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DarklyDreaming posted:The only bit of superhero fiction I recall (Though there's probably a dozen others I'm forgetting) that really made a big deal about analyzing this kind of morality are the first 2 seasons of Arrow. Where you had Ollie straight up murdering every lesser mook in his way and making named villains suffer in decrepit prisons with broken bodies and shattered spirits. Then people started getting caught in the crossfire and he tried a blanket No-Kill Policy only to realize that sometimes it is impossible to stop someone from being an active threat without killing them but sometimes it is also very possible to stop a criminal without killing them and you should always look for the second option when applicable. Not a comic book but Justified did a bit of this as well. The main character gets called out several times to the fact that he deliberately antagonises the bad guys to draw on him. He's quicker and better trained so he always pulls through but the stand offs could have definitely ended more peacefully if someone else was there.
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Feb 16, 2016 11:24
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:As long as the Punisher is treated as a villain the entire series, it should be fantastic. Why? He is the very definition of vigilante.
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Feb 16, 2016 11:40
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The problem with the Punisher isn't that he kills people sometimes, it's that he kills people every time. I mean sure, superheroes have magic plot powers of never accidentally killing anybody, but at the same time the punisher has the magic plot power of presumably never accidentally killing an innocent person, or a person who didn't do anything anywhere near deserving of the death penalty. Punisher has a thing against drug dealers and gangsters in particular - sure, there's some real terrible gangsters and drug dealers out there, but there's also a lot of them who are just a product of their environment and might not have even really had any other options in life and certainly don't deserve to get executed in cold blood. Honestly I wouldn't be bothered with a hero-type who kill people sometimes, the real terrible ones who really deserve it and would go on to continue to cause a lot of harm to people regardless of how many times you've tried to avoid killing them (see : the joker), but punisher goes way, way beyond that, putting him more in 'serial killer' or 'villain' territory.
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Feb 16, 2016 12:50
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The problem with Punisher, nothing. He's a trained killer that murks mooks.
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Feb 16, 2016 13:05
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Apparently I accidentally unbookmarked the Daredevil thread, and can't find it anymore. Anyone have a link to it?
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Feb 16, 2016 14:46
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10 Beers posted:Apparently I accidentally unbookmarked the Daredevil thread, and can't find it anymore. Anyone have a link to it? This is it. It was renamed when Jessica Jones came out. Unless you are joking, in which case, hardy-har.
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Feb 16, 2016 14:48
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Snak posted:This is it. It was renamed when Jessica Jones came out. Oh, haha, well that would explain it then! Thanks! I wasn't joking, but I realized after I posted it could be taken thst way.
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Feb 16, 2016 14:54
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I just assumed he was mad about all the Punisher chat. Incidentally I hope s2 is the Punisher show, with Daredevil showing up once or twice an episode.
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Feb 16, 2016 15:20
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counterfeitsaint posted:I just assumed he was mad about all the Punisher chat. The only reason I don't hope this is that The Punisher is likely to get his own show, and it would be a bit much to have him hijack DD and then have his own series.
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Feb 16, 2016 15:22
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Snak posted:The only reason I don't hope this is that The Punisher is likely to get his own show, and it would be a bit much to have him hijack DD and then have his own series. That said I could live with it. Kidding aside I'm sure it will be balanced out with Electra anyway (this was a Punisher based trailer anyway and a second one is still forthcoming). Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Feb 16, 2016 |
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Feb 16, 2016 15:30
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counterfeitsaint posted:I just assumed he was mad about all the Punisher chat. That's what I want JJ S2 to be. Just make it Hellcat S1.
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Feb 16, 2016 21:43
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Alright that's it Matthew I'm kinkshaming you.
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Feb 19, 2016 03:55
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Wow, they are really pulling on the tails of the fetish types aren't they
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Feb 19, 2016 04:12
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Wonder if they're gonna do the scene from the Garth Ennis Punisher storyline. Fake edit - Scene in question
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Feb 19, 2016 04:15
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Medullah posted:Wonder if they're gonna do the scene from the Garth Ennis Punisher storyline. That would rule. I know JJ took some scenes straight from the comic down to staging panels in certain shots, but I can't recall if there was anything like that in DD. Also dudes tied to trees writhing in agony is very common catholic iconography.
