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UberJew posted:what encrypted fbi databases 
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Feb 19, 2016 00:38
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Apple should just provide them with an OS that causes it to fry itself or brick it and say, "well we tried our best sorry, but we did intend for this to be nigh impossible when we designed it."icantfindaname posted:
Well yeah but if a Democrat wins the general they'd probably relish the opportunity to stick it to them. UberJew posted:what encrypted fbi databases I'd like to assume there's some modicum of security being utilized at the FBI, though I'm slowly coming to realize what a stupid assumption this may have been
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Feb 19, 2016 00:40
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if you think the FBI/US government in general doesn't already give Israel whatever info it wants on anything at any time
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foobardog posted:Oh, I know it can definitely be distinguished, I'm just more interested in the comparison. Basically, if this wouldn't even fly for a normal landlord, there's little evidence it should now apply in the digital case. I guess part of my argument was that this kind of situation is kind of without real-world comparison, but I'm also really interested in what a LawGoon has to about other situations where someone is forced to lend assistance to police. icantfindaname posted:
The FBI is kinda pissed at Israel because they keep spying on the US (see: trying to bug Al Gore while he was VP), but they also don't actively dissuade them and are complicit in pretending it never happens, so, pretty much!
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Feb 19, 2016 00:45
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Epic High Five posted:I'd like to assume there's some modicum of security being utilized at the FBI, though I'm slowly coming to realize what a stupid assumption this may have been To make that reference i was quoting explicit that is a very silly assumption on your part.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:45
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Combed Thunderclap posted:I guess part of my argument was that this kind of situation is kind of without real-world comparison, but I'm also really interested in what a LawGoon has to about other situations where someone is forced to lend assistance to police.! Yeah, it really shouldn't matter, and you're right, comparing the two requires insane stretches of the situation to make it misleading at best, but considering that judges often seem to be a bit behind in understanding technology, I'm sure that it will be explained and decided based on existing analogies. 
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Feb 19, 2016 00:49
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How would this apply to open source encryption tools? Even if one was mandated couldn't pre-mandate installations of encryption programs be circulated? This is obviously only PC-side but could also potentially apply to jailbroken iPhonesUberJew posted:To make that reference i was quoting explicit that is a very silly assumption on your part. 
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Feb 19, 2016 00:53
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icantfindaname posted:
Man, Pollard really got hosed then.
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Feb 19, 2016 00:58
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I dunno, not having having him hanged seems like enough of a concession.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:00
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Epic High Five posted:Apple should just provide them with an OS that causes it to fry itself or brick it and say, "well we tried our best sorry, but we did intend for this to be nigh impossible when we designed it." As hilarious as that would be, this plan does rely on none of the government's tech people being able to look at your trojan horse and figure out that there's something funny about it, and also on all the Apple engineers that work on said program never deciding to talk to someone at the FBI, or the media, or to brag to their friends about it at a bar. Not impossible, but highly improbable.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:08
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BobTheJanitor posted:As hilarious as that would be, this plan does rely on none of the government's tech people being able to look at your trojan horse and figure out that there's something funny about it, and also on all the Apple engineers that work on said program never deciding to talk to someone at the FBI, or the media, or to brag to their friends about it at a bar. Not impossible, but highly improbable. Good news, they promised not to tear it apart to copy down all the bits so they can replicate it on a larger scale, so they'll obviously never figure out if there's any rogue bits of code requesting the battery wash every electrical component in the highest voltage the battery can produce! edit - if we get lucky it may just ramp up battery usage and overheat spontaneously, as my last iPhone was fond of doing
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Feb 19, 2016 01:11
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Wait, as far as I know the FBI, in this specific case, isn't asking for any type of backdoor to encryption. They want Apple to 1) disable the "10 failed pin unlock attempts and the phone wipes itself" setting in iOS 8+ and 2) develop a method where they can problematically brute force force the PIN unlock without having to manually enter it. They aren't discussing touching the underlying mechanics of encryption at all, just making a (unreasonable) request to have Apple make it so they can attempt to smash the front door in first.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:19
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Epic High Five posted:Good news, they promised not to tear it apart to copy down all the bits so they can replicate it on a larger scale, so they'll obviously never figure out if there's any rogue bits of code requesting the battery wash every electrical component in the highest voltage the battery can produce! Yes I am certain that the FBI wouldn't ever want this highly useful backdoor in the future. We can trust them on this, scout's honor! 
