horrifying. There's enough to give you some worrying vibes about the eponymous character especially given that Drobe seems to have previously been in contact with the previous assistant, the father's fury and fear considering that all of them should have been deactivated, and, of course, The Hope Is So: Count Entire Nations. Subsume Under Sets. Take Accounts. Keep Estimates. Realize Interests. So. but it's a short book, and none of it is developed too much further. It's kind of a shame! I'm looking forwards to The Last Days of New Paris, but even in Three Moments of an Explosion there were a lot of stories that seemed to stop before the ending.
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Feb 18, 2016 20:49
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Crashbee posted:The Demolished Man is a must-read if you liked The Stars My Destination. My question is, how do they pull off the special typesetting that pops up his books? Graphics?
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Feb 18, 2016 20:58
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Antti posted:Supposedly Ringo only published the first book of the Paladin of Shadows series because his fans clamored for it, and he himself has admitted it's not really something a sane person should be writing or reading. He's self-conscious about it which is more than most can say. Much like the story that it's really just Kratmann the Nazi sympathizer who resurrected the SS to fight space dinosaurs, there's an immense element of polite fiction with which to delude yourself here. I don't think he's self-conscious, I think he deliberately jokes about it to avoid serious criticism - to say "heh yeah I acknowledge that heh sure" without ever having to confront just what, exactly, he's responsible for. It's putting out a fig leaf so people have an excuse not to believe the worst because the alternative - believing the worst - is unpalatable. "Oh I just wrote this book to get it out of my system, it's bad, whatever" - and then he writes five sequels. He writes a book where his "coauthor" is the Nazi apologist, but he put his name and imprimatur on that work - it wasn't just him putting his name there for fun, he was involved in that work, and yes, he's culpable. Like I said - it's deflection. Psion fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 21:04
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RoboCicero posted:It's kind of a shame! I'm looking forwards to The Last Days of New Paris, but even in Three Moments of an Explosion there were a lot of stories that seemed to stop before the ending. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 21:36
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holocaust bloopers posted:I've read a few books by Niven. They're big budget disaster epics with broadly drawn characters that adhere to a strict mold. Lucifer's Hammer was enjoyable, A Mote In God's Eye was fun. Football is a slog of constantly shifting storylines. Many of which are thoroughly boring. Unfortunately he ran out of ideas at some point, though people disagree exactly when - some say his last good story is Ringworld (1970), I'd personally allow Ringworld Engineeers and up to The Patchworld Girl (1980). Pretty much everyone agrees that everything on from Oath of Fealty (another Pournell collaboration, this time a Libertarian-run arcology) is trash, with perhaps a few exceptions.
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Feb 18, 2016 22:33
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Just in case you need to set your eyes on the text of the Ghost series to confirm to yourself that, yes, John Ringo is a very hosed up individual writing about a Gary Sue who sexually assaults 12 year olds there's a Let's Read of it over in TFR. First thread is in Archives. Let's Read: John Ringo's Ghost Kildar and beyond...
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Feb 18, 2016 23:28
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I started Declare by Tim Powers last night. I have no idea what to expect.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:33
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by.a.teammate posted:Has anyone read live free and die by John Ringo? I wanted to give it a go since the whole maple syrup war angle sounded funny but my god I just got to the bit when all the blondes in the world now go into heat every month because of aliens. I'm embarrassed to be reading this. Also I'm guessing Ringo is a member of the tea party? Ringo is a Bad Writer, but for what it's worth the Johansen's Worm stuff in the first book is as objectionable as the series gets. The other two books aren't even really about Tyler, he's a background character. The POV shifts to a naval shuttle pilot during the run-up on getting Troy fully operational. They are almost entirely about space mailmen delivering the mail (where 'mail' is space marines  ). With a decent side of big-rear end engineering.Just, if you're going to read other series by him, research before going in. Legacy of the Aldenata has some nerd cheese pandering but is generally okay if you want 'gently caress yeah' power armor pulp for example, but God help you if you pick up the Paladin of Shadows books. I didn't spot anything wrong with the Looking Glass books (I suppose the Anime Zone stuff could annoy some people but I thought it was funny), and Princess/Queen of Wands were pretty decent. WarLocke fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 23:58
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occamsnailfile posted:So the Wild Cards are fanfic quality at best? Sherlock? A Study in Emerald? Most SF and most novels are "fanfic quality at best", that being "derisive term for writing I don't like." Are the KJA/Brian Herbert Dune novels in this category? People seemed to keep buying what they were selling for a long time. Those books are all bad, yes Solitair posted:I've read actual fanfiction that was more interesting than Prelude to Dune, but both of them have an audience, and I won't disparage that. I think you should disparage anyone stupid enough to read that crap
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Feb 19, 2016 00:06
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Piell posted:The point is that Wild Cards is fanfic-quality because it's not very good. Like any other shared world series, Wild Cards is good or bad depending on who's writing it. Yes, there's a lot of crap in there, but there's also amazing things like Stephen Leigh's Oddity story in Fort Freak. I'm not going to call you out for not being willing to go mining for it, mind.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:19
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