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Feb 19, 2016 05:26
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Wolpertinger posted:The problem with the Punisher isn't that he kills people sometimes, it's that he kills people every time. I mean sure, superheroes have magic plot powers of never accidentally killing anybody, but at the same time the punisher has the magic plot power of presumably never accidentally killing an innocent person, or a person who didn't do anything anywhere near deserving of the death penalty. Punisher has a thing against drug dealers and gangsters in particular - sure, there's some real terrible gangsters and drug dealers out there, but there's also a lot of them who are just a product of their environment and might not have even really had any other options in life and certainly don't deserve to get executed in cold blood. Yeah. The Punisher would totally kill the kids from The Wire, and that's why he's a villain. WHERE WALLACE AT, HUH, PUNISHER!?
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Feb 19, 2016 05:49
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why the gently caress is that not Tom Jane
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Feb 19, 2016 07:21
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Four Score posted:why the gently caress is that not Tom Jane He's busy doing laundry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWpK0wsnitc
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Feb 19, 2016 07:29
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zoux posted:That would rule. I know JJ took some scenes straight from the comic down to staging panels in certain shots, but Didn't we see a preview shot of DD chained to a chimney? Just putting it out there, we probably want a new thread title.
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Feb 19, 2016 12:24
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Rocksicles posted:He's busy doing laundry I'm not totally in love with that video, it ditches the retro the 80's action thriller vibe which made the concept of the Punisher enjoyable for regular human beings for the gritty Garth Ennis hallmark hyper-violence with undertones of racism I can't stand. Still, I'm really gay for Tom Jane and, to answer my own question he's probably busy filming Syfy's "The Expanse" which is awesome and you should watch Four Score fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 12:58
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My Punisher is hyper violent, not an 80's action hero.
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Feb 19, 2016 13:29
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Four Score posted:why the gently caress is that not Tom Jane Tom Jane is killing it in a great loving show right now (The Expanse), just let him have this, he's not used to success
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Feb 19, 2016 13:48
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Medullah posted:Wonder if they're gonna do the scene from the Garth Ennis Punisher storyline. I hope they do do that scene but have Daredevil not fire, because why would he? If he'd do anything it's escape and take Castle down at the cost of Gnucci's life since one has to be taken either way, not fire and kill Punisher instead instead of Gnucci. It serves as a better way to highlight the difference between Castle and Murdock for one thing and Matt has already come face to face with the decision of whether to kill or not with Kingpin and backed away from it so having him kill in that situation would just be weird.
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Feb 19, 2016 13:48
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Rocksicles posted:My Punisher is hyper violent, not an 80's action hero. You can be both.
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Feb 19, 2016 13:57
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gfanikf posted:You can be both. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRAT1-c7q98
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Feb 19, 2016 14:49
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I think The Punisher is a great idea for a comic book universe. He's a logical extreme. I can't stand whenever he's painted as 100% right though. Even if you agree with that viewpoint, you have to admit that it makes the other 99% of the universe look stupid. Bad idea if you want me to buy your poo poo. And if you sided with the dorks over Superman in What's So Funny, I don't understand you at all. EDIT: I hope the whole season isn't Foggy and Karen being lil bitches. Karen was pretty insufferable by the end of S1. SonicRulez fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 15:12
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BizarroAzrael posted:Just putting it out there, we probably want a new thread title. If we don't finally get the Avocados At Law title, it's a goddamn travesty.
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Feb 19, 2016 16:20
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If the real world had to put up with the murder-crazy crazy murderers and the 100% ineffectual police that exist in comics there'd probably be a dozen "Punishers" in every city and town.
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Feb 19, 2016 17:09
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Kibayasu posted:If the real world had to put up with the murder-crazy crazy murderers and the 100% ineffectual police that exist in comics there'd probably be a dozen "Punishers" in every city and town. Clearly they need to make a new hero that fights the murder-crazy police we have now!