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Feb 19, 2016 01:20
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hobbesmaster posted:if(uuid != PHONE_UUID_HERE) { That would change the hash of the software and the cryptographicly signed "ok to install software with hash Y on phone X" won't work anymore. They would need apple's encryption key to make it work. Combed Thunderclap posted:I guess part of my argument was that this kind of situation is kind of without real-world comparison, but I'm also really interested in what a LawGoon has to about other situations where someone is forced to lend assistance to police. Under US v NY Telecom it seems like it might be OK to force them to comply. The big question is how much weight the present courts will give the following: quote:Turning to the facts of this case, we do not think that the Company was a third party so far removed from the underlying controversy that its assistance could not be permissibly compelled. A United States District Court found that there was probable cause to believe that the Company's facilities were being employed to facilitate a criminal enterprise on a continuing basis. For the Company, with this knowledge, to refuse to supply the meager assistance required by the FBI in its efforts to put an end to this venture threatened obstruction of an investigation which would determine whether the Company's facilities were being lawfully used. Moreover, it can hardly be contended that the Company, a highly regulated public utility with a duty to serve the public, [Footnote 21] had a substantial interest in not providing assistance. Certainly the use of pen registers is by no means offensive to it. The Company concedes that it regularly employs such devices without court order for the purposes of checking billing operations, detecting fraud, and preventing violations of law. [Footnote 22] It also agreed to supply the FBI with all the information required to install its own pen registers. Nor was the District Court's order in any way burdensome. The order provided that the Company be fully reimbursed at prevailing rates, and compliance with it required minimal effort on the part of the Company and no disruption to its operations I would argue that what Apple is being asked to do is not "meager assistance", nor is asking them to take a bunch of iOS programmers off internal development work on iOS10 "minimal effort".
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Feb 19, 2016 01:28
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duz posted:Yes, people seem to not notice the gov't isn't asking Apple for the keys, they know Apple doesn't have them. They're asking Apple to weaken the security in situ. As soon as Apple does it, China is going to demand a copy and coincidentally many VIPs in China suddenly get robbed of their iPhones. China could just demand it as is though. Like it's clear already that Apple has the technical capability to do this.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:35
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Paul MaudDib posted:John McAfee has had nothing to do with the eponymous antivirus software since he sold it like 20 years ago. He now spends his days doing bath salts from the asscracks of his harem of strippers. There's a great Slashdot interview that really sets the tone appropriately. Yeah but it was still a lovely antivirus back when he was in charge. WhiskeyJuvenile posted:China could just demand it as is though. Like it's clear already that Apple has the technical capability to do this. Yes, their entire setup for the "security" environment allows Apple to do this, and it's entirely possible they've done it in the past, or had an infiltrator to the organization make use of the ability.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:38
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:China could just demand it as is though. Like it's clear already that Apple has the technical capability to do this. China and russia already demand similar access to every device possible, and Apple/Google tell them to gently caress off. I don't see why this would be any different. Edit: This is a really good description of what is involved in encryption on the iphone http://www.darthnull.org/2014/10/06/ios-encryption . It sounds like there may be a hardware level delay on the phone unlocking mechanism, so it's unclear what service Apple can provide to the FBI. If it were impossible though, you think they'd protest based on that rather than "We think it's a bad idea". A Man With A Plan fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 01:43
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foobardog posted:Hmmm. That makes this seem a bit similar to a landlord not giving up their keys to let the police in. Do they have a duty to do so? With a court order? Yeah.
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Feb 19, 2016 01:43
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Watch nothing be on the phone lol
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Feb 19, 2016 02:15
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A Man With A Plan posted:China and russia already demand similar access to every device possible, and Apple/Google tell them to gently caress off. I don't see why this would be any different. With the phone model they're asking about, Apple can use their signing key to sign a modified copy of iOS, which could be put onto the phone to get around the lock. Due to the way Apple set up the "security" stuff, this is possible for the same reason that they can put a regular updated version of the OS on a locked phone at an Apple store.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:22
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fishmech posted:With the phone model they're asking about, Apple can use their signing key to sign a modified copy of iOS, which could be put onto the phone to get around the lock. Due to the way Apple set up the "security" stuff, this is possible for the same reason that they can put a regular updated version of the OS on a locked phone at an Apple store. Is the phone a 5 or 5s? 5s is when they changed to the A7 chip, which if I'm reading right, has a hardware delay. Booting off a different signed OS won't affect that. eta: Regular iPhone 5 per LA Times. Makes it somewhat more feasible. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-fbi-apple-san-bernardino-phone-20160216-story.html
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Feb 19, 2016 02:32
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Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes on Cuba policy change:quote:Cuba is only 90 miles from Florida, but for a long time the distance between our two countries seemed a lot greater. For more than fifty years, the United States pursued a policy of isolating and pressuring Cuba. While the policy was rooted in the context of the Cold War, our efforts continued long after the rest of the world had changed. Put simply, U.S. Cuba policy wasn’t working and was well beyond its expiration date. Cuba’s political system did not change.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:35
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Canadians gonna be super pissed that they're going to lose a nice tropical vacation spot that they know will be free of American tourists. Not only will it be overrun, it'll be overrun by Floridian snowbirds
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Feb 19, 2016 02:38
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Important note re: Apple/FBI: San Bernadino County owns the phone; it was the shooter's work phone.