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Feb 19, 2016 17:33
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Light Gun Man posted:Clearly they need to make a new hero that fights the murder-crazy police we have now! If only there was a person who, despite being an ethnic minority, wasn't able to be killed by the police.
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Feb 19, 2016 17:40
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Snak posted:I like The Punisher because I dislike the "loophole" of "non-lethal violence" which "good guy" vigilantes get to use to be total badasses without being bad people. Somehow. If you want to cheer when good guys brutalize bad guys because they deserve it, but you are only okay with it because genre magic allows an easily crossable line to crossable only by choice, that's hosed up. It's the basis of our PG-13 mentality, where it is not violence which is objectionable, but the consequences of violence which make people uncomfortable. It is okay to show children that violence is a solution, but you should't show them what violence looks like show it as being psychologically traumatic, because that sort of thing is for adults. I agree with this 200%, but I have to say it's still less obnoxious than those shows where the hero actually cold-blooded murders a bunch of mooks to catch the big bad, and then pats himself on the back for refusing to murder the big bad. Genre magic might be a weak-sauce fig leaf but that's still better than the Emperor's new clothes. For comic book TV examples, I want to say Arrow had a lot of this? But Person of Interest is what's currently making me insane. Come on John, X would have never wanted you to kill the bad guy after she ambushed a dozen people with a grenade launcher last episode. Oh, this poor hit man wants to escape his life of violence? Better track down and assassinate everyone targeting him, who are probably all in the exact same position for all we know.
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Feb 19, 2016 18:44
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Snak posted:If only there was a person who, despite being an ethnic minority, wasn't able to be killed by the police. Superman is passing though.
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Feb 19, 2016 18:48
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McNerd posted:I agree with this 200%, but I have to say it's still less obnoxious than those shows where the hero actually cold-blooded murders a bunch of mooks to catch the big bad, and then pats himself on the back for refusing to murder the big bad. Genre magic might be a weak-sauce fig leaf but that's still better than the Emperor's new clothes. John shoots everyone in the knees.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:08
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Okay guys, I liked "Daredevil" but I avoided Jessica Jones because I am possibly sexist. Did I make a mistake? Is it in fact a good show?
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Feb 19, 2016 22:18
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zoux posted:John shoots everyone in the knees. gurney posted:Okay guys, I liked "Daredevil" but I avoided Jessica Jones because I am possibly sexist. Did I make a mistake? Is it in fact a good show? Yes, it's not very similar to Daredevil but watch anyway.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:18
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gurney posted:Okay guys, I liked "Daredevil" but I avoided Jessica Jones because I am possibly sexist. Did I make a mistake? Is it in fact a good show? It's pretty decent, yeah.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:25
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McNerd posted:Many people, but not everyone. In the first episode I alluded to (s3e10, admittedly a more violent rampage than usual) he definitely just plowed a truck through a car full of unsuspecting crooks and left them to burn to death in the ensuing explosion. I guarantee you everyone is intended to live in these shows, and they wouldn't just gloss over a major character moment like breaking a no kill vow without making it a whole big discussion. Like Oliver shoots so many people in what look like vital areas but for action and pacing issues they don't have him go over and say "aha once again right in the secret knockout safely nerve i learned about on ninja island". But I also can't recall that specific scene so maybe it was a big deal at the time. zoux fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Feb 19, 2016 |
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Feb 19, 2016 22:33
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gurney posted:Okay guys, I liked "Daredevil" but I avoided Jessica Jones because I am possibly sexist. Did I make a mistake? Is it in fact a good show? I feel like there's a pretty even split on which one people consider to be better, based on their personal taste. I personally like Jessica Jones more, but I don't necessarily expect other people to agree.
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Feb 19, 2016 22:35
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gurney posted:Okay guys, I liked "Daredevil" but I avoided Jessica Jones because I am possibly sexist. Did I make a mistake? Is it in fact a good show? you should let jessica jones.... inside of you
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Feb 19, 2016 22:36
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Thanks! Will give it a chance!
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Feb 19, 2016 22:42
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