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Feb 19, 2016 02:49
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Important note re: Apple/FBI: San Bernadino County owns the phone; it was the shooter's work phone. How do they not have a loving MDM or even an exchange server setup that gives them overrides? That's loving stupid on San Bernadino's part.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:02
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UberJew posted:what encrypted fbi databases Every day the GOP mentions Hillary's (damned) emails, I can't help but marvel at the irony that- between Wikileaks, Snowden, John Kiriakou, China, and India; She's probably the only top level position/agency in the last decade that hasn't suffered a breach of security.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:15
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A Man With A Plan posted:Is the phone a 5 or 5s? 5s is when they changed to the A7 chip, which if I'm reading right, has a hardware delay. Booting off a different signed OS won't affect that. Yeah, it's specifically possible because the phone is just old enough. Doing this on just a one model later phone would require a whole different sort of thing, if possible at all.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:15
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:With a court order? Yeah. I see. Welp, the FBI are probably going to get their wish here unless Congress makes a law (ha!) or someone activist judges. Though it'll be fun when someone else figures it out and then Apple gets sued for having poor security on their phones.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:17
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foobardog posted:I see. Welp, the FBI are probably going to get their wish here unless Congress makes a law (ha!) or someone activist judges. Well what you need to "figure out" is just Apple's security keys. All sorts of products out there are wide open when you have the master signing keys, which is why companies work so hard to try to protect them.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:29
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GreyjoyBastard posted:That recent? Huh. Guess mainlanders really are lazy. You mean the country that had to import a new set of Buddhist bhikkus from Burma not once, but twice because they lost so many over time that it became impossible to ordain new monks? (Ironically, the second time came just over 100 years after literally ordaining monks for Burma for the same reason)
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Feb 19, 2016 03:39
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If we are going to talk the encryption fight, I really recommend watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg He spins it in larger terms of copyright and ownership, but the core idea is still incredibly relevant here (and he gets into it ~20 mins in, though he gives it in a more roundabout way earlier). Mandating a backdoor in encryption is the inverse of mandating DRM, with the exact same problems. More, really - You can do encryption with a math textbook and a complier. After all, encryption/decryption was the first task computers were ever used for. So mandating a backdoor is about as effective as mandating mosquito don't bite. It is asking for computers to act as appliances - only do exactly what they want, rather than be a general purpose computer. The only way to make it happen is malware and snitchware on everything. Surveillance and censorship is the only way on it. And coincidentally those same tools will do a hell of a lot to lock in the existing oligarchic power structure, and allow carving new monopolies across all industries. This poo poo isn't good.
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Feb 19, 2016 05:40
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Fried Chicken posted:If we are going to talk the encryption fight, I really recommend watching this This runs alongside my first question, which was "well what about open source encryption software? How do you mandate a backdoor into that?"
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Feb 19, 2016 05:56
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Epic High Five posted:This runs alongside my first question, which was "well what about open source encryption software? How do you mandate a backdoor into that?" You make open source encryption illegal. SWAT raids for every nerd or activist possessing it. A boot stamping on a human face, forever.
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Feb 19, 2016 05:58
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Guy Montag posted:You make open source encryption illegal. SWAT raids for every nerd or activist possessing it. A boot stamping on a human face, forever. What if I provide a backdoor, but it's something super unpleasant. Like, it's hooked up to a biomonitor and only unlocks when I climax, and I have a very specific kink where I can only climax if manually masturbated by an FBI agent Am I still technically in the clear?
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Feb 19, 2016 06:00
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I missed the super unpleasant part about that backdoor.
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Feb 19, 2016 06:07
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i thought the GoP was opposed to going in backdoors or was that just catholics
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Feb 19, 2016 06:25
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Tiler Kiwi posted:i thought the GoP was opposed to going in backdoors True Christians build bridges, not walls.
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Feb 19, 2016 06:27
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Joementum posted:True Christians build bridges, not walls. Will the wall have a backdoor, though?
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Feb 19, 2016 06:30
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Mister Macys posted:Every day the GOP mentions Hillary's (damned) emails, I can't help but marvel at the irony that- between Wikileaks, Snowden, John Kiriakou, China, and India; She's probably the only top level position/agency in the last decade that hasn't suffered a breach of security. The joke really doesn't hold, though. Snowden worked for the agency and didn't "breach" security, a lot of Wikileaks was based off of having contacts within said agencies who just handed over the documents. A better example is China's hacking breach, which is also mentioned Dead Cosmonaut fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 06:39
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Holy balls http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2324 GOP vs Clinton share of the white vote Trump: +16 Bush +17 Cruz +19 Rubio +23 Kasich +27 That isn't a typo for Kasich. Thank christ he won't be the nominee. Romney beat Obama on the white vote 59-39. All of the total percents going to each republican is less than that. But Hillary is down from Obama's 39% as well, which is really dangerous to the idea that she would do better that Obama did with whites. This is going to be a squeaker.
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Feb 19, 2016 07:00
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Epic High Five posted:This runs alongside my first question, which was "well what about open source encryption software? How do you mandate a backdoor into that?" he covers that in the Q&A, basically that they will come at it hardware side, and the only solution for us will be a clean supply chain that won't be compromised with parts that brick rather than run unapproved software. Couple that to a Kim Dotcom/Aaron Schwartz style legal targeting for major developers in the open source community and you can strangle it.
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Feb 19, 2016 07:02
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